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Senate OKs health care measure, reaching milestone

Kal'Stang said:
Yes you can refuse treatment. No one is forced into getting something that they do not want. Until this HCB came along that is.
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Only to a point, and few do. If you can't speak, and no one has access to your wishes, which is common in emergency situations outside the hospital, you get treated. Thousands get spent before anyone is aware.



If they required a lump sum first then I wouldn't get it.

And you underestimate my ability.
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Maybe. But I doubt it, but know most could not.
 
apdst said:
What do you think is going to happen under Obamacare?
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I don't have a clue. Nobody does. In four years they could scrap the whole program and start over. I don't believe it is the end of the world like some.
We have bigger problems that could ruin the country.
 
Dirty Harry said:
I don't have a clue. Nobody does. In four years they could scrap the whole program and start over. I don't believe it is the end of the world like some.
We have bigger problems that could ruin the country.
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Right. I think it will be a work in progress for some time.
 
Boo Radley said:
Right. I think it will be a work in progress for some time.
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Who knows with all the spin and drama created by both sides? I do believe it's possible to create a good government plan, but the current bunch of bozos in government are not smart enough to come up with one.
 
Dirty Harry said:
I don't have a clue. Nobody does. In four years they could scrap the whole program and start over. I don't believe it is the end of the world like some.
We have bigger problems that could ruin the country.
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You must have missed the part about all the new taxes...:rofl
 
Boo Radley said:
Right. I think it will be a work in progress for some time.
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Call me crazy, but I think it would be a good idea to get all that figgered out before making it a law.
 
Congress is either too liberal or too conservative to make any progress. Yes that's what I said, even conservatives can be progressive.

The right seems to be just preventing anything and everything, and the left is not being strong enough or just completely ignoring the right altogether.

I agree that they could have come up with a good government plan, but Obama has made a stupid move in trying to be more "centrist," while its actually harming him more than being more liberal. If he were more liberal with this issue, we would actually get more passed.
 
apdst said:
Call me crazy, but I think it would be a good idea to get all that figgered out before making it a law.
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Seldom works that way. Waiting, as we have in the past, only means we do nothing. I realize some would prefer it that way. But for those who want reform, the only chance is to move forward, even if it isn't perfect now.
 
Dirty Harry said:
Who knows with all the spin and drama created by both sides? I do believe it's possible to create a good government plan, but the current bunch of bozos in government are not smart enough to come up with one.
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It's always less than perfect. The push and pull often leaves us trying to get past how foolish we look. ;)
 
Boo Radley said:
It's always less than perfect. The push and pull often leaves us trying to get past how foolish we look. ;)
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I think we all can agree that implementing broad tax hikes in a recession is a bad idea. So do you think that instead of plunging head long into an expensive program that is going to cost great amounts of money should be done right, instead of fast?


j-mac
 
j-mac said:
I think we all can agree that implementing broad tax hikes in a recession is a bad idea. So do you think that instead of plunging head long into an expensive program that is going to cost great amounts of money should be done right, instead of fast?


j-mac
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Who decides what is right?
 
j-mac said:
I think we all can agree that implementing broad tax hikes in a recession is a bad idea. So do you think that instead of plunging head long into an expensive program that is going to cost great amounts of money should be done right, instead of fast?


j-mac
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I see no evidence taxes matters one way or another. I think if you look, you'll fine we've had hard times with high taxes and without, and we've seen good time with high taxes and without. Taxes are far less a problem than other factors.
 
Boo Radley said:
I see no evidence taxes matters one way or another. I think if you look, you'll fine we've had hard times with high taxes and without, and we've seen good time with high taxes and without. Taxes are far less a problem than other factors.
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Like I said before, you are more than free to send in your surplus money to the government. So you do that?

I on the other hand, like to keep, and spend the money I work for thank you.


j-mac
 
j-mac said:
Like I said before, you are more than free to send in your surplus money to the government. So you do that?

I on the other hand, like to keep, and spend the money I work for thank you.


j-mac
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I pay my taxes and vote for those people who spend it the way I think appropriate. You should do the same. ;)
 
Boo Radley said:
Only to a point, and few do. If you can't speak, and no one has access to your wishes, which is common in emergency situations outside the hospital, you get treated. Thousands get spent before anyone is aware.
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In that case you're not talking about heart transplants. The average bill for those types of situations is only 30-40 thousand at most. I could pay that off easily in my lifetime. Tons of other people could also. IF they are willing to man up and take responsibility.

