Mayo Clinic in Arizona to Stop Treating Some Medicare Patients

j-mac said:

I didn't say he was necessarily wrong
j-mac

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It is great to know you had no intention of ever addressing what Berenson actually said and skipped straight to the character assassination.

j-mac said:

I didn't say he was necessarily wrong, I would confess that I am not privy to all the data that he may have, and I might add neither are you, or hazlnut. But, to take his conclusion at face value considering that he is such a big supporter of Obama and his plans, I think would be foolish.


j-mac

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Since basically every one has a political opinion, we should discount anything any one says?

Councilman said:

With the announcements in the reduction of medicare payments coming under Obama's I Don't Care About Your Health Plans, the House and Senate have become the Death panel they claim does not exist.

But because they a branches of the new corrupt to the max Obama disciple controlled Government and technically not a panel, they can continue to claim there is no such thing as a death panel.

If you go out and get some illness that the Obama plan to have die plan won't cover it's your own damn fault.

More and more of this is going to be happening and when doctors more out of fields like soo many have already done with O.B.G.Y.N. rationing becaomes a bigger problem.

You have to be a really stupid idiot to think for one minute the plans under consideration are going to do anything but make the best health care system comparable to Canada and the U.K. who both have systems that are almost as bad as Kenya or some other 3rd world garbage pit.

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You're falling for all the propaganda. Please read from someone who's experienced both Canadian and US health care.

Mythbusting Canadian Health Care -- Part I | OurFuture.org
I'm both a health-care-card-carrying Canadian resident and an uninsured American citizen who regularly sees doctors on both sides of the border. As such, I'm in a unique position to address the pros and cons of both systems first-hand. If we're going to have this conversation, it would be great if we could start out (for once) with actual facts, instead of ideological posturing, wishful thinking, hearsay, and random guessing about how things get done up here.

To that end, here's the first of a two-part series aimed at busting the common myths Americans routinely tell each other about Canadian health care. When the right-wing hysterics drag out these hoary old bogeymen, this time, we need to be armed and ready to blast them into straw. Because, mostly, straw is all they're made of.

Mythbusting Canadian Health Care, Part II: Debunking the Free Marketeers | OurFuture.org


Mythbusting Canadian Health Care, Part II: Debunking the Free Marketeers | OurFuture

Government-run health care is inherently less efficient -- because governments themselves are inherently less efficient.
If anything could finally put the lie to this old conservative canard, the disaster that is our health care system is Exhibit A.

America spends about 15% of its GDP on health care. Most other industrialized countries (all of whom have some form of universal care) spend about 11-12%. According to the WHO, Canada spends a bit over 9% -- and most of the problems within their system come out of the fact that it's chronically underfunded compared to the international average.

Any system that has people spending more and getting less is, by definition, not efficient. And these efficiency leaks are, almost entirely, due to private greed.

I was born and raised in the UK where a National Health Service system is in operation.

This NHS is paid for by the UK Taxpayers through being taxed on anything the UK Government can think of to Tax.

The standard of care is in decline within the NHS, they have (in spite of denials) mixed wards, patients being left in passage ways often without seeing a Dr. for up to 17 hours.

Any Government run system or business will eventually go bankrupt.
WHY?
Well you may ask, the answer is quite simple, all Countries are governed by people who should either be in Prison or in Mental institutions.

Government does not recognise that wealth has to be earned prior to being spent.

PeteEU said:

Most of these comments are hilarious, full of denial. Not once is the private insurance and medical industry blamed for anything.. all blame is put on government and the idea of UHC.. pathetic.

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Then maybe private insurance and the medical industry should just go away. That way you won't have anything to bitch about. We can just take care of our friends and family, and people like you can go ask the government for help. How does that sound?

PeteEU said:

Do you? Do you deny my comment that the problem lies with the insurance industry and the medical industry? That they are driving up the cost of healthcare in the US?

http://www.oecd.org/document/11/0,3343,en_2649_34631_16502667_1_1_1_1,00.html#B5

over 7000 dollars for every man, woman and child now per year..almost double that of the nearest country who btw, provides healthcare for all.

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Did you not bother to read the story?

"It lost $840 million last year on Medicare, the government’s health program for the disabled and those 65 and older, Mayo spokeswoman Lynn Closway said."

Now what do you believe, the Mayo Clinic just wrote off $840 million and called it a loss or they made up for it by charging insurance companies more?

Why should insurance companies subsidize Medicare?
Why is it ok for the government to receive a type of corporate welfare?

OKgrannie said:

You're falling for all the propaganda. Please read from someone who's experienced both Canadian and US health care.

Mythbusting Canadian Health Care -- Part I | OurFuture.org
I'm both a health-care-card-carrying Canadian resident and an uninsured American citizen who regularly sees doctors on both sides of the border. As such, I'm in a unique position to address the pros and cons of both systems first-hand. If we're going to have this conversation, it would be great if we could start out (for once) with actual facts, instead of ideological posturing, wishful thinking, hearsay, and random guessing about how things get done up here.

To that end, here's the first of a two-part series aimed at busting the common myths Americans routinely tell each other about Canadian health care. When the right-wing hysterics drag out these hoary old bogeymen, this time, we need to be armed and ready to blast them into straw. Because, mostly, straw is all they're made of.

Mythbusting Canadian Health Care, Part II: Debunking the Free Marketeers | OurFuture.org

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Rrrrright because personal experience always trumps facts.

OKgrannie said:

Mythbusting Canadian Health Care, Part II: Debunking the Free Marketeers | OurFuture

Government-run health care is inherently less efficient -- because governments themselves are inherently less efficient.
If anything could finally put the lie to this old conservative canard, the disaster that is our health care system is Exhibit A.

America spends about 15% of its GDP on health care. Most other industrialized countries (all of whom have some form of universal care) spend about 11-12%. According to the WHO, Canada spends a bit over 9% -- and most of the problems within their system come out of the fact that it's chronically underfunded compared to the international average.

Any system that has people spending more and getting less is, by definition, not efficient. And these efficiency leaks are, almost entirely, due to private greed.

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So we are going to assume that because the states spend more that it is automatically inferior?

You need more data and less emo hand wringing.

And speaking of private greed, do doctors, nurses and all the other health care workers do their jobs for free or only make enough money to support the necessities of life?

Are they greedy for wanting more money than they need?

Harry Guerrilla said:

Now what do you believe, the Mayo Clinic just wrote off $840 million and called it a loss or they made up for it by charging insurance companies more?

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And that cost was most likely passed onto the consumer.

So, basically, what happens is:

1. Government raises prices for the consumer.

2. The consumer complains to the government.

3. The government blames the insurance company, and the consumer believes them.

Politicians...

Harry Guerrilla said:

And speaking of private greed, do doctors, nurses and all the other health care workers do their jobs for free or only make enough money to support the necessities of life?

Are they greedy for wanting more money than they need?

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My uncle is a radiologist. Right now he's think of switching careers.

ptif219 said:

So we should expect more inferior healthcare under the new government plan

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Nope, but we should not have to pay more for the same type of treatment that cost less at let's say Cigna.

If you can receive the same care for less the cost, then why should the gov't pay a higher amount. Now if you choose to use Mayo because of their reputation, then that is your choice, and you should pay for it. Or, you should pay for an insurance that will cover Mayo.

If I go to the store, and I have two identical items, one generic and one brand name, I will pay for the generic because it cost less. Now if you want to purchase the brand name that is your choice, and you should be able to purchase it.

MrVicchio said:

You think this is about the Mayo Clinic being over priced?

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Yes, I do.

Mayo wants to charge more and the gov't wants to pay less. This doesn't only happen with gov't ran insurances.

Most insurance companies have a schedule/list of prices they will pay for certain procedures. Is the price fair or are the prices fair market value? I don't know, but are the prices that MD's charging fair market value or inflated?

Ethereal said:

My uncle is a radiologist. Right now he's think of switching careers.

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I wouldn't worry about that immediately, they won't do very much to change the pay structure of what doctors and health care workers make.

I'd be more worried if I were in the insurance business though.

TBone said:

Yes, I do.

Mayo wants to charge more and the gov't wants to pay less. This doesn't only happen with gov't ran insurances.

Most insurance companies have a schedule/list of prices they will pay for certain procedures. Is the price fair or are the prices fair market value? I don't know, but are the prices that MD's charging fair market value or inflated?

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It's fair market value because others are willing to pay it.

ptif219 said:

So we should expect more inferior healthcare under the new government plan

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You can expect a lot of medical professionals to retire or change careers. You can also expect potential medical professionals to reconsider entering the field. I know I am.

ptif219 said:

So can the left and Obama explain how a medical facility can run if medicare is paying less then the care cost?

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It can run just fine, provided that private insurers reimburse the facility at a rate that exceeds the cost of those private procedures + the shortfall of the medicare payments.

PeteEU said:

Most of these comments are hilarious, full of denial. Not once is the private insurance and medical industry blamed for anything.. all blame is put on government and the idea of UHC.. pathetic.

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It's not an attack on private insurance because the private insurers are not to blame for this. The facility is refusing to take a wide range of Medicare payments because the government doesn't pay enough.

PeteEU said:

Do you? Do you deny my comment that the problem lies with the insurance industry and the medical industry? That they are driving up the cost of healthcare in the US?

http://www.oecd.org/document/11/0,3343,en_2649_34631_16502667_1_1_1_1,00.html#B5

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They "drive up the cost" in the same way that giving everyone government provided Cadillac plans would "drive up the cost" of health care. Private insurers drive up costs by allowing people to get procedures and treatment that they wouldn't otherwise get.

over 7000 dollars for every man, woman and child now per year..almost double that of the nearest country who btw, provides healthcare for all.

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This is one of the most annoying statistics to hear cited, because it is most commonly misused in the way you're doing now - to argue that our expenditures are higher because of some problem with our system.

Yes, per capita healthcare spending in the US is significantly higher that in is in most other countries. Why? It's not due to inefficiencies or private insurers, but is almost exclusively due to the fact that we're full of obese people.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/10/opinion/10pollan.html

No one disputes that the $2.3 trillion we devote to the health care industry is often spent unwisely, but the fact that the United States spends twice as much per person as most European countries on health care can be substantially explained, as a study released last month says, by our being fatter.

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Do you see the difference? We could install a carbon copy of whatever European UHC program you think is best, and we would still be paying almost twice what every other country pays.

If you want to criticize our health care system, please do so based on the actual problems with it, not based on factors that will remain unchanged under any system.

Harry Guerrilla said:

It's fair market value because others are willing to pay it.

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No argument here, capitalism at its best. I am all for it. If I want a superior product, I pay for it. If I can get the same product for less, I will pay for the product that is priced less.

I would venture to say that a large majority on this forum would agree or do the same.

RightinNYC said:

This is one of the most annoying statistics to hear cited, because it is most commonly misused in the way you're doing not - to argue that our expenditures are higher because of some problem with our system.

Yes, per capita healthcare spending in the US is significantly higher that in is in most other countries. Why? It's not due to inefficiencies or private insurers, but is almost exclusively due to the fact that we're full of obese people.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/10/opinion/10pollan.html

Do you see the difference? We could install a carbon copy of whatever European UHC program you think is best, and we would still be paying almost twice what every other country pays.

If you want to criticize our health care system, please do so based on the actual problems with it, not based on factors that will remain unchanged under any system.

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Obesity is also the most likely reason for why the US has a lower life expectancy when compared to other modern nations. For instance, France has approximately half our mortality rate for heart disease.

France: http://www.who.int/whosis/mort/profiles/mort_euro_fra_france.pdf ; https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/fr.html .

US: FASTSTATS - Deaths and Mortality ; US & World Population Clock .

It can and has been argued that medical costs have risen so much largely because of insurance. When people were responsible for paying for their own medical need, they saw the actual costs of the services and were more frugal in using them. No trips to the emergency room for minor scrapes or runny noses.

When business funded insurance became the norm, people were only responsible for paying a small copay, so tended to go to the doctor much more often when they really didn't need to. Since insurance companies pay on a scale that doesn't take into consideration such things as local cost of living, real-estate costs, etc. the doctors were not getting paid enough to cover costs so the doctors started charging more. Over time we have seen prices rise dramatically.

However, the insurance agencies were not the real problem. Over that same time frame, 60's to present, the number of people getting their medical coverage from the government has skyrocketed. The government pays dramatically less for the same services than the insurance agencies do. So the doctors again raise prices that they bill the insurance companies.

There have been some steps taken over the years that have helped. Health Savings accounts are great. Money you put into a health savings account is tax free as long as you leave it in the account or use it for health care. Combine the HSA with a catastrophic coverage policy and you have a low cost insurance plan with incentive to save as well as encouraging responsible use of health care facilities.

HSA are outlawed under the Obamacare plan.

For those of you who don't have health insurance, tell the doctor up front that you are paying cash and your prices are often 40-60% lower than the price charged to the insurance companies. They still make money on you, but they don't have to spend all those hours fighting with the insurance companies or the government to get paid. Most doctors that I have seen in the past year were happy to see me as they knew they would actually get paid for the work they were doing.

Ethereal said:

Obesity is also the most likely reason for why the US has a lower life expectancy when compared to other modern nations. For instance, France has approximately half our mortality rate for heart disease.

France: http://www.who.int/whosis/mort/profiles/mort_euro_fra_france.pdf ; https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/fr.html .

US: FASTSTATS - Deaths and Mortality ; US & World Population Clock .

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Obesity in Europe is on the rise, with no end in sight.

http://www.annecollins.com/obesity/worldwide-obesity.htm

http://www.dur.ac.uk/ne.pho/view_file.php?c=564

Ethereal said:

Obesity is also the most likely reason for why the US has a lower life expectancy when compared to other modern nations. For instance, France has approximately half our mortality rate for heart disease.

France: http://www.who.int/whosis/mort/profiles/mort_euro_fra_france.pdf ; https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/fr.html .

US: FASTSTATS - Deaths and Mortality ; US & World Population Clock .

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After you remove for homicides and car accidents, the U.S. has the highest life expectancy.
It's one of those fun with numbers situations that people like to believe without putting an ounce of research into it.

Even after all that though, life expectancy is a poor way to measure the quality of a medical care system.

American said:

Obesity in Europe is on the rise, with no end in sight.

Obesity Worldwide - Global Overweight

http://www.dur.ac.uk/ne.pho/view_file.php?c=564

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Then you can expect their life expectancies to decrease accordingly...:2razz:

I would add to this discussion the fact that if we could eliminate substantially the three modern plagues in the U.S., obesity, high blood pressure and diabetes our overall life expectancy would probably rise 10 years.

It astonishes me how badly some people treat their health. If anyone has had the opportunity of watching "Dr. G." on television she is a medical examiner who regularly has to determine the cause of death in very young people and the incidence of heart disease is terrible and one of the major causes is high blood pressure. When she weighs the heart it is often twice the normal weight. When it gets to that point the life expectancy of anyone is greatly diminished.

And then we cram our mouths with everything under the sun. It is a wonder we don't weigh twice what we weigh and live as long a we do. The amount of food at restaurants they serve today is ridiculous. There is a local restaurant we went the other day and my wife and I split one meal. We still had enough left over to bring home to make our evening meal. In other words we had enough for four full adult meals. And I'm a hearty eater if that tells you anything.

Harry Guerrilla said:

After you remove for homicides and car accidents, the U.S. has the highest life expectancy.
It's one of those fun with numbers situations that people like to believe without putting an ounce of research into it.

Even after all that though, life expectancy is a poor way to measure the quality of a medical care system.

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You ever watch those ER shows on the Discovery Channel? The attending physician was heard to remark quite frequently, "This is not a random occurrence."

This was in reference to the people winding up in the ER.

Drunk driving on a motorcycle.

Drunk and fell down some stairs.

Gang members shooting each other.

Basically, if we're unhealthy, it's because we're fat and stupid.

Ethereal said:

You ever watch those ER shows on the Discovery Channel? The attending physician was heard to remark quite frequently, "This is not a random occurrence."

This was in reference to the people winding up in the ER.

Drunk driving on a motorcycle.

Drunk and fell down some stairs.

Gang members shooting each other.

Basically, if we're unhealthy, it's because we're fat and stupid.

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Fat, drunk, and stupid is no way to go through life, America.

Ethereal said:

You ever watch those ER shows on the Discovery Channel? The attending physician was heard to remark quite frequently, "This is not a random occurrence."

This was in reference to the people winding up in the ER.

Drunk driving on a motorcycle.

Drunk and fell down some stairs.

Gang members shooting each other.

Basically, we're fat and stupid.

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Pretty much the case, there are a few other reasons mostly overlooked.
It basically boils down to being fat and stupid and our racial make up.

There are some other things that do effect it as well but, by my estimates,not to the degree as those mentioned do.