• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Obama to call for 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' repeal, adviser says

apdst said:
They're not the only people with language skills. Not necessarily Arabic, as you orginally posted.

Hate to break it to you, though, while linguists are important, they're not exactly the back bone of the military.
Click to expand...

As I said, please provide your argument that this policy is saving more people than it is killing. I at least can provide a reasoned argument for how this policy is doing more harm than good when it comes to lives. Can you provide evidence that I am wrong? Not only could this be costly in human resources, but it costs half a billion dollars to maintain it. You don't think that money could go to something more useful like say...armor?
 
CriticalThought said:
As I said, please provide your argument that this policy is saving more people than it is killing. I at least can provide a reasoned argument for how this policy is doing more harm than good when it comes to lives. Can you provide evidence that I am wrong? Not only could this be costly in human resources, but it costs half a billion dollars to maintain it. You don't think that money could go to something more useful like say...armor?
Click to expand...

So, you think that time spent dealing with sexual harassment cases rather than training for battle is a good thing? Less training means more casualties. Anyone who has spent more than a week in the service already knows that. Obviously, you're not one of those people.

How much armor could time that is wasted on sexual harassment investigations buy?
 
apdst said:
So, you think that time spent dealing with sexual harassment cases rather than training for battle is a good thing?
Click to expand...

I didn't realize that JAG was torn between training and working on sexual harassment cases. :roll:

Pretty weak.
 
CriticalThought said:
I didn't realize that JAG was torn between training and working on sexual harassment cases. :roll:

Pretty weak.
Click to expand...

No, but the leaders and commanders who do lead troops in the field will have to attend to those cases and they will definitely be torn between training and working on sexual harrassment cases.
 
apdst said:
How much armor could time that is wasted on sexual harassment investigations buy?
Click to expand...

Probably a lot less than what is spent on DADT investigations and discharges. At least sexual harassment is a genuine crime, whereas being gay is not. If we were going to waste money on something, I would much prefer it be spent on a crime than because a gay person dared to want to protect their country.

But thanks for making a good argument for me.
 
CriticalThought said:
Probably a lot less than what is spent on DADT investigations and discharges. At least sexual harassment is a genuine crime, whereas being gay is not. If we were going to waste money on something, I would much prefer it be spent on a crime than because a gay person dared to want to protect their country.
Click to expand...

In 12 years I never spent time on a DADT case. I spent quite a few hours on sexual harassment and EO cases, however.

But, hey, it ain't your ass in the grass. Right? You don't give a **** if those soldiers have the proper training, because you'r not going to be one of them.
 
apdst said:
No, but the leaders and commanders who do lead troops in the field will have to attend to those cases and they will definitely be torn between training and working on sexual harrassment cases.
Click to expand...

I highly doubt the military is so poorly organized that recruits wouldn't be getting drilled in the morning just because their drill sergeant is testifying in court.

You are still not making a very strong argument for how this policy is saving lives. To the contrary, you are emphasizing that sexual harassment cases are a greater danger to national security than dismissing vital intelligence units during war. Are you sure you want to continue down this line of reasoning knowing that there are probably servicemen and women out there facepalming as they watch you struggle to justify something so innane?
 
apdst said:
But, hey, it ain't your ass in the grass. Right? You don't give a **** if those soldiers have the proper training, because you'r not going to be one of them.
Click to expand...

Not for lack of wanting. They kinda have a policy where they will kick me out the moment they figure out I'm gay. But I guess that works to your advantage. I'm not allowed to criticize the policy that restricts gays from serving because I haven't served, but I can't serve without fearing they find out I'm gay and kick me out. Nice way for you to silence opposition to your views.
 
CriticalThought said:
I highly doubt the military is so poorly organized that recruits wouldn't be getting drilled in the morning just because their drill sergeant is testifying in court.
Click to expand...



You do understand that basic training is only two months long and that training doesn't end with graduation? You really don't have a clue how the military works, do you?

You are still not making a very strong argument for how this policy is saving lives. To the contrary, you are emphasizing that sexual harassment cases are a greater danger to national security than dismissing vital intelligence units during war. Are you sure you want to continue down this line of reasoning knowing that there are probably servicemen and women out there facepalming as they watch you struggle to justify something so innane?
Click to expand...

