U.S. soldier 'waterboarded his own daughter, 4, because she couldn't recite alphabet'

Re: U.S. soldier 'waterboarded his own daughter, 4, because she couldn't recite alpha

liblady said:

i didn't see the over the top behavior you've described. i saw some opinions which were most certainly elicited by the verbiage in the article.

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Really? You didn't? Because you responded to one that had just that

....I think we have to recognize that these are the costs that we as a society pay when we overtax our military and send men/women into mission after mission

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Here's a poster direclty stating that THESE, IE this very action, is the COST of overtaxed military. This is a poster completely and wholey making baseless accusations against the military and about this situation claiming that this "Cost" was due to this man being in an overtaxed military.

where they are taught these types of things and are told by many that it is not torture and that it is an appropriate use of punishment.

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And here, in the same post that you quoted, is the person making an accusation that the man was taught "these type of things" (Really? He was taught a common tactic is to submerge peoples heads in water repeatedly as a "punishment"?). He even goes on to suggest that its TAUGHT in our military that submerging peoples heads, or even if he misread it like I did that waterboarding, is "appropriate use of punishment" in our military. Not a method of information extraction but punishment. I mean, apparently by this posters accusations, our military is regularly taught that if someone does something bad waterboarding is approrpiate punishment. Baseless, worthless accusations with NOTHING to back it up.

Lets continue.

I'm afraid that like Vietnam...we will be paying the costs of GWB's wars in many many many ways like this.

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Again, the person AGAIN makes the claim that the war itself is the cause of this.

This is only one post and its one YOU actually quoted. If you didn't see any over the top behavior its because you have your eyes closed or you're to blinded by your partisanship and your own hatred for the act to view the situation with any ounce of intellectual honesty.

and the soldier clearly has mental issues, caused by deployment or not.

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Yes, I agree, he likely does have mental issues. Unlike others though I'm not going to IMMEDIETELY claim its because he was taught waterboarding is normal punishment by our military and that those mental issues are there becuase we "overtaxed" him. But apparently that's not an "over the top" accusation....

Re: U.S. soldier 'waterboarded his own daughter, 4, because she couldn't recite alpha

Problem #1

Re: U.S. soldier 'waterboarded his own daughter, 4, because she couldn't recite alpha

Zyphlin said:

Really? You didn't? Because you responded to one that had just that



Here's a poster direclty stating that THESE, IE this very action, is the COST of overtaxed military. This is a poster completely and wholey making baseless accusations against the military and about this situation claiming that this "Cost" was due to this man being in an overtaxed military.



And here, in the same post that you quoted, is the person making an accusation that the man was taught "these type of things" (Really? He was taught a common tactic is to submerge peoples heads in water repeatedly as a "punishment"?). He even goes on to suggest that its TAUGHT in our military that submerging peoples heads, or even if he misread it like I did that waterboarding, is "appropriate use of punishment" in our military. Not a method of information extraction but punishment. I mean, apparently by this posters accusations, our military is regularly taught that if someone does something bad waterboarding is approrpiate punishment. Baseless, worthless accusations with NOTHING to back it up.

Lets continue.



Again, the person AGAIN makes the claim that the war itself is the cause of this.

This is only one post and its one YOU actually quoted. If you didn't see any over the top behavior its because you have your eyes closed or you're to blinded by your partisanship and your own hatred for the act to view the situation with any ounce of intellectual honesty.



Yes, I agree, he likely does have mental issues. Unlike others though I'm not going to IMMEDIETELY claim its because he was taught waterboarding is normal punishment by our military and that those mental issues are there becuase we "overtaxed" him. But apparently that's not an "over the top" accusation....

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i don't see where anyone went over the top. we will be paying the costs of war, as i also asserted.

i also never claimed this happened because the guy was in a war, although it is certainly possible.

Re: U.S. soldier 'waterboarded his own daughter, 4, because she couldn't recite alpha

liblady said:

i don't see where anyone went over the top. we will be paying the costs of war, as i also asserted.

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But the person in the very same breath said THIS action by this man was us "paying the cost"

Without ANY evidence of that, at all.

That's not over the top?

i also never claimed this happened because the guy was in a war, although it is certainly possible.

