Senate OKs health care measure, reaching milestone

Kal'Stang · Dec 26, 2009

Boo Radley said:
Like with car insurance, when it effects someone else. We all pay for the irresponsible in health care.

Then why isn't car insurance mandated for everyone? After all not everyone drives but may still ride in a car.

Boo Radley said:
I tell you, there are more expensive things out there than that. A lot more. Things you cannot pay for that way and actually get it paid.

The only things like that would have to cost over a million dollars. Know anything like that? Besides if you happen to die before the bill is paid off then that is what life insurance is for. Why isn't that mandated? Baring not having that then the bills go to your spouse/children. I have no problem with paying for my parents left over bills after they die. After all they spent money on me for 18 years, never asking for anything in return beyond my love.

Boo Radley said:
Yes, it helps the insurance companies. But it helps Joe blow as well. He doesn't have to pay for those who abuse the system. Instead, he takes responsibility and plans for what could happen. And while it is possible to pay more than you will receive, it is just as possible to receive more than you'll ever pay. The point and the responsible thing is to be prepared.

Then close up the holes that allow the others to abuse the system. That is what personal repsonsibility is about. And the responsible thing to do is pay your own bills.

Boo Radley · Dec 27, 2009

Kal'Stang said:
Then why isn't car insurance mandated for everyone? After all not everyone drives but may still ride in a car.

It is if you want to drive. And you can choose not to drive. Can you choose not have care provided if your injured or seriously ill? Would many?

The only things like that would have to cost over a million dollars. Know anything like that? Besides if you happen to die before the bill is paid off then that is what life insurance is for. Why isn't that mandated? Baring not having that then the bills go to your spouse/children. I have no problem with paying for my parents left over bills after they die. After all they spent money on me for 18 years, never asking for anything in return beyond my love. [/QUOTE

I suspect this would be too much:

According to Transplant Living, the average total cost of a single heart transplant in 2007 was $658,800. This figure includes the cost of obtaining a donor heart, at an average of nearly $90,000, about $23,000 in evaluation fees, $40,000 for doctor's fees, $383,000 in hospital costs, $93,000 in post-operative care, and over $29,000 for immunosuppressive prescription medications. Transplants that involved both a heart and a lung cost an average of $874,800, while heart and kidney combination transplants cost an average of $758,700.

How Much Does a Heart Transplant Cost? | eHow.com

However, I suspect 40 to 50 thousand dollars would require much more than most can pay. This would be a few hundred a month. And you can run into the hundreds of thousands of dollars with many treatments and care plans. YOu could be running a thousand a month before you know it.

Then close up the holes that allow the others to abuse the system. That is what personal repsonsibility is about. And the responsible thing to do is pay your own bills.

LaMidRighter · Dec 27, 2009

hazlnut said:
When being irresponsible costs the rest of us tax dollars. (Hint: Driving without insurance would be a better analogy.)

Okay dude, you are so misinformed it isn't funny. Here is the deal, health insurance costs us because of government interference.
That you don't get the fact that healthcare is the single MOST REGULATED industry historically in the U.S. is YOUR fault. Your idea of how to fix the government created problem is to give them more control of what they ****ed up in the first place. Do you need me to spell out how illogical that is or do you finally get it? You do NOT know one damn thing about this industry, else, you wouldn't post the crap you do.

Question:

Who are these people that can afford health insurance but will refuse to buy it. You? Why do they refuse?

K, let me say, as a Life/Health AGENT, I have run across people who.....as a couple......make less then 50/k/yr and owe 60k/yr in debt, they have chosen(mid 20's) to not buy health insurance because they are healthy, is it a good idea....no, but it is THEIR choice, not YOURS, or NANCY PELOSI'S(may she rot in hell), you are assuming that the very government interference upping your costs is somehow benevolent, far be it from me to shape your opinion, but, you feel like healthcare is a right, fine, but don't bitch when you have to pay for someone else's ride because of the very policies YOU support, finally, we ALL pay because of mandates by YOUR party, so please, either pick a battle or STFU.

