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3 Dead in Shooting at University of Alabama Campus

deltabtry said:
absolutely not, it was the faculty that was solely involved BTW. Non the less this situation like this can not be stopped, somebody short circuiting is almost impossible to predict. Although if in a perfect world with this imperfect situation, if the facility was armed this may have been stopped instead of the cops arriving to body bag the dead. No easy answers to these problems.
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There are some that believe students should be armed. Sorry, I thought you were one of them.
I agree that when someone decides to commit an atrocity like this there is no stopping them. Most faculty do not want to be armed and I don't think you could force them. You are right, there are no easy answers to these problems.
 
Apocalypse said:
Though armed security guards in such cases are usually seconds away.
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You would have to have as many guards as civilians to be seconds away from everyone. Schools can be big places.
 
Apocalypse said:
Though armed security guards in such cases are usually seconds away.
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I agree with USA, you would have to have a guard for every student, bottom line is that these things will happen. Now in the real world as a adult conducting your daily affairs either at home, work or play, being armed definitely increases your chance of survivability in circumstances like this. Although when the rubber meets the road, it all depends on your ability and capability to act in a extreme stressful situation. This requires training on the same level as law enforcement and military, and a constant practice of it for your average Joe. Don't get me wrong I am a very strang believer for the seconf amendment and i believe it should unhindered by our government.
 
deltabtry said:
absolutely not, it was the faculty that was solely involved BTW. Non the less this situation like this can not be stopped, somebody short circuiting is almost impossible to predict. Although if in a perfect world with this imperfect situation, if the facility was armed this may have been stopped instead of the cops arriving to body bag the dead. No easy answers to these problems.
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Your statement that there is no easy answers to these problems is the best summation here.

I have guns but don't have a concealed permit. Have thought about it be just never did. I do train to fight and workout 6 days a week but if I was the first person to be shot that training is useless. Same if I had a pistol on me as the first victim doesn't stand a chance whether he is sitting with a uzi or is Jet Li.

Violence that pops up in the most unlikely places is always going to shock us. It is almost impossible to avoid. Some people just don't have that ability to respond quickly. Nobody really knows how one would react. I like to think I would figure I am dead anyway and charged her. Just as the old adage says," charge a gun and run from a knife" you may have a chance.

Had my neighbor's house catch on fire few years back. They were just mumbling zombies as I ran over and got in their car to back it down out of the driveway away from the roaring fire so it didn't catch and also to allow better access for the firemen.
 
Crosscheck said:
Your statement that there is no easy answers to these problems is the best summation here.

I have guns but don't have a concealed permit. Have thought about it be just never did. I do train to fight and workout 6 days a week but if I was the first person to be shot that training is useless. Same if I had a pistol on me as the first victim doesn't stand a chance whether he is sitting with a uzi or is Jet Li.

Violence that pops up in the most unlikely places is always going to shock us. It is almost impossible to avoid. Some people just don't have that ability to respond quickly. Nobody really knows how one would react. I like to think I would figure I am dead anyway and charged her. Just as the old adage says," charge a gun and run from a knife" you may have a chance.

Had my neighbor's house catch on fire few years back. They were just mumbling zombies as I ran over and got in their car to back it down out of the driveway away from the roaring fire so it didn't catch and also to allow better access for the firemen.
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Your dead on on this comment, those who can survive circumstances like this are the ones you have survived the first circumstance, then again maybe not,.
 
deltabtry said:
I agree with USA, you would have to have a guard for every student, bottom line is that these things will happen.
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No, not for every student, simply in the area of every student.
2-3 guards per building and you're covering the entire area in a response time of mere seconds.
Although when the rubber meets the road, it all depends on your ability and capability to act in a extreme stressful situation. This requires training on the same level as law enforcement and military, and a constant practice of it for your average Joe.
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My thought as well.
 
USA-1 said:
I know, but some think students should carry.
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I think any adult, age 21 and older, who has a concealed carry permit (which means a clean background and passing a class usually), should be allowed to carry on campus.

Why not? 40 states now have "shall issue" (easy to get) concealed carry permits, and NONE of those states have expereinced the "wild west bloodbath" predicted by CCW opponents.

Concealed carry in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

North Carolina reports only 0.2% of their 263,102 holders had their license revoked in the 10 years since they have adopted the law.[61]

Permit holders are a remarkably law-abiding subclass of the population. Florida, which has issued over 1,408,907 permits in twenty one years, has revoked only 166 for a "crime after licensure involving a firearm," and fewer than 4,500 permits for any reason.[62]
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There is no reason to believe that allowing responsible 21+ yo adults who have gone to the trouble of getting a CCW to carry on campus would result in trouble, than has been the case with the general population in 40 states that have shall-issue permits.