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You never claimed it, but people in this thread HAVE claimed it. Yet you say you've seen "no over the top" statements.

Re: U.S. soldier 'waterboarded his own daughter, 4, because she couldn't recite alpha

Zyphlin said:

But the person in the very same breath said THIS action by this man was us "paying the cost"

Without ANY evidence of that, at all.

That's not over the top?



You never claimed it, but people in this thread HAVE claimed it. Yet you say you've seen "no over the top" statements.

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you're right, he has no evidence. he's assuming something. but i still don't believe this over the top hyper partisan stuff, because what he puts forward could easily be true.

Re: U.S. soldier 'waterboarded his own daughter, 4, because she couldn't recite alpha

Hatuey said:

It is not illegal to waterboard people.

Waterboarding is still an option - Los Angeles Times



So what exactly is your point? That it was done to some kid? Reap what you sow I guess.



So then waterboarding is illegal? Either it is legal to engage in it or it is not.

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It is illegal to force a 4 year old to drink booze until she throws up, but liquor is itself legal. Whether or not waterboarding is legal, using it on a kid definitely is. I maintain that waterboarding, in any form, is illegal. Hell, we put away Japanese generals who engaged in waterboarding our soldiers, after the end of WWII. But, just for the sake of argument, even if waterboarding was legal, it would still be a crime to subject a child to it.

As for the inference that the man waterboarded his child because he learned it in the military, that is complete BS. Rather than argue whether or not he learned waterboarding in the military, let's assume he did. In that case, we can draw from another analogy. Soldiers learn to fire their weapons in the military, but if a soldier should go off the reservation and begin shooting people, once he is back in civilian life, he has committed a crime, and should pay for that crime. By the same token, civilians who shoot up the neighborhood likewise pay for their crimes. Since both soldiers and civilians occasionally shoot up neighborhoods, then learning it in the military is not the common denominator, is it? Seems that the common denominator is that both civilian and soldier have a criminal mind, and a flaw in their personality to begin with. So what can we deduce from this argument? That the man who waterboarded his child was a dirt bag already, and the military training had absolutely nothing to do with it.

If you still want to argue that I am wrong at this point, then we can blame anything on everything. I hear that John Wayne Gacy was once in the Boy Scouts, so that must mean what he learned in the Boy Scouts is responsible for his mass killing of little boys. Or how about this one? A guy goes to the death house for robbing a store and shooting to death the owner of the store. No, it's not his fault at all. It's all the fault of guns. But where did he learn to shoot his gun? The NRA, you say? Damn, it's all the NRA's fault.

Here is what I think we should do - Give this dirt bag some psychiatric treatment, because something is seriously wrong with him..... In addition, give him some years in prison to reflect upon what he did. But put the blame where it lies, not on the military, not on deficiencies in his upbringing, if there were any, not on his not getting a pacifier as a baby, if that was the problem, but on HIM. HE committed the act. The blame is HIS and nobody else's.

Re: U.S. soldier 'waterboarded his own daughter, 4, because she couldn't recite alpha

liblady said:

you're right, he has no evidence. he's assuming something. but i still don't believe this over the top hyper partisan stuff, because what he puts forward could easily be true.

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I heard this guy was male. Obviously THIS is what we get for having males in society where they are so overtaxed by the burdens of their maleness. We will be paying for having males around for years to come with things like this.

Wait...he had a daughter, that would mean....

I heard this guy had sex with a women. Obvious THIS is what happen when we have females in our society causing mens labidos to be so overtaxed. We will be paying for the femine wiles of women for years to come with things like this.

Wait...he's human, so he drinks water. That would mena...

I heard this guy actually drinks H2O. Obviously THIS is what happens when we have humans overtaxing their bodies with excess H20. We will be paying for the horrors of our dihydrogen monoxide dependency for years to come with things like this.

Hey, I don't have any evidence and I'm just making assumptions, but of course its not outrageous of me to claim as fact that those are the causes, I mean its at least possible because hey, he did those things, so naturally they COULD be a cause.

:roll:

Re: U.S. soldier 'waterboarded his own daughter, 4, because she couldn't recite alpha

danarhea said:

Whether or not waterboarding is legal, using it on a kid definitely is.