The one thing that your ignorance of the military is proving, is your inability to understand that everyone in the military can be replaced. Our military is no less effective because a few gay soldiers have been discharged.
 
CriticalThought said:
Not for lack of wanting. They kinda have a policy where they will kick me out the moment they figure out I'm gay. But I guess that works to your advantage. I'm not allowed to criticize the policy that restricts gays from serving because I haven't served, but I can't serve without fearing they find out I'm gay and kick me out. Nice way for you to silence opposition to your views.
Click to expand...

The only way they'll know, is if you tell'em. And, they can't ask.
 
apdst said:
Yeah, the IDF is clicking along just fine. 80% of the soldiers in the IDF have claimed to have been sexually harassed.

80% of IDF women claim harassment | j. the Jewish news weekly of Northern California
Click to expand...

You need to really do better than this. First off the body of the article does not match the headline, and here is a better article using the same data, and some important facts you neglected: Don't report sexual harassment, many female soldiers seem to think - Haaretz - Israel News

Rubinstein told the MKs that in 2008 some 363 sexual harassment complaints were filed, mainly by female soldiers doing their compulsory service.

Tuesday's discussion in the committee followed a bill proposed by MK Lia Shemtov (Yisrael Beiteinu) following a survey in the IDF that showed that one in seven female soldiers reported sexual harassment, either verbal or physical.
Click to expand...

1 in 7 is not 80 %.

In 43 percent of the cases, those accused of harassment were male soldiers also in compulsory service. In 5 percent of sexual harassment cases the victim was male.
Click to expand...

So it's roughly evenly split between strait and gay harassment. I suspect that number is somewhat skewed in that for a strait women, an gay women propositioning her is more likely to be seen by her as harassment than a strait guy, but that is just a supposition on my part.
 
Redress said:
You need to really do better than this. First off the body of the article does not match the headline, and here is a better article using the same data, and some important facts you neglected: Don't report sexual harassment, many female soldiers seem to think - Haaretz - Israel News



1 in 7 is not 80 %.



So it's roughly evenly split between strait and gay harassment. I suspect that number is somewhat skewed in that for a strait women, an gay women propositioning her is more likely to be seen by her as harassment than a strait guy, but that is just a supposition on my part.
Click to expand...


You shoulda look at the dates of the articles before you go off half cocked like that.

Redress said:
So it's roughly evenly split between strait and gay harassment. I suspect that number is somewhat skewed in that for a strait women, an gay women propositioning her is more likely to be seen by her as harassment than a strait guy, but that is just a supposition on my part.
Click to expand...

So, if the IDF had a DADT'esq policy, the sexual harassment rate would be cut in half. Thank you for finally admitting that the abolition of DADT will result in an increased number of sexual harassment cases.

It's like pulling ****ing hen's teeth, I swear!
 
Last edited:
apdst said:
The one thing that your ignorance of the military is proving, is your inability to understand that everyone in the military can be replaced. Our military is no less effective because a few gay soldiers have been discharged.
Click to expand...

Yeah, that is why they had a shortage of translators during the wars. :roll:

For someone who claims to be such an expert on the military, you sure know very little about how it conducts its business.

Still waiting to hear how this policy has saved more lives that it probably kills.

apdst said:
The only way they'll know, is if you tell'em. And, they can't ask.
Click to expand...

Wouldn't the world be a nicer place if that is how it actually worked? No, if they only suspect that you are gay, then they can kick you out. Try to inform yourself a little before commenting on this topic.
 
CriticalThought said:
Yeah, that is why they had a shortage of translators during the wars. :roll:
Click to expand...

So, most multi-linguil people are gay?



Still waiting to hear how this policy has saved more lives that it probably kills.
Click to expand...

Simple: more time training, less time dealing with bull****.



Wouldn't the world be a nicer place if that is how it actually worked? No, if they only suspect that you are gay, then they can kick you out. Try to inform yourself a little before commenting on this topic.
Click to expand...

I hate to rain on your pitty party, but that's not how it works.:rofl
 
apdst said:
I hate to rain on your pitty party, but that's not how it works.:rofl
Click to expand...

That is exactly how it works. People have been kicked out of the military for just being sighted with their partner when they are back at home.
 
CriticalThought said:
That is exactly how it works. People have been kicked out of the military for just being sighted with their partner when they are back at home.
Click to expand...