Allowing this would raise the chance of someone being able to give an armed response to such crimes in a timely fashion, by some percentage.
 
Goshin said:
I think any adult, age 21 and older, who has a concealed carry permit (which means a clean background and passing a class usually), should be allowed to carry on campus.
.
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So if Seung-Hui Cho had gotten a CCW permit he would have been legal right up to the point where he killed 32 people.
 
USA-1 said:
So if Seung-Hui Cho had gotten a CCW permit he would have been legal right up to the point where he killed 32 people.
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He WAS legal up to the point where he killed people. He bought his guns legally. To be honest, nothing save maybe a mental evaluation would have stopped him from getting guns legally, he was a normal law abiding guy. No reasonable gun measure I can think of would really have stopped him.
 
the makeout hobo said:
He WAS legal up to the point where he killed people. He bought his guns legally. To be honest, nothing save maybe a mental evaluation would have stopped him from getting guns legally, he was a normal law abiding guy. No reasonable gun measure I can think of would really have stopped him.
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I thought the perp was a she?
 
the makeout hobo said:
He WAS legal up to the point where he killed people. He bought his guns legally. To be honest, nothing save maybe a mental evaluation would have stopped him from getting guns legally, he was a normal law abiding guy. No reasonable gun measure I can think of would really have stopped him.
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Actually the carrying of a weapon on school property was illegal. Also he did not have a CCW permit.
I agree that there probably was no way to stop him. Armed faculty members may or may not have reduced the number of casualties.
 
USA-1 said:
So if Seung-Hui Cho had gotten a CCW permit he would have been legal right up to the point where he killed 32 people.
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Show me a few cases where someone with a CCW has committed a mass shooting and you might have some point. It hasn't happened. Nor have laws forbidding guns on campus stopped any person determined to commit mass murder, so your point is utterly moot.

I refer again to the fact, which I posted with sources, that CCW holders are far more law abiding than the general citizenry and that that tiny portion which commit gun crimes is far lower than that of the general citizenry. Statistically you are far safer in the company of 10 CCW permit holders than you are in the company of ten random strangers.


I can just imagine some criminal, armed to the teeth and intent on committing mass-murder, arriving to find a sign saying "No Guns Allowed", then scuffing his feet and saying "Darn it, I guess I will have to go somewhere else." :rofl

My point stands: statistically there is no reason to believe that allowing adult CCW on campus would increase risks at all, and there is the possibility of saving lives the next time one of these mass-shooters goes off.
 
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ptif219 said:
Sad news.


3 Dead in Shooting at University of Alabama Campus - Local News | News Articles | National News | US News - FOXNews.com

Officials at the University of Alabama's Huntsville campus say three people have been killed and another injured in a campus shooting.

University spokesman Ray Garner says a woman is in custody but he could not identify her or any of the victims.

Sophomore Erin Johnson tells The Huntsville Times a biology faculty meeting was under way when she heard screams coming from the room.

The shooting happened Friday afternoon in the university's Shelby Center, a science building. University police secured the building and students were cleared from it.

The Huntsville campus has about 7,500 students in northern Alabama, not far from the Tennessee line.
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All the more reason to let people with concealed carry permits to carry on campus.
 
Goshin said:
I refer again to the fact, which I posted with sources, that CCW holders are far more law abiding than the general citizenry and that that tiny portion which commit gun crimes is far lower than that of the general citizenry. Statistically you are far safer in the company of 10 CCW permit holders than you are in the company of ten random strangers.


.
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That is true because to get a CCW you can't be convicted of a crime. However I do know a couple of CCW holders that are paranoid bordering on psychotic. If conceal carry was permitted on campus it could become a fad and less desirables would start packing.
 
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USA-1 said:
That is true because to get a CCW you can't be convicted of a crime. However I do know a couple of CCW holders that are paranoid bordering on psychotic.
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I don't.

One anecdotal point to counter another anecdote.

BTW I train civilians in defensive handgunning and other related skills, so I've spent time with literally hundreds of CCW people. Most of them were sensible people who took their responsibility seriously.

I'm also an ex-cop, and I've probably seen more unsafe gunhandling by cops than by CCW's.

Currently I can't find any info about a CCW shooting the wrong person... how hard do you have to look to find stories about cops shooting the wrong person?

My point stands. There is no supportable reason to believe allowing CCW on campus for adults with permit would result in any negative effects, and some chance that it would cut short an attempt at mass-murder.
 
Goshin said:
I don't.

One anecdotal point to counter another anecdote.

BTW I train civilians in defensive handgunning and other related skills, so I've spent time with literally hundreds of CCW people. Most of them were sensible people who took their responsibility seriously.