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I realize that this was a mistake, but I did a serious double take when I read it.

Re: U.S. soldier 'waterboarded his own daughter, 4, because she couldn't recite alpha

Zyphlin said:

I heard this guy was male. Obviously THIS is what we get for having males in society where they are so overtaxed by the burdens of their maleness. We will be paying for having males around for years to come with things like this.

Wait...he had a daughter, that would mean....

I heard this guy had sex with a women. Obvious THIS is what happen when we have females in our society causing mens labidos to be so overtaxed. We will be paying for the femine wiles of women for years to come with things like this.

Wait...he's human, so he drinks water. That would mena...

I heard this guy actually drinks H2O. Obviously THIS is what happens when we have humans overtaxing their bodies with excess H20. We will be paying for the horrors of our dihydrogen monoxide dependency for years to come with things like this.

Hey, I don't have any evidence and I'm just making assumptions, but of course its not outrageous of me to claim as fact that those are the causes, I mean its at least possible because hey, he did those things, so naturally they COULD be a cause.

:roll:

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except there are no stats to support water causing a person to torture their daughter, nor are there stats to support anything you mentioned. there are, however, statistics to support PTSD, which could certainly be a cause of the behavior.

Re: U.S. soldier 'waterboarded his own daughter, 4, because she couldn't recite alpha

A significant percentage of the male pouplation drinks, and its shown that a percentage of people that drink can be violent. Why didn't Disney rail against that a possability?

A part of the population, in general, has rage and anger issues. That could've caused it. Why didn't Disney rail against that possability?

A part of the population, in general, has mental issues. That could've caused it. Why didn't Disney rail against that possability?

A part of the population was abused as children leadin to being poor parents themselves. That could've causd it. Why didn't Disney rail against that possability.

And through all those, why didn't Disney state with certainty and definitiveness that those are the reasons?

Why? Because that didn't suit his political agenda and his hyper partisan desire to get on a soap box and use this situation for all its worth to push his bone to pick. But of course, its one you agree with, so naturally you don't see anything "over the top" about it, because apparently to you its completely reasonable and understandable to not assume, but to state as if its fact, that the military, GWB, and our stance on waterboarding caused this man to push his daughters face into a bowl of water.

Re: U.S. soldier 'waterboarded his own daughter, 4, because she couldn't recite alpha

Zyphlin said:

A significant percentage of the male pouplation drinks, and its shown that a percentage of people that drink can be violent. Why didn't Disney rail against that a possability?

A part of the population, in general, has rage and anger issues. That could've caused it. Why didn't Disney rail against that possability?

A part of the population, in general, has mental issues. That could've caused it. Why didn't Disney rail against that possability?

A part of the population was abused as children leadin to being poor parents themselves. That could've causd it. Why didn't Disney rail against that possability.

And through all those, why didn't Disney state with certainty and definitiveness that those are the reasons?

Why? Because that didn't suit his political agenda and his hyper partisan desire to get on a soap box and use this situation for all its worth to push his bone to pick. But of course, its one you agree with, so naturally you don't see anything "over the top" about it, because apparently to you its completely reasonable and understandable to not assume, but to state as if its fact, that the military, GWB, and our stance on waterboarding caused this man to push his daughters face into a bowl of water.

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you saw my post, and i have no agenda.

what we know: the man is an iraq veteran
the man is disturbed enough to torture his daughter

what we DON'T know: details of his childhood
his drinking habits


maybe that's why disney didn't rant agoinst those things.

Re: U.S. soldier 'waterboarded his own daughter, 4, because she couldn't recite alpha

liblady said:

you saw my post, and i have no agenda.

what we know: the man is an iraq veteran
the man is disturbed enough to torture his daughter

what we DON'T know: details of his childhood
his drinking habits


maybe that's why disney didn't rant agoinst those things.

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And yet the VAST majority of Iraqi Veterans don't torture thier children. Yet you still seem its not "over the top" not to suggest, not to imply, but to directly say as if fact that the MILITARY, GWB's War, and our stance on waterboarding CAUSED this to happen.

