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3 Dead in Shooting at University of Alabama Campus

Crosscheck said:
Maybe it is my bias but have you ever been to a gun show and seen some of the characters? I don't know if I feel safe if they have a gun hidden on them or not. Of course I am up here by North Idaho and there is fringe group of militants with an IQ of a butter dish.
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Ditto! I was at my first one and last one a few years ago. I never saw so many kooks in my life, complete in combat paint and combat fatigues. Someone stole a gun off the counter while I was there. I wish half of those military wannabes would at least serve their country, but if they are anything like one of them I worked with, he was afraid to shoot to shoot at anything that shoots back. So he never signed up but plays pretend.
 
EnigmaO01 said:
But there have been quite a few suicides in Iraq by military members.
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I don't worry about a suicide. Japan has far more suicides than we do and they ban guns. I prefer someone to shoot themselves rather than say driving the wrong way on a highway or jumping out of a building under which I might be walking
 
EnigmaO01 said:
Ditto! I was at my first one and last one a few years ago. I never saw so many kooks in my life, complete in combat paint and combat fatigues. Someone stole a gun off the counter while I was there. I wish half of those military wannabes would at least serve their country, but if they are anything like one of them I worked with, he was afraid to shoot to shoot at anything that shoots back. So he never signed up but plays pretend.
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I used to work gunshows. Most regular ones are full of cops, ATF agents, DEA guys etc. often on their own time. Half the people there were vets.

sure there are a few losers there-ever been to a chess tournament? or a meeting of the Brady conspiracy to ban handguns?
 
TurtleDude said:
I used to work gunshows. Most regular ones are full of cops, ATF agents, DEA guys etc. often on their own time. Half the people there were vets.
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Now how would you know that? The gun shows I have been to, the folks didn't give out their occupations.
 
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TurtleDude said:
I used to work gunshows. Most regular ones are full of cops, ATF agents, DEA guys etc. often on their own time. Half the people there were vets.

sure there are a few losers there-ever been to a chess tournament? or a meeting of the Brady conspiracy to ban handguns?
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You have an excellent point. In any sufficiently large group there are always a few losers or wingnuts. They also tend to draw your attention and stick in your memory.

No one ever says "I went to a gun show, and I remember seeing this nicely dressed middle-aged man with a pleasant voice selling antique rifles..." No, it is typically the few extremes we remember and comment on.

Pointing to the certain-percentage of wingnuts in any group and tarring the whole with them is poor debate.
 
USA-1 said:
Now how would you know that? The gun shows I have been to, the folks didn't give out there occupations.
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Maybe if you bothered to actually talk to some of them...
 
Goshin said:
Maybe if you bothered to actually talk to some of them...
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I did talk to a lot of them, but I didn't ask what they did for a living.
 
People flip sometimes.Even "responsible gun owners".I just dont trust anyone enough to say they would never shoot anyone.
 
USA-1 said:
All but 6 states allow open carry. You don't see it because most places like schools have bans on guns.
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Wrong again.

Today in the United States, the laws vary from state to state regarding open carry of handguns.

The categories are defined as follows:

Permissive Open Carry States - A state has passed full preemption of all firearms laws. They permit open carry to all non-prohibited citizens without permit or license. Also open carry is lawful on foot and in a motor vehicle.

Licensed Open Carry States - A state has passed full preemption of all firearms laws. They also permit open carry to all non-prohibited citizens once they have been issued a permit or license. Also open carry is lawful on foot and in a motor vehicle.

Anomalous Open Carry States - In these states, open carry is generally lawful, but the state may lack preemption or there may be other significant restrictions.

Non-Permissive Open Carry States - In these states, open carry is not lawful, or is only lawful under a limited set of circumstances, such as when hunting, or while traveling to/from hunting locations, while on property controlled by the person carrying, or for lawful self-defense.

Seven states and the District of Columbia fully prohibit the open carry of firearms. Additionally, there are eleven states which permit open carry without requiring the citizen to apply for any permit or license.