I'm also an ex-cop, and I've probably seen more unsafe gunhandling by cops than by CCW's.

Currently I can't find any info about a CCW shooting the wrong person... how hard do you have to look to find stories about cops shooting the wrong person?

My point stands. There is no supportable reason to believe allowing CCW on campus for adults with permit would result in any negative effects, and some chance that it would cut short an attempt at mass-murder.
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According to the new Violence Policy Center on-line resource CCW Killers, during the period May 2007 through October 2009 concealed handgun permit holders killed eight law enforcement officers and 77 private citizens (including 10 shooters who killed themselves after an attack).


http://www.vpc.org/fact_sht/ccwmassshootings.pdf
 
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USA-1 said:
If conceal carry was permitted on campus it could become a fad and less desirables would start packing.
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Really? Just like it has in the 40 states that allow CCW...um, I mean just like it HASN'T in those 40 states.

There are a number of reasons why this "fad" notion, as a major negative, is highly improbable.

1. You have to be at least 21. This excludes probably 70% of students.

2. Clean background... this tends to exclude the most likely troublemakers.

3. You have to pay money for a class and pass it, and in most states demonstrate the ability to shoot accurately. This takes a certain level of seriousness of purpose, since we're talking about shelling out money and spending a day doing it. If you have no intrest in it beyond "faddishness" this will discourage many.

4. You have to pay more money for the permit, and it has to be renewed every four years.

5. You have to keep the gun concealed. What good is a fad you have to HIDE?

6. There is no evidence that problems related to "Fad CCW" have cropped up in any of the 40 states where shall-issue CCW exists. There is therefore no basis for this objection.
 
Goshin said:
Really? Just like it has in the 40 states that allow CCW...um, I mean just like it HASN'T in those 40 states.

There are a number of reasons why this "fad" notion, as a major negative, is highly improbable.

1. You have to be at least 21. This excludes probably 70% of students.

2. Clean background... this tends to exclude the most likely troublemakers.

3. You have to pay money for a class and pass it, and in most states demonstrate the ability to shoot accurately. This takes a certain level of seriousness of purpose, since we're talking about shelling out money and spending a day doing it. If you have no intrest in it beyond "faddishness" this will discourage many.

4. You have to pay more money for the permit, and it has to be renewed every four years.

5. You have to keep the gun concealed. What good is a fad you have to HIDE?

6. There is no evidence that problems related to "Fad CCW" have cropped up in any of the 40 states where shall-issue CCW exists. There is therefore no basis for this objection.
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I am talking about carrying at school. Many states have open carry laws and if all students are allowed to carry open or concealed it very well could become a fad.
 
Goshin said:
Hi Cap. :2wave:

Is that an admission that most people these days are, generally, "bad people" to a far greater degree or commonality than was the case in, say, the 1950's or 60's?

What is "a different time" really, than an assertion that people in general were different? What did a majority of people have back then, that so many today lack?

It certainly wasn't material things. There was lots of poverty in the 50's.
It certainly wasn't people not having opportunities and things to do. Back in the 50's, race and sex were more likely to limit one's opportunities than today, and as for diversions many small towns had a malt shop and a movie theater and that was it.
Hardly anybody saw a shrink in the 1950's. Most people didn't lock their doors, even though they might live a few miles from a street where the houses were shacks and the poor folks that lived there had to butcher their own chickens if they wanted meat to eat.

Not material things or cultural sophistication then.

What was it they had, then, that we lack, now... that guns were more commonplace but things like this rarely ever happened?

I have my own ideas but I'm curious what you think.
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The dissolution of familial and communal bonds.
 
Goshin said:
I think any adult, age 21 and older, who has a concealed carry permit (which means a clean background and passing a class usually), should be allowed to carry on campus.

Why not? 40 states now have "shall issue" (easy to get) concealed carry permits, and NONE of those states have expereinced the "wild west bloodbath" predicted by CCW opponents.

Concealed carry in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



There is no reason to believe that allowing responsible 21+ yo adults who have gone to the trouble of getting a CCW to carry on campus would result in trouble, than has been the case with the general population in 40 states that have shall-issue permits.

Allowing this would raise the chance of someone being able to give an armed response to such crimes in a timely fashion, by some percentage.
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I don't think it would be a good idea to have a lot of students armed because of the confusion it would cause in a life-or-death situation. Shooting a stationary target and knowing the weapon safety rules is different than taking down a dynamic and armed target in an urban environment with thousands of civilians around. The latter requires an understanding of battlefield dynamics that does not come with a CCW permit. In my opinion, anyone who wants to carry a firearm on campus should go through an advanced shooting course; that way we don't have multiple heroes running around the campus mistakenly shooting one another or other students.
 
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