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Haiti detains Americans taking kids across border

PeteEU said:
LOL right. So you would have no problems with say Islamic missionaries helping children in post Katria New Orleans and whisking them off to Pakistan, Iran and Afghanistan without know if their parents were alive or with the permission of the US government? yea right.
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The United States was not crippled by Katrina. New Orleans, a single city was. What happened? People from all over the country came to help. Your comparison is a huge fail. If our entire country had been crippled by Katrina, MAYBE you'd have a point. No such thing.
 
This is the problem with the world. Sentiments for "law" trump the sentiment of saving lives during tragedy. It seems as if these people tried to do something helpful for the children of the earthquake and were not taking these children anywhere in the spirit of "child trafficking". For certain people, borders and law trump human life, and IMO that is wrong. That we would fear to save lives, to satiate some desire to uphold laws instead is the height of arrogance and destructive to any society that engages or approves of such behavior.
 
I bet if they were actually child traffickers, they would not have been caught.
 
I keep trying to put myself in the shoes of the officials who 'caught' these aid workers. With the knowledge that criminals are trying to make off with children for nefarious purposes, What would you think if you found people sneaking children out of the country? If you were suspicious enough, I don't think any of the documentation mentioned so far would convince you to go easy.

I also try to put myself in the shoes of the aid workers. If I had desperate children in my custody, I would probably try to get them to someplace safe, and damn the consequences if I got caught.

It is just a bad situation, really, as desperate chaos usually is. I am not convinced that anyone in the situation is really wrong.
 
Kandahar said:
WTF are you talking about? The United States is huge and has plenty of facilities; there would be plenty of places other than New Orleans to take them. The same is not true of Haiti...it's a small country that doesn't have good facilities ANYWHERE. Comparing bringing Haitian kids to the Dominican Republic, with whisking American kids off to Afghanistan, is ridiculous. And you know it.
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I am not comparing, I am talking about the principle by giving an example that is close to home. It is exactly the same.. kidnapping is kidnapping. If they had done it in China, North Korea, any country in Africa, it would still be kidnapping.

There is documented evidence that they were on a humanitarian mission for their church. I don't believe for one second that YOU actually think that they were sex traffickers. You showed your true colors in your previous post: You just want to stick it to them because they're Christians. Your supposed concern for the law or for Haitian children is completely phony.
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And there was clear cut message from the Haitian government days after the earthquake that ALL adoptions were halted for the time being because of the fear of child trafficking..

Then they can focus on real traffickers, instead of missionaries trying to help.
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And just because they are missionaries then they are not suppose to follow the law? give me a freaking break. And just because they are missionaries then they are beyond reproach?

To anyone who doesn't have a nasty anti-Christian vendetta, it just looks like some well-meaning people doing something foolish due to extreme circumstances.
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Listen I had no clue that they were Christian missionaries when I posted my first post. It is irrelevant. It could be Jesus himself for all I care. You can not take children without the consent of the parents, legal guardians or/and government.

And in this case there was a clear message from the Haitians that adoptions were banned for the time being and the police were on the look out for child traffickers.

So either these so called missionaries were insanely dumb or the deliberately kidnapped these kids for whatever reason, good will, child sex or illegal adoption.. does not matter... what they did was illegal.
 
Dezaad said:
I keep trying to put myself in the shoes of the officials who 'caught' these aid workers. With the knowledge that criminals are trying to make off with children for nefarious purposes, What would you think if you found people sneaking children out of the country? If you were suspicious enough, I don't think any of the documentation mentioned so far would convince you to go easy.
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Exactly, especially if you were under clear orders to not allow any adoptions.

I also try to put myself in the shoes of the aid workers. If I had desperate children in my custody, I would probably try to get them to someplace safe, and damn the consequences if I got caught.
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Agree fully.. if their motives were genuine. We live in a bad world, where people do bad things during crisis like this. We have to be on the look out for such situations.

It is just a bad situation, really, as desperate chaos usually is. I am not convinced that anyone in the situation is really wrong.
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That is incorrect. The aid workers/Missionaries are clearly in the wrong. Their motives might have been pure and so on, but that does not change they fact that they attempted to take 33 children out of a country without the consent of the government or anyone in an official position.

Now they might just off with a slap on the wrist but does not change the fact what they did.
 
PeteEU said:
Exactly, especially if you were under clear orders to not allow any adoptions.



Agree fully.. if their motives were genuine. We live in a bad world, where people do bad things during crisis like this. We have to be on the look out for such situations.