As of August, 2009, four states that currently restrict open carry as a remnant of the post-Civil war Reconstruction era[9] (Texas, South Carolina, Oklahoma and Arkansas) are considering making it again legal.[10][11]

The right for legal United States citizens to keep and bear arms is protected in the United States Constitution under the Second Amendment.[12]
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[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_carry]Open carry - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

The sort of situation that you're talking about would only apply to permissive open carry states, of which there are apparently only eleven.

At any rate, the whole point is ridiculous and has virtually nothing to do with the issue of allowing adult 21+ CCW'ers to carry on campus.
 
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mikhail said:
People flip sometimes.Even "responsible gun owners".I just dont trust anyone enough to say they would never shoot anyone.
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Happy for you, but statistics do not bear out this concern. The portion of persons who own guns lawfully, and commit murders, is a tiny fraction of a percent. The percentage of people who commit vehicular homicide is much higher... maybe we should ban cars instead. :mrgreen:
 
USA-1 said:
Now how would you know that? The gun shows I have been to, the folks didn't give out their occupations.
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when you are working with a well known dealer and are a well known competitive shooter who also had instructed hundreds of shooters you tend to be well known and people talk to you. I also am an attorney who was involved in that area of law so I know lots of the agents etc
 
TurtleDude said:
I used to work gunshows. Most regular ones are full of cops, ATF agents, DEA guys etc. often on their own time. Half the people there were vets.

sure there are a few losers there-ever been to a chess tournament? or a meeting of the Brady conspiracy to ban handguns?
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Ok,, you were pushing just a tad there with chess tournaments. I can't let that slide by.
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But I understand your point too as there are responsible gun owners. Many in my family are gun owners and all have been very serious about respecting that firearm. But you also know, maybe depending on what region you are in, you are going to get that fringe element. Up here they seem to come by the busload. The gunshows often attempt to put on respectable shows but the fringe elements tend to dampen it.

It is like the tv ads for those cash checking/ payday loan stores with people in ties and neatly groomed lined up as customers. Then you drive by one of those stores and see the real customers.
Sometimes you got to laugh outloud in this world to save your sanity.
 
mikhail said:
People flip sometimes.Even "responsible gun owners".I just dont trust anyone enough to say they would never shoot anyone.
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Neither do we, which is why we arm ourselves.
 
TurtleDude said:
we have had several mass shootings at universities where an active killer was able to kill many unchallenged.

That alone cuts against your position
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Not in the least. You fail to recognize the potential for far more shootings with the presence of more guns in the hands of impulsive teens and barely older than teens who's brains haven't developed enough to control this impulsivity.

the leading expert on how to deal with active shooters is John Benner of Tactical Defense Institute of West Union Ohio. He disagrees with your premise. I tend to trust someone who is a professional in this field going back to being an MP in Nam to being captain of the county swat team for two decades.
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And I'll take research about brain functioning over your expert any day.
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
Not in the least. You fail to recognize the potential for far more shootings with the presence of more guns in the hands of impulsive teens and barely older than teens who's brains haven't developed enough to control this impulsivity.



And I'll take research about brain functioning over your expert any day.
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More BS--when states started passing CCW license laws the brady thugs and others claimed there would be blood in the streets. It didn't happen. When Bush and the GOP congress let the idiotic clinton gun ban expire, the brady scum said there would be blood in the street. Didn't happen. 21 year olds get CCW licenses and don't shoot people in malls, crowded traffic lanes, sports events, etc. I guess you haven't figured out it is illegal under federal law for TEENS to buy handguns or handgun ammo and you cannot get a carry license in every state I am aware of until you can buy a handgun legally which is 21

that is why I have a hard time taking you seriously when you make huge errors like that
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
People at that age have a far less capacity to control their impulses and have a far greater potential to act out on their emotions before thinking. This is a biological situation based on the limbic system and brain structure development. It usually resolves itself by the age of 23 or so, but in a highly stressful environment such as school, both academically and socially, potential problems are far greater. I am completely against guns being allowed on any school campus because of the biological/brain structure issue.
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So explain this teacher
 