ScottD · Dec 27, 2009

LaMidRighter said:
K, let me say, as a Life/Health AGENT, I have run across people who.....as a couple......make less then 50/k/yr and owe 60k/yr in debt, they have chosen(mid 20's) to not buy health insurance because they are healthy, is it a good idea....no, but it is THEIR choice, not YOURS, or NANCY PELOSI'S(may she rot in hell), you are assuming that the very government interference upping your costs is somehow benevolent, far be it from me to shape your opinion, but, you feel like healthcare is a right, fine, but don't bitch when you have to pay for someone else's ride because of the very policies YOU support, finally, we ALL pay because of mandates by YOUR party, so please, either pick a battle or STFU.

He asked for an example of someone who could afford it, and you gave him an example of someone who could not. That family would get vouchers to help them buy insurance. Plus thinking you don't need insurance because you feel healthy is the dumbest thing you can do.

Partisan · Dec 27, 2009

ScottD said:
He asked for an example of someone who could afford it, and you gave him an example of someone who could not. That family would get vouchers to help them buy insurance. Plus thinking you don't need insurance because you feel healthy is the dumbest thing you can do.

Why is that?.....

Denying insurance companies of their rightful profits?.....:mrgreen:
All it does is provide guaranteed revenue for the insurance companies, just like mandatory auto insurance did.......

For young people, it amounts to pre-paid health care, whether they like it or not.....

It is no different than any other tax, s.s., medicare, etc......

Kal'Stang · Dec 27, 2009

Boo Radley said:
It is if you want to drive. And you can choose not to drive. Can you choose not have care provided if your injured or seriously ill? Would many?

Exactly, it is if you want to drive...and you can choose not to drive. Do I have a choice to not be born?

And yes you can choose to not have care provided if you're injured or seriously ill. Anyone can opt out of any medical treatement..even life saving ones.

Would many? I have no idea. I can't speak for anyone else. Why should you?

As for your heart transplant if I had to have it today, yes I would have it. Because it could still be paid off with in my life time. By me. Yes I would have to work harder. But I'm quite willing to take on that extra responsibility and do what must be done to get that bill paid off.

Now if I had to have that operation 5-10 years from now no I would not take that option. I would let myself die because I know that I would not have enough time to raise the money and that the life insurance that I would have would not beable to cover it.

Kal'Stang · Dec 27, 2009

ScottD said:
He asked for an example of someone who could afford it, and you gave him an example of someone who could not. That family would get vouchers to help them buy insurance.

Not everyone that can't afford it will get vouchers. Those vouchers will no doubt be like any other government run welfare program, based on what your gross income is. What a persons gross income is does not reflect on what they can/can't afford. People live off of net incomes. Not gross incomes.

hazlnut · Dec 27, 2009

LaMidRighter said:
Okay dude, you are so misinformed it isn't funny. Here is the deal, health insurance costs us because of government interference.
That you don't get the fact that healthcare is the single MOST REGULATED industry historically in the U.S. is YOUR fault. Your idea of how to fix the government created problem is to give them more control of what they ****ed up in the first place. Do you need me to spell out how illogical that is or do you finally get it? You do NOT know one damn thing about this industry, else, you wouldn't post the crap you do.

Yes, of course, an insurance salesman... Your credibility is somewhat laughable in this thread. Health, medicine, you're dealing with people's lives, when they at their most vulnerable. God forbid Government actually protect the consumer.

Health Insurance = The middlemen who inserted themselves between patient and doctor. They drove up the costs. Doctors had to double their office staff to deal with them. You can no longer just go to a specialist without going to your Primary Care physician first. For the uninsured, this is a public hospital emergency room.

Health Insurance is a twisted business model--sign up as many people as possible and give them as little coverage as possible. The major health insurence companies incentivize their employees to deny claims. Cadillac Plans incentivize bad behavior by doctors.

My friend, I'm very well informed on the billion-dollar U.S. Health insurance industry that gets away with murder, literally.