Boo Radley said:
Maybe. But I doubt it, but know most could not.
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Then they and I would more than likely die. No one has a right to others services.

You see the major problem here isn't that people can't pay. Because they can for most of your normal emergency visits. The problem here is that we have created a society that does not take responsibility for their bills. We have allowed this by allowing them to take advantage of a system that was designed to help those that actually need it. Welfare and bankruptcy laws for the most part. I doubt anyone really minds paying for those that actually need help. But we are also paying for those that can help themselves but don't. Close off that ability and you will find that people will start paying themselves instead of relying on you to do it. Which means that the costs incured for people not paying will drop.

This is of course just part of the problem.

The other part is how health insurance is regulated. Most states will not allow you to buy health insurance across state lines. This allows those that are corrupt to chase away any competition and then increase the rates. This is evidenced by car insurance. It cost me $920 to get full coverage car insurance for a year. It would cost me over $2000 for health insurance for just 6 months. You can buy car insurance across statelines. You cannot for health insurance. It is because of the monopoly that insurance companies have in individual states that allows them to charge so much. What the government should do is allow competition..if necessary split up those companies that have a monopoly. This would make health insurance more affordable for everyone.

The next part of the problem is law suits.

There are too many lawyers that are doing nothing but filing frivilous lawsuits against both hospitals AND the doctors. Even if a lawsuit is not successfull it still costs the hospital and doctor's money. What they need to do is give hospitals and doctors some kind of protection from frivilous lawsuits. I saw nothing in regards to this in that HCB. Have you?

All of the above can lower health care costs and health insurance and it can do it without mandating health insurance.

You've based your whole premise on a "what if" scenario. Totally ignoring that by mandating insurance you trample on other peoples rights to not pay for something that they do not want. Also totally ignoring that the "what if" scenario" that you talk about has an opposite side to it.
 
Kal'Stang said:
In that case you're not talking about heart transplants. The average bill for those types of situations is only 30-40 thousand at most. I could pay that off easily in my lifetime. Tons of other people could also. IF they are willing to man up and take responsibility.
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Of course there is more than just heart transplants. That was just one example, and only of cost.

But many really could afford the cost of emergency treatment which could also get quite expensive, depending on what was needed.


Then they and I would more than likely die. No one has a right to others services.

You see the major problem here isn't that people can't pay. Because they can for most of your normal emergency visits. The problem here is that we have created a society that does not take responsibility for their bills. We have allowed this by allowing them to take advantage of a system that was designed to help those that actually need it. Welfare and bankruptcy laws for the most part. I doubt anyone really minds paying for those that actually need help. But we are also paying for those that can help themselves but don't. Close off that ability and you will find that people will start paying themselves instead of relying on you to do it. Which means that the costs incured for people not paying will drop.

This is of course just part of the problem.

The other part is how health insurance is regulated. Most states will not allow you to buy health insurance across state lines. This allows those that are corrupt to chase away any competition and then increase the rates. This is evidenced by car insurance. It cost me $920 to get full coverage car insurance for a year. It would cost me over $2000 for health insurance for just 6 months. You can buy car insurance across statelines. You cannot for health insurance. It is because of the monopoly that insurance companies have in individual states that allows them to charge so much. What the government should do is allow competition..if necessary split up those companies that have a monopoly. This would make health insurance more affordable for everyone.

The next part of the problem is law suits.

There are too many lawyers that are doing nothing but filing frivilous lawsuits against both hospitals AND the doctors. Even if a lawsuit is not successfull it still costs the hospital and doctor's money. What they need to do is give hospitals and doctors some kind of protection from frivilous lawsuits. I saw nothing in regards to this in that HCB. Have you?

All of the above can lower health care costs and health insurance and it can do it without mandating health insurance.

You've based your whole premise on a "what if" scenario. Totally ignoring that by mandating insurance you trample on other peoples rights to not pay for something that they do not want. Also totally ignoring that the "what if" scenario" that you talk about has an opposite side to it.
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Tort reform has been addressed in more than a few states with no effect on costs. You can check that out.

And while I'm not opposed to interstate purchasing of insurance, I doubt it would solve any more problems than tort reform.

As for cost, I beg to differ. Most really can't add thousands of dollars to their monthly budget, especially since they are likely to need services agains before they get things paid off. It isn't like much of this is one time and you get the rest of your life to pay. It's on going and something that would build if tackled the way your propose.
 