That is incorrect. The aid workers/Missionaries are clearly in the wrong. Their motives might have been pure and so on, but that does not change they fact that they attempted to take 33 children out of a country without the consent of the government or anyone in an official position.

Now they might just off with a slap on the wrist but does not change the fact what they did.
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Your bloviating is irrelevant. People are pitching in to help children. They were moving them only to another orphanage. You need to be ignored.
 
Removing Kids with out permission is the wrong way to go about things. who knows their actual intent?? Just because they are Americans, does not give them the right to remove children form their own country, with out going through the proper channels.
 
PeteEU said:
And there was clear cut message from the Haitian government days after the earthquake that ALL adoptions were halted for the time being because of the fear of child trafficking..
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They weren't being adopted. They were being temporarily moved to an orphanage in the Dominican Republic, due to overcrowding in Haiti.

PeteEU said:
And just because they are missionaries then they are not suppose to follow the law?
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Governments don't have to uphold the letter of the law regardless of circumstance. That's just retarded.

PeteEU said:
give me a freaking break. And just because they are missionaries then they are beyond reproach?
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No one has argued that. YOU are the one who keeps peppering the thread with anti-Christian garbage.

PeteEU said:
Listen I had no clue that they were Christian missionaries when I posted my first post. It is irrelevant. It could be Jesus himself for all I care. You can not take children without the consent of the parents, legal guardians or/and government.
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Dude, there was a major earthquake and these people were trying to help. The ONLY reason you are insisting that the letter of the law be followed is because they are Christian (or maybe because they are American). You certainly have offered no rational reason why it should be.

PeteEU said:
And in this case there was a clear message from the Haitians that adoptions were banned for the time being and the police were on the look out for child traffickers.
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Right...ON THE LOOK OUT for them. That's why they got stopped at the border; I understand that. Now that it's obvious that these people aren't child traffickers (despite your ridiculous claims to the contrary), it's time to let them go.

PeteEU said:
So either these so called missionaries were insanely dumb or the deliberately kidnapped these kids for whatever reason, good will, child sex or illegal adoption.. does not matter... what they did was illegal.
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You, sir, are a bona fide idiot. I'm done arguing this subject with you. :2wave:
 
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The President of Haiti was trying to leave the country right after the disaster before he was caught and reminded of his duty.
 
American said:
Your bloviating is irrelevant. People are pitching in to help children. They were moving them only to another orphanage. You need to be ignored.
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As long as they don't wind up here I guess it's OK.....;)
 
American said:
Your bloviating is irrelevant. People are pitching in to help children. They were moving them only to another orphanage. You need to be ignored.
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Hardly irrelevant.. I am in fact 1000% correct and people defending these people are incorrect.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...mily-care-centre/story-fn3dxix6-1225825305982

Most of the children taken by a US church group "have family" that survived the earthquake, head of the international care center, Patricia Vargas said .

According to Ms Vargas' conversation with older children of the group, above seven years old, some of the youngsters "say their parents are alive, and some of them gave us an address and phone numbers," she said.
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And

BBC News - Haiti arrests US nationals over child 'abductions'

"This is an abduction, not an adoption," Haitian Social Affairs Minister Yves Christallin was quoted as saying by the AFP news agency.

"What is important for us in Haiti is that a child needs to have an authorisation from this ministry to leave the country," Mr Christallin said.
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And before you use the "source" card on me

Haiti's Government Holds 10 Americans On Suspicion Of Trying To Take Children Out Of The Country | World News | Sky News

Same story.. from a News Corp owned media outlet, which btw the Australian also is.

So it is getting pretty clear now..

Some if not most of the 31 children are not even orphans. The so called missionaries did not get permission from the parents let alone the Haitian government. Hence what these people did is an abduction pure and simple and that is a criminal act regardless of the motive.
 
PeteEU said:
Hardly irrelevant.. I am in fact 1000% correct and people defending these people are incorrect.

Haiti kids taken by Americans 'have family': care centre | The Australian



And

BBC News - Haiti arrests US nationals over child 'abductions'



And before you use the "source" card on me

Haiti's Government Holds 10 Americans On Suspicion Of Trying To Take Children Out Of The Country | World News | Sky News

Same story.. from a News Corp owned media outlet, which btw the Australian also is.

So it is getting pretty clear now..

Some if not most of the 31 children are not even orphans. The so called missionaries did not get permission from the parents let alone the Haitian government. Hence what these people did is an abduction pure and simple and that is a criminal act regardless of the motive.
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And where are those parents? Where???
 
I'll bet PeteEU has a nice comfy Spanish gulag we could put them in. Yeah, those mean ole American Christians trying to sneak those kids away from their parents (who are alive and well and were just planning to come get their children) and place them in some nasty old hotel on a beach in DR.
 
Partisan said:
How is that relavent?........:confused:

If they broke the law, they should be punished....;)

If I robbed a 7-11 because my kids were hungry, would you forgive me?.....:roll:
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Breaking the law in Haiti is like having unprotected sex with your wife. No big deal...
 
Since these Church members are Central Valley Baptist Church in Meridian, Idaho and the East Side Baptist Church in Twin Falls, Idaho I am a lot concerned than I would be if they were from Utah and members of the radica Mormon Cult of child exploitation preteen rape and abandonment of young boys to eliminate competition.
These people just seem to out of touch with reality in doing this incredibly stupid stunt.
 
Councilman said:
Since these Church members are Central Valley Baptist Church in Meridian, Idaho and the East Side Baptist Church in Twin Falls, Idaho I am a lot concerned than I would be if they were from Utah and members of the radica Mormon Cult of child exploitation preteen rape and abandonment of young boys to eliminate competition.
These people just seem to out of touch with reality in doing this incredibly stupid stunt.
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OK everyone...
dontfeedthetroll.jpg
 
" ... The Americans said the youngsters had all lost their parents in the quake.
But George Willeit, a spokesman in Port-au-Prince for SOS Children's Villages, which is now looking after the children, says at least one of them, a little girl, said her parents were alive.
He told journalists the girl said she had believed she was being taken to a boarding school or summer camp.

Mr Willeit said many of the children had been found to be in poor health, hungry and dehydrated.
One of the smallest - just two or three months old - was so dehydrated she had to be taken to hospital, he added.
Haitian authorities said none of the children had documentation or proof they were actually parentless.

"This is an abduction, not an adoption," Haitian Social Affairs Minister Yves Christallin told AFP news agency.
The leader of the Idaho-based group, Laura Silsby, said the arrests were the result of a mistake. .... "

You betcha!


BBC News - US to resume shortly Haiti medical evacuation flights
 
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Kandahar said:
Governments don't have to uphold the letter of the law regardless of circumstance. That's just retarded.
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So the Haitian authorities should've just waved them across the border?

Tell me, what's to stop bad guys from saying "hey, we're religious relief workers who are transporting these orphans to an orphanage in the DR"?
 
Manc Skipper said:
" ... The Americans said the youngsters had all lost their parents in the quake.
But George Willeit, a spokesman in Port-au-Prince for SOS Children's Villages, which is now looking after the children, says at least one of them, a little girl, said her parents were alive.
He told journalists the girl said she had believed she was being taken to a boarding school or summer camp.

Mr Willeit said many of the children had been found to be in poor health, hungry and dehydrated.
One of the smallest - just two or three months old - was so dehydrated she had to be taken to hospital, he added.
Haitian authorities said none of the children had documentation or proof they were actually parentless.

"This is an abduction, not an adoption," Haitian Social Affairs Minister Yves Christallin told AFP news agency.
The leader of the Idaho-based group, Laura Silsby, said the arrests were the result of a mistake. .... "

You betcha!


BBC News - US to resume shortly Haiti medical evacuation flights
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We've all read this. They weren't taking the kids home, they were moving them to a better orphanage.
 
American said:
We've all read this. They weren't taking the kids home, they were moving them to a better orphanage.
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Irrespective of their intentions, and I, for one, am prepared to accept their good intentions on face value, they were committing an obviously illegal act. To take young children across an international border without prior authorisation, and/or appropriate documentation, is so obviously illegal even to the dumbest high school kid, that I am incredulous that the people concerned were ignorant of this fact. Particularly as they are part of an organisation. Such a situation is horribly susceptible to abuse.
 
Oh my God! They arrested another group of Baptists :shock:

Port-au-Prince, Haiti - The Haitian government is in a chaotic state, now targeting numerous Baptist Mission groups for persecution. We learned today that a group of 19 Landover Baptist Church members are being held in Port-au-Prince after trying to take 125 children out of Haiti.

The church group, most of them from Iowa, allegedly lacked the proper documents when they were arrested and handled in an uncivilized manner at 2 AM on Friday night in a bus caravan along with Haitian children aged two months to 16 years who had survived the earthquake. When police officers asked them for documents, group members held up their Bibles and said, "We're working for Jesus! And the Son of the Living God does not require any documentation!"
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CrusaderRabbit08 said:
Oh my God! They arrested another group of Baptists :shock:
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Ha, those Baptist Americans are incurable. Are they not aware that Haitians are Satan-worshipper Catholics, for crissake!
 
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