K, let me say, as a Life/Health AGENT, I have run across people who.....as a couple......make less then 50/k/yr and owe 60k/yr in debt, they have chosen(mid 20's) to not buy health insurance because they are healthy, is it a good idea....no, but it is THEIR choice, not YOURS, or NANCY PELOSI'S(may she rot in hell), you are assuming that the very government interference upping your costs is somehow benevolent, far be it from me to shape your opinion, but, you feel like healthcare is a right, fine, but don't bitch when you have to pay for someone else's ride because of the very policies YOU support, finally, we ALL pay because of mandates by YOUR party, so please, either pick a battle or STFU.

As an "expert", it must be embarrassing to talk out of your ass. Who foots the bill when this couple is crippled in a car wreck?

Paying for someone else's ride?? We're already doing that when your "brave" couple gets sick and goes to the emergency room without insurance.

Tell your dopey clients to be more responsible with their money.

Yes, being moral and responsible, doing the right thing costs money.

American · Dec 27, 2009

justabubba said:
let the whining begin

the republicans bet the house (and the senate) that they could defeat this bill and thereby undermine the administration of a strong, internationally respected president for whom they have no viable opposition in 2012

the bill passed. they whine

if the bill had included public option, they would have whined

if the bill had included medicare buy in they would have whined

if the bill would have included a trigger for the states they would have whined

if the bill had expanded coverage to include all Americans they would have whined

if the bill had been a single payer plan like those used by the other major industrialized nations they would have whined

the republicans offered no cooperation in trying to fashion a bill that would have been beneficial for Americans; the republicans were more interested in using this issue as a partisan political wedge. they lost. and now they will whine. and so will their adherents, as we will soon see in this thread

here is something to go with the whine. merry kwanzaa

I'll bet you wish you were really independent, instead of performing hackery here. Liberals can't control their liberalism, that's why no matter the title they chose, we see right through it. All your bullets are BS, and have nothing to do with Republicans.

Boo Radley · Dec 27, 2009

Kal'Stang said:
Exactly, it is if you want to drive...and you can choose not to drive. Do I have a choice to not be born?

And yes you can choose to not have care provided if you're injured or seriously ill. Anyone can opt out of any medical treatement..even life saving ones.

Would many? I have no idea. I can't speak for anyone else. Why should you?

As for your heart transplant if I had to have it today, yes I would have it. Because it could still be paid off with in my life time. By me. Yes I would have to work harder. But I'm quite willing to take on that extra responsibility and do what must be done to get that bill paid off.

Now if I had to have that operation 5-10 years from now no I would not take that option. I would let myself die because I know that I would not have enough time to raise the money and that the life insurance that I would have would not beable to cover it.

But that is the difference, which is why all are required to have health insurance. There's no way to choose not to be cared for or for us to turn anyone away from serious care. It isn't a reason, as you suggest, to not have it mandatory, but a reason why it has to include all.

And unless you're very, very rich, you could not pay for a transplant in your life time. Not only that, they wouldn't do it until you came up with a huge part of the cost. And that is true even if you're very young.

You overestimate your actual ability to pay.

j-mac · Dec 27, 2009

Just an observation, Auto insurance is a State mandate in most if not all states. Not a federal issue.

j-mac

Boo Radley · Dec 27, 2009

j-mac said:
Just an observation, Auto insurance is a State mandate in most if not all states. Not a federal issue.

j-mac

That's true, but the concept is the same. You're still letting the government, state government, mandate the purchase of an insurance.

j-mac · Dec 27, 2009

Boo Radley said:
That's true, but the concept is the same. You're still letting the government, state government, mandate the purchase of an insurance.

No sir. The State doesn't tell me which policies I must buy, only that I be covered if I plan on driving a vehicle I own. Also, I am not limited to those insurance companies located within my own state either, I can buy from anyone in the country. That is what contains cost. no?

j-mac

Boo Radley · Dec 27, 2009

j-mac said:
No sir. The State doesn't tell me which policies I must buy, only that I be covered if I plan on driving a vehicle I own. Also, I am not limited to those insurance companies located within my own state either, I can buy from anyone in the country. That is what contains cost. no?

j-mac

It does tell you if you want to drive. The only difference is that with auto insurance you can choose not to drive and fix the problem. You cannot choose not to need health care. You get in an accident, and are hurt seriously, you will be treated. If you are uninsured, we will pay for you. However, the premise is the same.

