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Pope Benedict attacks government over Equality Bill

Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

Ikari said:
Do not care. The rights are absolute, not the money.

They are free to practice and express as they want. They are private and can hire whom they want. If they want to only associate and assemble with those of like mind and those whom are in compliance with their religious laws that is their business. If they don't want gay people in their church, they are free to keep them out.
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I have no problem with any of this; just as long as they aren't receiving tax subsidies.
 
Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

CrusaderRabbit08 said:
I have no problem with any of this; just as long as they aren't receiving tax subsidies.
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Then you do have a problem with the first part. Where I stated the rights are absolute, not the money. To you, it's the opposite. The money is absolute, not the rights.
 
Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

Ikari said:
Then you do have a problem with the first part. Where I stated the rights are absolute, not the money. To you, it's the opposite. The money is absolute, not the rights.
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If they're going to discriminate, they can't force me to sanction it with my tax dollars.
 
Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

Jerry said:
Having read the article, I couldn't see what this is all about? What is the law and what is that law doing?
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Nothing much, a version of the law is already on the books all Harman is going to do is merely clarify what is and is not a religious job. The law has no intention of forcing churches to suddenly change their core doctrine or interfere with those at all.
All she is doing is ensuring that those secular jobs such as cleaners, accountants, managers are not subject to unfair discrimination because of their sexuality etc.

This law is by no means a violation of religious liberty because it does not penalise religion at all
 
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Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

Laila said:
Nothing much, a version of the law is already on the books all Harman is going to do is merely clarify what is and is not a religious job. The law has no intention of forcing churches to suddenly change their core doctrine or interfere with those at all.
All she is doing is ensuring that those secular jobs such as cleaners, accountants, managers are not subject to unfair discrimination because of their sexuality etc.

This law is by no means a violation of religious liberty because it does not penalise religion at all
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So this is about jobs in the church? I didn't get that from the article at all, but oh well.

What law?


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Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

CrusaderRabbit08 said:
If they're going to discriminate, they can't force me to sanction it with my tax dollars.
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Your beef is with the government, not the free institution. As I said, the rights of the individual are absolute, not the money. In fact, acknowledging the rights and liberties of the individual and holding them above all else despite consequence and responsibility is a corner stone of libertarian political philosophy.
 
Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

Laila said:
I thought US had affirmative action ... :/
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Yes, but that's not really what I had in mind. Actually, affirmative action is a form of reverse discrimination which I don't necessarily think is useful anymore in this day and age.

What I meant was that I was under the impression that discrimination based on gender, race and religion was illegal in the US.
 
Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

Jerry said:
So this is about jobs in the church? I didn't get that from the article at all, but oh well.

What law?


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No, I am clarifying the law does not affect the core jobs in any religious institution in the UK therefore it is not an attack on any form of 'religious liberty'

And the law is the UK Equality bill.
Redress said:
http://www.equalities.gov.uk/pdf/Equality%20Bill%20and%20Religion%20for%20press%20and%20website%20%283%29.pdf
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Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

Jerry said:
So this is about jobs in the church? I didn't get that from the article at all, but oh well.

What law?


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It's about jobs everywhere, including religious institutions. This only applies to secular jobs (accountants, managers, clerks, cleaners...) and will not apply to priests, imams, rabbis etc...

It basically forbids all manner of discrimination by employers, including sexual orientation.
 
Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

If any Government wants to interfere with any Religion they should ban Cults like Islam and the Mormons who's precepts teach either hate or the subjugation of others.

Banning Homosexuals seems natural since it's a life style choice that is against the Churches teachings.

And don't give any crap about how you were born Homosexual it's been proven time and again that was a lie. It's a choice used by people who can't deal with relationships, between men and women, so they take the easy way.

There is no such thing as a Homosexual Gene! The Gay Gene?

Government should stay out of Religion period.
 
Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

liblady said:
once we allow ANY religious doctrine to dictate what a gov't does, that's establishment of a gov't religion.

the church should be able to hire whomever they please.
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Well, my understanding is that if the government officially adopts a church then it is establishment. However, if they started a Catholic Party in Mass. and they got some folks elected into office on the platform that they will pass laws in accordance with Catholic Law, I think that is perfectly fine. If the electorate elects them.

We agree it is up to the church to decide who to hire.
 
Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

I see no wrong in opposing a socialistic icon such as the British equality bill.
 
Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

reefedjib said:
However, if they started a Catholic Party in Mass. and they got some folks elected into office on the platform that they will pass laws in accordance with Catholic Law, I think that is perfectly fine.
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So long as the laws do not violate the rights and liberties of the individual, even in the individual is part of the minority.
 
Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

Laila said:
No, I am clarifying the law does not affect the core jobs in any religious institution in the UK therefore it is not an attack on any form of 'religious liberty'

And the law is the UK Equality bill.
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Exactly and it has been around in some form for donkey ages in many countries.

What the pope is afraid of here, is that the church can be forced to accept women priests and gay priests because of this law and similar. Not gonna happen, but what society must uphold is the law when it comes to non religious jobs with in the church.

We dont allow employers to discriminate over colour of the skin or sexual orientation, or religion for that matter, and the Church expects us to "bend" or "break" this principle just because it is a religious organisation? Not bloody likely.
 
Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

Ikari said:
Your beef is with the government, not the free institution. As I said, the rights of the individual are absolute, not the money. In fact, acknowledging the rights and liberties of the individual and holding them above all else despite consequence and responsibility is a corner stone of libertarian political philosophy.
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My gripe is with both, since both parties are guilty.
 
Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

reefedjib said:
We agree it is up to the church to decide who to hire.
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The Church can hire who ever they want. No one is stopping them from not hiring the gay guy or the woman or the muslim or Jew.

What is not acceptable in Europe is to openly state, we will only accept applications from White, Christian, non gay people for the job of washing the Church toilet and that is what the Church has done.

In Europe you are not even allowed in principle to advertise for a specific sex of the applicants, let alone religion, sexual orientation or ethnicity.

But in the end it is still up to the company (in this case the Church) that decides who to hire and if a person can prove that he was not hired for a job because he is gay, muslim or whatever, then the Church can be very much liable.

But then again if the Church or whoever admits that said person was not hired because of his religion or sexual orientation, then they are only asking for it and in this case.. well.. no brainer. :roll:
 
Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

CrusaderRabbit08 said:
My gripe is with both, since both parties are guilty.
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But it's the government who is restricted, not the individual. So it doesn't matter how much you think the individual is "guilty", the government shouldn't be offering up the money in the first place. If the government hands you a bunch of cash and you take it; I may not think you should and may criticize the subsidy, but I don't think you have to follow my rules than. It's the government which has to follow my rules, not other individuals. The rights and liberties of the individual must reign above all else.
 
Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

Arcana XV said:
Doesn't Israel have very similar laws in the books?
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The Israeli equality laws are slightly less socialistic than the British equality laws, and tend more towards the values of liberalism.

Yet you are generally correct, and that certainly doesn't mean that two wrongs make a right.
 
Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

Ikari said:
The rights and liberties of the individual must reign above all else.
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Agreed ..and my rights are being violated when my tax dollars are being used to subsidize organizations that discriminate.
 
Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

CrusaderRabbit08 said:
Agreed ..and my rights are being violated when my tax dollars are being used to subsidize organizations that discriminate.
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And your beef is with the government whom has spent your money in ways it wasn't authorized to do. But you cannot go after the individuals, their rights are still above all else. Just because a Church takes money doesn't mean that the practitioners must now be restricted. Get rid of the subsidy if you want, but you cannot infringe upon the right to practice and express religion nor upon assembly. That's what it means to acknowledge the rights of the individual as supreme.
 
Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

PeteEU said:
What is not acceptable in Europe is to openly state, we will only accept applications from White, Christian, non gay people for the job of washing the Church toilet and that is what the Church has done.
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I think that is bull****. If they are only going to hire non-gay guys, why not be able to announce that fact? Europe is too PC. Talk about a toilet.
 
Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

Ikari said:
And your beef is with the government whom has spent your money in ways it wasn't authorized to do. But you cannot go after the individuals, their rights are still above all else. Just because a Church takes money doesn't mean that the practitioners must now be restricted. Get rid of the subsidy if you want, but you cannot infringe upon the right to practice and express religion nor upon assembly. That's what it means to acknowledge the rights of the individual as supreme.
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And government can place restrictions upon the use of said money if it so chooses, since no religious group is forced to take the money. If they feel these restrictions violate their principles, they can walk away from the money.

Restrictions for accepting tax dollars on a voluntary basis are not a violation of any one's rights, since the group is free to not accept the proposal.
 
Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

reefedjib said:
I think that is bull****. If they are only going to hire non-gay guys, why not be able to announce that fact? Europe is too PC. Talk about a toilet.
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I agree, they shouldn'e be forced to hire someone who engages in what their religion considers a deviant, sinful life style.......;)
 
Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

CrusaderRabbit08 said:
And government can place restrictions upon the use of said money if it so chooses, since no religious group is forced to take the money.
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Absolutely not. The government must be forbidden from infringing upon the rights and liberties of the individual without due process of law.

You don't seem to actually understand the premise that the rights of the individual are to reign above all else; the very corner stone of libertarian political philosophy.
 
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