Boo Radley said:
Of course there is more than just heart transplants. That was just one example, and only of cost.
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Yes, you chose THE most expensive procedure out there while trying to talk about everyday average medical needs.

Boo Radley said:
But many really could afford the cost of emergency treatment which could also get quite expensive, depending on what was needed.
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Did you mean "could NOT afford the cost"?


Boo Radley said:
Tort reform has been addressed in more than a few states with no effect on costs. You can check that out.
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Single states are not going to solve the problem. This is what the federal government is for.

Boo Radley said:
And while I'm not opposed to interstate purchasing of insurance, I doubt it would solve any more problems than tort reform.
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Why not? We already have evidence that it will keep the cost of insurance down through car insurance costs.

Boo Radley said:
As for cost, I beg to differ. Most really can't add thousands of dollars to their monthly budget, especially since they are likely to need services agains before they get things paid off. It isn't like much of this is one time and you get the rest of your life to pay. It's on going and something that would build if tackled the way your propose.
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Thats what they say. But in reality people CAN pay for it if they are willing to give up a few luxuries and actually work. Like TV, cell phone, computers etc etc. I can't count how many people that I have known that was on every assistance program possible and yet they were at home eating chips and drinking soda and letting their kids wear the crappiest of clothes. All the while never realizing that they could get out and get a job. On the other hand I can count on one hand some people that worked 2-3 jobs in order to not just pay the bills but also get all those luxuries.
 
Dirty Harry said:
OK. I understand. You do believe it's OK for some to leech off others.
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If that's what you take from my explanation, then you don't
I really don't want government interference either but the private sector has shown they can not do the job.
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Wrong, the private sector is doing the best it can with the mess that is health overregulation. This is the government's mess, not the private sectors.
 
Kal'Stang said:
Yes, you chose THE most expensive procedure out there while trying to talk about everyday average medical needs.



Did you mean "could NOT afford the cost"?




Single states are not going to solve the problem. This is what the federal government is for.



Why not? We already have evidence that it will keep the cost of insurance down through car insurance costs.



Thats what they say. But in reality people CAN pay for it if they are willing to give up a few luxuries and actually work. Like TV, cell phone, computers etc etc. I can't count how many people that I have known that was on every assistance program possible and yet they were at home eating chips and drinking soda and letting their kids wear the crappiest of clothes. All the while never realizing that they could get out and get a job. On the other hand I can count on one hand some people that worked 2-3 jobs in order to not just pay the bills but also get all those luxuries.
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Yes, I meant could not afford.

So, what makes federal government special? Why can't states solve the problem? This is a new proposition than I usually hear from conservatives. Tort reform, and what it means, has been done by states. I see nothing the feds can do that would be different, so this interests me.

Is your auto insurance cost low? I hope this isn't your evidence. ;)

And no, I know a little bit about living, people really can't afford much of this. Remember before insurance? People paid with fruits and vegetables. Don't know a health care provider who'll go back to that. You think what you like, but like I said, it isn't one cost and then nothing. Health care is on going. Few can actually afford it.
 
Boo Radley said:
Yes, I meant could not afford.
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I've shown how they could afford it. Work more jobs and get rid of luxuries.

Boo Radley said:
So, what makes federal government special? Why can't states solve the problem? This is a new proposition than I usually hear from conservatives. Tort reform, and what it means, has been done by states. I see nothing the feds can do that would be different, so this interests me.
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The difference between individual states doing it and the federal government is that when it's done by the states it only applies to that state. No other state has to recognize it. In order to sue a company you must sue their home base...not just the branch which you live next to. This is when conflicting state laws can interfere. (I know it doesn't sound right but that is still the case of what actually happens) If the federal government does it then it applies across ALL states. There are no conflicting laws.

Boo Radley said:
Is your auto insurance cost low? I hope this isn't your evidence. ;)
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$920 full coverage for 1 year. What's your health insurance cost you for 1 year?

Boo Radley said:
And no, I know a little bit about living, people really can't afford much of this. Remember before insurance? People paid with fruits and vegetables. Don't know a health care provider who'll go back to that. You think what you like, but like I said, it isn't one cost and then nothing. Health care is on going. Few can actually afford it.
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*looks around my house and at my bills* I think that I know a little bit about living also. I've paid every medical bill that I have ever had and was responsible for (IE since I was 18). With no outside help. While sure I've never been in an accident or seriously sick I have no doubt that I could still pay for any average emergency medical care that I needed.
 
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