TurtleDude said:
More BS--when states started passing CCW license laws the brady thugs and others claimed there would be blood in the streets. It didn't happen. When Bush and the GOP congress let the idiotic clinton gun ban expire, the brady scum said there would be blood in the street. Didn't happen. 21 year olds get CCW licenses and don't shoot people in malls, crowded traffic lanes, sports events, etc. I guess you haven't figured out it is illegal under federal law for TEENS to buy handguns or handgun ammo and you cannot get a carry license in every state I am aware of until you can buy a handgun legally which is 21

that is why I have a hard time taking you seriously when you make huge errors like that
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And I have a hard time taking you seriously when you have no understanding of adolescent psychology or brain development and how it affects these behaviors in these situations. You don't seem to be able to understand this impact on the culture and society of a school campus. All your CCW or pro-gun BS doesn't dent any of that. When you get some understanding of the things I mentioned, let me know.

And for the record, I am not anti-gun, but understanding the psychology and development of the human brain in this age group in the sociological atmosphere of what we are discussing, I reject allowing guns in this one area... on a school campus.
 
ptif219 said:
So explain this teacher
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This teacher has zero to do with what I was discussing. She was obviously mentally unbalanced and her behavior should have no impact on whether or not someone of her age should be allowed to carry a gun. Hers was an isolated incident that cannot be traced to biology or psychology of the human species. No one in a similar position to her should be restricted from carrying a gun because of her actions.
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
And I have a hard time taking you seriously when you have no understanding of adolescent psychology or brain development and how it affects these behaviors in these situations. You don't seem to be able to understand this impact on the culture and society of a school campus. All your CCW or pro-gun BS doesn't dent any of that. When you get some understanding of the things I mentioned, let me know.

And for the record, I am not anti-gun, but understanding the psychology and development of the human brain in this age group in the sociological atmosphere of what we are discussing, I reject allowing guns in this one area... on a school campus.
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LOL I am laughing at the crap you spew. YOu are making stuff up and you have made major errors. Teenagers being able to get CCW licenses pretty much branded you as uncredible in this discussion. And Having been involved in DOZENS of major felony cases I have never heard someone successfully float the BS you spew as mitigation for a 21 year old being excused for murder robbery, felonious assault or drug dealing.

If your nonsense had a basis in fact we would see 21 year old CCW holders having higher rates of malfeasance than thirty year olds. Guess what-NO EVIDENCE EXISTS TO SUPPORT THAT Supposition.

BTW are you a PhD in psychology or are you just parroting studies you read someplace?
 
TurtleDude said:
More BS--when states started passing CCW license laws the brady thugs and others claimed there would be blood in the streets. It didn't happen. When Bush and the GOP congress let the idiotic clinton gun ban expire, the brady scum said there would be blood in the street. Didn't happen. 21 year olds get CCW licenses and don't shoot people in malls, crowded traffic lanes, sports events, etc. I guess you haven't figured out it is illegal under federal law for TEENS to buy handguns or handgun ammo and you cannot get a carry license in every state I am aware of until you can buy a handgun legally which is 21

that is why I have a hard time taking you seriously when you make huge errors like that
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http://www.vpc.org/fact_sht/ccwmassshootings.pdf
 
You have to be 21 to have a CCW, therefore any discussion of CCW holders carrying firearms on any campus automatically precludes teens from the discussion.
 
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CaptainCourtesy said:
From my observation, in today's world we have less of a sense of morality, less of a sense of altruism, more of a sense of entitlement and impulsivity, and more of a sense of selfishness. Combine these things together and you see a lot more senseless acting out.
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I'm not sure if that's true. People tend to look at the past with rose colored glasses, often remembering it as a time much more idyllic than it was. Furthermore, in America we seem to fall in this trap of remembering "the past" as the 50's postwar "Leave it to Beaver" experience while ignoring some pretty brutal times in our history, like the 20's and 30's. In honor of the day, I would like to bring up the Valentine's Day massacre as an example.
 
Apparently all the gun control laws failed.

Therefore it's time for a change away from the tired old policies of the past, and towards a more effective way of dealing with our problems as a community.
 
Jerry said:
Apparently all the gun control laws failed.

Therefore it's time for a change away from the tired old policies of the past, and towards a more effective way of dealing with our problems as a community.
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Do you have a suggestion?
 
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