Sorry. There's nothing more to discuss here. The fact you don't see that notion as over the top speaks volumes about your partisanship and its obviously through this discussion you're not going to relent on your assertion so there's no where else to take this really.

Re: U.S. soldier 'waterboarded his own daughter, 4, because she couldn't recite alpha

Zyphlin said:

And yet the VAST majority of Iraqi Veterans don't torture thier children. Yet you still seem its not "over the top" not to suggest, not to imply, but to directly say as if fact that the MILITARY, GWB's War, and our stance on waterboarding CAUSED this to happen.

Sorry. There's nothing more to discuss here. The fact you don't see that notion as over the top speaks volumes about your partisanship and its obviously through this discussion you're not going to relent on your assertion so there's no where else to take this really.

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i guess i've become desensitized because of all the over the top hyper partisanship on this site. seems quite normal, really.

Re: U.S. soldier 'waterboarded his own daughter, 4, because she couldn't recite alpha

Alvin T. Grey said:

When strapped to a board, very little.

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You cannot see the difference between harming a little girl and harming a terrorist? That's very disturbing.

Re: U.S. soldier 'waterboarded his own daughter, 4, because she couldn't recite alpha

Reverend_Hellh0und said:

This is not "waterboarding".

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Yeah, but it wouldn't be much of a story if he hadn't invoked the W word.

Re: U.S. soldier 'waterboarded his own daughter, 4, because she couldn't recite alpha

EnigmaO01 said:

Goes to show you just because you put on a uniform it doesn't automatically make you a "hero" contrary to what you hear. I've always contended calling everyone in the military a heroes cheapens the real meaning of the word that applies to the real military heroes. I've know a few troops I wouldn't trust my dog to. But I still respect 99.999 of the troops as I was one myself once and I commend their sacrifices.

That said, I'm not making excuses for the man, but have to wonder if he was deployed, and if so did it have any effect on him.

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Not too many people said that putting on a uniform automatically makes one a hero. The point is that the fact that this disturbed person is in the military is a mear coincidence and not a factor is this particular horrible behavior of his. What I have been P'O'd about is the media and misguided people trying to link waterboarding to this sad incident. This is not about waterboarding this is about a bad disturbed individual doing something very eveil to his child.

Re: U.S. soldier 'waterboarded his own daughter, 4, because she couldn't recite alpha

EnigmaO01 said:

Never did.

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I will re-read your posts but from the first pass through it sure sounded as if you did.

Re: U.S. soldier 'waterboarded his own daughter, 4, because she couldn't recite alpha

Jerry said:

Yes, yes I am.

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If you want to use generic PTSD as a trigger and I emphsize trigger for his behavior I can understand that. What I do not agree with is blaming this on the "father" being a military man or a Veteran. PTSD is not unique to military service since there are many traumatic events out side of military service that can be attributed to PTSD.

PTSD whether as a result of military servcie or events not connected with military service are a trigger for behavior and not the cause. A person who has a character flaw or some form of emotional or mental instability may do things that are triggered by PTSD but they must have had that flaw or character trait already. Also if they happen to be be military or former military all that means is that they brought those traits or character flaws into the millitary with they. The military is not a casue of their bad traits or character flaws.

Re: U.S. soldier 'waterboarded his own daughter, 4, because she couldn't recite alpha

Ethereal said:

You cannot see the difference between harming a little girl and harming a terrorist? That's very disturbing.

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When strapped to a board neither pose much of a threat. I see no difference in torturing either. Neither do I see much point. Unless your aim is not to gather intelligence but to punish or avenge.

And that is the very deffinition of a barbarian at best and of a ****ing coward at worst.

Re: U.S. soldier 'waterboarded his own daughter, 4, because she couldn't recite alpha

Ethereal said:

Suppose it is...what difference does it make? Are you saying that torture is categorically immoral? What about killing or maiming?

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No. I am saying that justifying torture with legal arguments has directly lead to this. Murdering somebody isn't legal. Killing somebody in a battlefield has been declared not only allowable but - gasp - legal. Waterboarding somebody against their will is as established by the last administration legal. It is not even torture remember? What difference does it make who it is applied on if it is not torture and legal? Why the double standards?