Let's see some proof of your allegations.

To my knowledge, a gay soldier has to be convicted under Article 125 of the UCMJ. To get that conviction, there has to be sufficient evidence of a violation of Article 125.
 
If a Guy is gay, I just ask they be up front about it. I got no problem. but I don't want to get a Surprise some cold wintry night, by finding a guy trying to spoon with me. Most disturbing.
 
Captain America said:
I knew some guys on the east coast that went UA and turned themselves in in San Diego just so they could go WesPac.

I also knew some guys that were straight as an arrow but would have no problem french kissing the old man if they thought they could get a discharge out of it. Kinda like Klinger on M.A.S.H. :roll:

I knew guys that would have NEVER smoked pot but did just so they could pop their piss test and get out.

I knew one guy, Rusty, that got buck naked and started firing his piece off into the water just so he could get out on a mental.

If all it takes to get out these days is to walk up and say, "I'm queer," how easy is that? I wonder if they have to prove it? Do they have to be Liza Minelli fans? Do they gotta blow the O.I.C., or what? :mrgreen:
Click to expand...


There were a lot of guys who joined and while in Boot Camp couldn't take it and decided ths was and easy way to get a discharge so they went to their Company Commnder and told him they were gay....That is grounds for discharge under don't ask don't tell.They get an honorable DC.........
 
apdst said:
Let's see some proof of your allegations.

To my knowledge, a gay soldier has to be convicted under Article 125 of the UCMJ. To get that conviction, there has to be sufficient evidence of a violation of Article 125.
Click to expand...

So what would that evidence be? Walking down the street while holding hands and kissing your partner?
 
apdst said:
You shoulda look at the dates of the articles before you go off half cocked like that.



So, if the IDF had a DADT'esq policy, the sexual harassment rate would be cut in half. Thank you for finally admitting that the abolition of DADT will result in an increased number of sexual harassment cases.

It's like pulling ****ing hen's teeth, I swear!
Click to expand...

No, it would not, because there would be fewer serving.
 
I don't think ... whenever Obama give an order or judge, anything he said I always found logical and right.

PS : He is the best right now
 
Good article about how many more soldiers/sailors and officers are fine with gays serving these days.

(My favorite part is when it calls them "liberal"! ;) )

More tolerance for gay troops as end of 'don't ask, don't tell' is debated - washingtonpost.com

More tolerance for gay troops as end of 'don't ask, don't tell' is debated

By Ernesto Londoño
Wednesday, February 10, 2010

BAGHDAD -- Days before a deployment to Iraq last year, the 26-year-old soldier's sergeant told his troops that they would get to know one another pretty well over the next few months.

"I'm in trouble," the specialist remembered thinking. He feared comrades would find out he is gay. Worse, he said, they could figure out that he has been dating another soldier in the combat arms battalion for more than five years. Their careers were on the line.

The reaction during the soldier's year-long deployment -- nobody asked about it -- offers new insight into how today's military might adapt to a repeal of the ban on openly gay service members sought by President Obama and top Pentagon officials. The specialist didn't exactly tell, but at the end of the tour, his sexual orientation had become a poorly kept secret -- and his career was undamaged.

"I don't know if I won any hearts and minds among the Iraqis," said the specialist, who returned home from Iraq recently. "But I did among my brothers in arms because I did my job well and went above and beyond. I was respected."

A younger and more liberal corps of commanders and soldiers has given rise to bubbles of tolerance in today's military, an institution that soldiers describe as still largely unwelcoming and wary of gays, according to interviews with more than a dozen enlisted troops and officers, both gay and straight.

...
 
apdst said:
When did this happen?



And, do you think that those translators are the only Arabic speaking people in the country?
Click to expand...

No, but we need them. First, they have a clearance, which your average Iraqi off the street does not. CAT 1 (Local National) interpreters aren't good for use because you can't say anything secret or classified to them, like you can with U.S. Military translators. I wish they wouldn't have gotten booted under DADT, we do need them very, very badly.
 
CriticalThought said:
So what would that evidence be? Walking down the street while holding hands and kissing your partner?
Click to expand...

I know of a Sergeant that caught two of his Soldiers having gay sex in the back of a humvee. Both were discharged under DADT.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom