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Passenger Ignites Explosive on Delta Flight, Al Qaeda Connection Reported

I certainly do agree someone was asleep at the switch. Regardless of whatever systems after the bombing attempt worked or not, the screenings BEFORE the plane left Nigeria did not work. That guy should never have been let on the plane.

but that's just what the partisans are saying

that, and mr abdulmutallab was no "isolated extremist"

he was a significantly "connected terrorist"

the president's a putz
 
Really? Bush's Homeland Security guy was on Larry King Monday night defending Napolotino's statement and saying it made sense to him.

She obviously believed it, otherwise, why would she say it!

Caught being partisan, continuing makes it worse.

I already noted I'm both Partisan and proud on this one, attacking with guns blazing. The system failed..miserably. Janet boned up and isn't qualified to wash Ridge's laundry. again, you cannot address why Obama is still calling this an isolated incident, you don't want to admit these events are occurring months after Obama's olive branch from Cairo, and you don't want admit Janet was wrong and Obama is as well.

However, I certainly do agree someone was asleep at the switch.

How could you not? And given you believe this, the system worked? You're gonna defend Napolotano's statement? You're going to say someone was asleep and then try to agree with Obama that this was an isolated incident?

Ahem.....lil partisan don't ya think?

That guy should never have been let on the plane.

Then why is she saying the system worked and doesn't she have to be dismissed now?
 
Informative post. All answers are basically simple ones, and you've stated the problem very clearly here.

What is the solution?

It starts with acknowledgement. Muslims want the West to acknowledge that Islam isn't the problem then they have acknowledge that the Sunni is. But since the Sunni make up 80~90 percent of Islam's population, Islam pretty much equals Sunni (which is why all of Islam's prescriptions direct all Muslims towards the Sunni tribe). Hell of a predicament.


Islam's best kept denial....

Many of the Taliban were educated in Saudi-financed madrassas in Pakistan that teach Wahhabism, a particularly austere and rigid form of Islam which is rooted in Saudi Arabia. Around the world, Saudi wealth and charities contributed to an explosive growth of madrassas during the Afghan jihad against the Soviets. During that war (1979-1989), a new kind of madrassa emerged in the Pakistan-Afghanistan region -- not so much concerned about scholarship as making war on infidels. The enemy then was the Soviet Union, today it's America.PBS - frontline: saudi time bomb?: analyses: madrassas

This article has some analyses of these madrasas and include interviews with Vali Nasr, an authority on Islamic fundamentalism.

It's also interesting and ironic how the Sauds have spread their loyalty insurance. The official Saudi newspaper, Ain Al-Yaqeen described royal expenditures on “education” as “astronomical” in 2002. Over the decades they built 1500 mosques, 202 colleges, and 2000 Muslim schools. How many of these were in Muslim countries? 0. However, they were established throughout non-Islamic countries in Europe, North and South America, Australia, and Asia.

This is why so many actual terrorists upon the West come from non-Muslim countries. Why they plot across Europe in Muslim ghettos. Why Al-Queda can get away with claiming to know the nobody individuals in London, Spain, Algeria, Yemen, Germany, etc. Fanatics attend these madrassas, which are funded by Sauds and Muslims elsewhere, and they graduate enemies of the West and Saudi Arabia. Irony. Plenty of fanatics merely learn from the graduates on how to properly hate and murder for God.
 
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Look at the bright side--they did prevent that four year old in his stroller from doing any serious damage.
 
Spanning the term Sunni Arab loyalists to include Ethiopia, Chad, Somalia, and the Philippines suggests that these militants are banded together under Sunni Islam, and that they reject their selfish desires. I believe this is a fallacy in an analysis of Islamic Extremism.

Of course they have their own agendas. But they all root it to Sunni fanaticism and reach back to the most extreme of the Sunni tribe to justify it. Without that religious justification as prescribed by Sunni leaders, so much of Islam's religious terror would simply evaporate into mere coups and rebellions. All the nations in the West had selfish desires during both World Wars, but they agreed on distinct things that kept them united. Add in religion as that ultimate tie and you have the Middle East.

80 to 90 percent of Islam is Sunni so there is a Sunni mentality that runs through the entirety of Islam, especially in this region. Muhammed himself has a Bedouin Sunni root. The explosion of Islam after Muhammed's death swallowed up tribes and brought them into the Sunni fold. No matter their culture or language, God was to hear their prayers in only Arabic and they were to face into the heart of the Sunni Arab capital. I believe there is more to this than just an innocent prescription about God. To say otherwise means that we should consider that the Catholic Church kept God's language in Latin and the path to salvation through a man of the cloth for sincere holy reasons too. But we know better than this. Maybe we should start acknowledgeing that Islam is a religion of man as well.
 
MSgt. Your posts are serious and challenging. Not the usual hatefest. I do think islam needs a reformation too. And I speak as an agnostic Catholic. The Reformation considerably improved the RC Church in time and this should be borne in mind for islamic reformations. Kemal Attaturk also secularized Turkey, which remains an islamic country.

Islam needs to be challenged. But it needs to be done in a way that will work, not one that will antagonize.
 
Kemal Attaturk also secularized Turkey, which remains an islamic country.

Islam needs to be challenged. But it needs to be done in a way that will work, not one that will antagonize.
Just to note. . .Moderate Muslim reformers will always antagonize radical Islamists. Turkey is one example. Iran another.
 
Suggestions?;)

Well the post above you. It will be much more effective to engage with the Iranian opposition rather than trash all islam for example. And Scummy, I think we should antagonize islamofascists. That is not the same as antagonizing muslims.

On the wider question, I think that a more temperate understanding of islamic scrupture would help. There are plenty of hateful Christian scriptures and is inflammatory to get into cherry picking context about the savagery of ancient religions. I think we need to understand the reformist muslims more and engage with them, respecting their religion and encourgaing engagement. We can do this as we are very strong in defending our own Judeo Christian, post enlightenment, secular democratic values.

What I do know is that millions of Westerners travel and live in muslim countries every day without hostility. Anatagonizing 1.2 billion people to satisfy the testosterone excesses of a few right wingers is just a stupid idea. So we can start with facing down islamophobia and the hate politics it comes with.
 
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Well the post above you. It will be much more effective to engage with the Iranian opposition rather than trash all islam for example. And Scummy, I think we should antagonize islamofascists. That is not the same as antagonizing muslims.


Hello Plato, Long time no banter. I believe that in our recent history we have taken steps to engage the Iranian dissent, however, we haven't ever done enough to stand behind them and offer much more than lip service. Obama is no better in this regard, and in fact may be worse, because he displays that he doesn't have the fortitude to do much more than straddle the fence, or display weakness.


On the wider question, I think that a more temperate understanding of islamic scrupture would help. There are plenty of hateful Christian scriptures and is inflammatory to get into cherry picking context about the savagery of ancient religions.


Christians didn't start this round. This came from Muslim radicals. It does no good to bash Christianity as some kind of willingness offering when your enemy could care less. Muslim radicals are running with free will, and the majority of so called 'peaceful' Muslims are keeping their mouths shut about it. You know what we call that when it concerns a crime committed? Compliancy and it also is a crime.


I think we need to understand the reformist muslims more and engage with them, respecting their religion and encourgaing engagement. We can do this as we are very strong in defending our own Judeo Christian, post enlightenment, secular democratic values.


"Reformist Muslims"??? Who might they be? Have we identified any that haven't been killed by the radicals? Who among Islam today is going to stick their neck out in order to bridge an Islamic appeasement toward the Western Infedels? Not one that I can see. So all you have really is Obama sitting at a table begging. Good plan.


What I do know is that millions of Westerners travel and live in muslim countries every day without hostility.


Really, do you have figures to back this up? What has been the trend since 2001? I think you pulled that one out of thin air.


Anatagonizing 1.2 billion people to satisfy the testosterone excesses of a few right wingers is just a stupid idea.


:slapme:Fail! A prime example of how self loathing liberals just have to blame America itself for being attacked by radical Muslims on 9/11. What a crock of shi'ite! Tell me Plato, while we are prostrating ourselves in front of our enemy, shall we bare our necks as well to offer them unfettered access? Because after all we are the problem right? I mean if we hadn't forced them to attack us and all....:roll::cuckoo:


So we can start with facing down islamophobia and the hate politics it comes with.


Ah yes, so your enemy in this struggle, is not with those that killed 3,000 innocents on 9/11 but rather, from within against those that don't believe as you do that you need to appease. Ain't that just great! :doh


j-mac
 
It will be much more effective to engage with the Iranian opposition rather than trash all islam for example.

Suggestions of this engagement? As if we don't have decades of engaging, as if the Europeans haven't tried. Please, in detail, what are your suggestions, what does it mean to engage:)

On the wider question, I think that a more temperate understanding of islamic scrupture would help.

Would you suggest their lead by example temperate understanding of Christian scripture...or the Declaration of Independence?

Ok, I'll run with this...we get a lil more temperate and understanding...go on.

I think we need to understand the reformist muslims more and engage with them, respecting their religion and encourgaing engagement. We can do this as we are very strong in defending our own Judeo Christian, post enlightenment, secular democratic values.

1) Who exactly are the more reformist Muslims? Exactly? Aren't these the people Obama is afraid to "engage" in Iran on the excuse that he'll offend the less reformist Muslims?

2) Even though I see Islamic relations initiatives internationally. And I do see and note reformist Muslims....neither you nor any of those strong in their secular democratic values, can deny the much less reformist Muslim is trying to engage us...on a daily basis. I would hope your suggestion here that we engage reformists, comes with the realization that the non-reformists very much are reaching out to touch us. today.

So we can start with facing down islamophobia and the hate politics it comes with.

Quit with the Obama answers, do what exactly? What do we do to face down "Islamophobia?" And where do you see hate politics? Your generalizations tough to debate, are they on purpose?
 
mcveigh.jpg


How about this fine looking young man Timothy Macviegh
CrimeLibrary.com/Terrorists, Spies & Assassins/Terrorists


Here are a bunch of cases were bombs were bought by a lot of different races, creeds, ectt.


SO profiling by race doesn't work.

What did I just state about exceptions? Profiling doesn't mean that others are completely overlooked. Perhaps this is why people are having difficulty with such a simple thing. For fear of the exception, let's go ahead and let the 18 obvious possibilities on board? Of course not. But profiling doesn't mean that pro-active investigations into shady figures of any color ends either.

In the end, terrorists are going to be successful because it is impossible to know what lurks in the hearts of all men at all times. But we don't sit by and roll the dice either for fear of offending people.
 
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MSgt. Your posts are serious and challenging. Not the usual hatefest. I do think islam needs a reformation too. And I speak as an agnostic Catholic. The Reformation considerably improved the RC Church in time and this should be borne in mind for islamic reformations. Kemal Attaturk also secularized Turkey, which remains an islamic country.

Islam needs to be challenged. But it needs to be done in a way that will work, not one that will antagonize.

Another general truth is that the furthest away from the heartland of Islam Muslims get the healthier they are. Some of this is because opportunity awaits on the other side of the tracks. But some of this is that they get away from the Sunni strangle hold on Islam. Attaturk was not a Sunni. The Sunni typically look upon Turks as not being real Muslims because they are converts. They also happen to be the ones that ended 1400 years of Caliphate tradition when they abolished the Sultan. The Shia are treated like garbage either through tribal prejudices or by the written law. And it weas the Sunni that fought and denied the Ottoman's their attemts to reform Islam ever since they lost stewardship after the Crusades.

Reformation is indeed needed. I just don't think it is practical without an enormous amount of further bloodshed and slaughter. I believe they are going to run right out of time. And when the rest of the world can no longer purchase oil from them it will no longer care about their "health." If we think the narcotic of blame that exists now is bad...
 
Quit with the Obama answers, do what exactly? What do we do to face down "Islamophobia?" And where do you see hate politics? Your generalizations tough to debate, are they on purpose?

Of course they are on purpose, but it is only because nobody has a clue what to do about it and most don't even understand the problems as they rush to spew bumper sticker wisdom and reporter influenced opinion. Bush, Obama, regional experts, all have ideas and little dents of possibilities, but in the end this is a regional problem that is largely ignored by the regional players and it is they that have to ultimately bear the burden of this effort. "Islamophobia" is largely a term for the weaker petrified folk who wish to feel above this world's reality and without the unpoliticially correct criticism. They have no problems criticizing Christians though. Perhaps they are mere "Christianphobes."

Here is some general understanding that we give our (your) Marines...

1) Root Cause - The Muslim Brotherhood was founded in 1928 by Hassan al Banna and the vast majority of terrorists are members, however most Radicals are not. The majority of Islamic Radicals are "the sea from which the terrorists swim" and are revered. The cancer of Radical Islam grows where socio-economic conditions are poor; governments are repressive and unable to provide essential social services, such as providing adequate oversight of their educational system….or have allowed / sanctioned Radical Islamic curricula. Islamic fundamentalism has given an aim and form to the otherwise aimless and formless resentment and anger of the Muslim masses at the forces that have devalued their traditional values and loyalties and, in the final analysis, robbed them of their beliefs, their aspirations, their dignity, and to an increasing extent even their livelihood. Frustrated by the complete inability to exert any discernible degree of control over their immediate circumstances, frustrated adherents of Radical Islam, goaded by Radical Islamic Clerics, will resort to terrorism as the only avenue to effect religious, social, political, and economic change.

2) Short Term Solution - Radical Islam is a precursor to terrorism. It lays the ideological and religious foundation for Islamic-inspired violence and, as such, represents a long-term threat to the national security of the United States of America. The ongoing Global War on Terrorism targets the current generation of terrorists; however, unless the ideology that spawned them is also countered the long-term threat to the U.S. will exponentially grow with time.

3) Long Term Solution - Thus, when dealing with a culture in which only faith and family matter to our enemies, we insist on making war on governments and negotiating with political organizations that are no more than mobs with diplomatic representation. We have to start dealing with people and tribes while dealing with their corrupt governments. Here are some "solutions" that have been tossed around at military conferences and briefs over the years. *Note...Some of these are active operations and some are general sentiments of the intel community.

a - Acknowledge the threat posed by Radical Islam. (Amazing how so much of the world contiunues to pretend that a mere few rogues are the problem.)

b - We are not targeting Islam, just the Radical Islamists – we better say so and often.

c - Support the moderate voices (indirectly).

d - Focus our efforts on the long term enemy = the creation of more Radical Islamists.

e - Garner worldwide support for this effort. After enough people around the globe have died (and they will) this will come naturally.

f - Designate DOS (Department of State) as lead agency against countering Radical Islam.

g - Following recognition of the threat – fund the programs necessary to counter it.

h - Reorganize foreign assistance funding and efforts creating DOS “Regional Directors” that actually control assets = Reorganize DOS along Geographical vice Functional Lines (much like DoD Combatant CDRs).

i - Review Current Foreign Policy Focusing on Taking the Political Ammunition Away From the Radical Extremists.

j - Resolve Israeli / Palestinian and Indian / Pakistani disputes.

k - We must succeed in both Afghanistan and Iraq….and ensure these are perceived as successes in the Muslim world.

l - Counter Radical Islamic Media = Counter Al Jazeera and like Radical Islamic media….without appearing to do so.

m - Reestablish funding for cultural outreach programs cut following the end of the "Cold War."

n - Give voice to moderate Islamic leaders (indirectly).

o - Support Programs Dedicated to Providing Educational Reform in Threatened Countries. (The official Saudi newspaper, Ain Al-Yaqeen, described royal expenditures on “education” as “astronomical.” (Mar 2002) They built 1500 mosques, 202 colleges, and 2000 Muslim schools. These were established throughout non-Islamic countries in Europe, North and South America, Australia, and Asia. None in the Middle East.)

p - Governments with strong governmental oversight over the education of their young must be rewarded; likewise those that do not provide such oversight must be punished.

q - AT HOME = Constitutional / Legal Review of activities surrounding fundamentalist religions that pose a domestic threat, – we face a new threat and our legal system is ill equipped to handle it. Witness GITMO and the idiotic conduct of our politicians and citizens over it.


More problems in the MENA Region....

- The populations within the next 25 years…
Egypt’s population will increase by 38%
Jordan’s by 67%
Syria’s by 58%
Saudi Arabia’s by 94%
Pakistan’s by 69%, and
Israel’s by 39%

- Decreasing Fresh Water Supplies: MENA region faces precipitous decrease in per capita fresh water supply.

- Economic doldrums / disaster: Regional unemployment for ages 15-35 = 40%…and growing. ….mostly males….who can’t afford to get married……...

- No known solutions to these problems, save one = Jihad.

Only democracies have shown agility to deal with such problems. In the absence of answers victims will look for scapegoats. Radical Islamic clerics provide the scapegoat for the problems facing the Arab/Islamic world. "Their problems are the fault of the West, specifically the US." (How many Americans feed into their blame game?) Either we find a way to support the affected countries in finding their own solutions to these problems or our future generations will be fighting another World War, but centered around the wastelands of the Middle East.
 
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Profiling is the wisdom to not let your child venture into a kennel filled with Pitt Bulls. No doubt, some Pitt Bulls are the gentlest creatures on God's green earth. But there are others, they we read about on a consistant basis, that just love to chew up little children.

I say we go with the profiling, however, be wise enough to know that other dogs bite too.
 
What did I just state about exceptions? Profiling doesn't mean that others are completely overlooked. Perhaps this is why people are having difficulty with such a simple thing. For fear of the exception, let's go ahead and let the 18 obvious possibilities on board? Of course not. But profiling doesn't mean that pro-active investigations into shady figures of any color ends either.

In the end, terrorists are going to be successful because it is impossible to know what lurks in the hearts of all men at all times.
But we don't sit by and roll the dice either for fear of offending people.

I want to amend that to:
Sometimes they will be sucessful.....;)
I agree 100% with the your statement.....;)
I don't know if it was mentioned, but an extra hard look at those with foreign passports would be smart as well, in fact, it should be the first profiling step......;)
 
Profiling is the wisdom to not let your child venture into a kennel filled with Pitt Bulls. No doubt, some Pitt Bulls are the gentlest creatures on God's green earth. But there are others, they we read about on a consistant basis, that just love to chew up little children.

I say we go with the profiling, however, be wise enough to know that other dogs bite too.

Great post with great analogy. Of course they profile. We all profile.
I have pulled up to park my motorcycle next to an occupied car and seen the owner push the door lock button down. I was in full leathers but do not have colors on but to this person they just felt safer with door locked. So be it.

But you are so correct in that other dogs bite too. The terrorist are well aware they are profiled so that is why they will recruit blond haired blue eyed devils from our own country. And they won't always be male dogs either.
 
Profiling is the wisdom to not let your child venture into a kennel filled with Pitt Bulls. No doubt, some Pitt Bulls are the gentlest creatures on God's green earth. But there are others, they we read about on a consistant basis, that just love to chew up little children.

I say we go with the profiling, however, be wise enough to know that other dogs bite too.

Children should never interact with any dog unsupervised. Profile all dogs and humans.
 
Great post with great analogy. Of course they profile. We all profile.
I have pulled up to park my motorcycle next to an occupied car and seen the owner push the door lock button down. I was in full leathers but do not have colors on but to this person they just felt safer with door locked. So be it.

But you are so correct in that other dogs bite too. The terrorist are well aware they are profiled so that is why they will recruit blond haired blue eyed devils from our own country. And they won't always be male dogs either.

That's a bit of a racist comment......;)
I think I'm offended......:)
 
Great post with great analogy. Of course they profile. We all profile.
I have pulled up to park my motorcycle next to an occupied car and seen the owner push the door lock button down. I was in full leathers but do not have colors on but to this person they just felt safer with door locked. So be it.

And if that same person wants to hate black people and discriminate against them, they can, because they're a private person.

Our government is held to to a higher standard.
 
And if that same person wants to hate black people and discriminate against them, they can, because they're a private person.

Our government is held to to a higher standard.

Well, that's the illusion anyway. Our government has dropped nuclear bombs on civilians, supported dictators, and crawled through the gutter when it has had to. If there's profiling that needs to be done, they will do it. This "higher standard" for a government in our position is mostly an illusion.
 
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Well, that's the illusion anyway. Our government has dropped nuclear bombs on civilians, supported dictators, and crawled through the gutter when it has had to. If there's profiling that needs to be done, they will do it. This "higher standard" for a government in our position is mostly an illusion.

The difference from my perspective is that there's nothing in the Constitution about bombing civilians or supporting dictators, while there are plenty of things dealing with racial and religious discrimination. Many of the occasions where we have justified discrimination in the name of national security have later been regretted.
 
The difference from my perspective is that there's nothing in the Constitution about bombing civilians or supporting dictators, while there are plenty of things dealing with racial and religious discrimination. Many of the occasions where we have justified discrimination in the name of national security have later been regretted.

Well, certainly. But the reality exists and so does the necessity of all those nasty little secrets and obvious offenses towards others to create that security. We can regret them all day. But there will always be more to regret in the future. This sense of "higher standard" is largely an illusion, but still more real than those across the pond.
 
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What ever is vaguely referenced here in "discrimination in the name of national security" is only lamented from within the bubble of comfort and convenience now enjoyed by its critics. Only after the enjoyment of that safety and ease of living is it regretted.
 
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What ever is vaguely referenced here in "discrimination in the name of national security" is only lamented from within the bubble of comfort and convenience now enjoyed by its critics. Only after the enjoyment of that safety and ease of living is it regretted.

So you're saying that people sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf?

Very interesting.
 
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