Interstate buying is another issue, but I have read some things that say opening it would likely raise cost and not lower them. It might be interesting to find out.

j-mac · Dec 27, 2009

Boo Radley said:
It does tell you if you want to drive.

Um, no it doesn't....Please show me where a State, any State, tells me what insurance I must have if I want to drive in that State.

The only difference is that with auto insurance you can choose not to drive and fix the problem. You cannot choose not to need health care. You get in an accident, and are hurt seriously, you will be treated. If you are uninsured, we will pay for you. However, the premise is the same.

No it's not, not even close to the same. In one case you have a heavy handed federal government telling you what you must buy or face consequences of jail time, on the other you have an elective privilege that is only dictated by State minimums of coverage that you can purchase from anyone.

Interstate buying is another issue, but I have read some things that say opening it would likely raise cost and not lower them. It might be interesting to find out.

Yes, because more choice always drives up costs right? :roll:

j-mac

Telecaster · Dec 27, 2009

Dirty Harry said:
You don't get it. Buying health insurance is taking responsiblity. Leeching off the rest of us isn't. There should be consequences for letting the rest of us pay for your healthcare.
It amazes me that so called conservatives think it's OK to go without insurance and let others pay for it. Time to make deadbeats get insurance or pay their own way.

Exactly! If I refuse a plan then simply allow me to quickly die off. I can just use what funding I have on pain killers. It's my call and I should live and die with the consequences.

However, you do realize that at some point if you become terminal, even your beloved Obamacare will not afford you every possible service to remain alive. Somewhere along the line you will leech off of the taxpayers (sooner than you think), fork out more out-of-pocket pursuing service Obamacare will not provide, or join me on the deathbed.

In fact, all three options will be the exact full scenario for most people who suffer terminal illness.

Boo Radley · Dec 27, 2009

j-mac said:
Um, no it doesn't....Please show me where a State, any State, tells me what insurance I must have if I want to drive in that State.

It tells you that you must have auto insurance if you want to drive. No one is telling what health insurance to buy. Both require a minimum.

No it's not, not even close to the same. In one case you have a heavy handed federal government telling you what you must buy or face consequences of jail time, on the other you have an elective privilege that is only dictated by State minimums of coverage that you can purchase from anyone.

No, the consequence of not having insurance is a 2.5% tax. Same with health insurance.

Yes, because more choice always drives up costs right? :roll:

j-mac

More the reasons for the differences in cost don't go away.

j-mac · Dec 27, 2009

Boo Radley said:
It tells you that you must have auto insurance if you want to drive. No one is telling what health insurance to buy. Both require a minimum.

Sure they are. Can I buy Insurance that is not offered in my state? Because I can with Auto insurance.

No, the consequence of not having insurance is a 2.5% tax. Same with health insurance.

that is IF I choose to drive. I can't opt out of Obamacare.

More the reasons for the differences in cost don't go away.

then why was the mantra of the public option crowd to hammer "competition", and "choice"?

j-mac

Boo Radley · Dec 27, 2009

j-mac said:
Sure they are. Can I buy Insurance that is not offered in my state? Because I can with Auto insurance.

That doesn't equal no choice.

that is IF I choose to drive. I can't opt out of Obamacare.

Right, and I've explained the difference. You have to address that explanation to move forward.

then why was the mantra of the public option crowd to hammer "competition", and "choice"?

j-mac

Because it offers real competition and choice.

Dirty Harry · Dec 27, 2009

j-mac said:
Sure they are. Can I buy Insurance that is not offered in my state? Because I can with Auto insurance.

My health insurance is from a company in another state.

Dirty Harry · Dec 27, 2009

j-mac said:
that is IF I choose to drive. I can't opt out of Obamacare.

j-mac

Do you know the difference between living and driving?

j-mac · Dec 27, 2009

Dirty Harry said:
Do you know the difference between living and driving?

You know the difference between liberty, and tyranny?

j-mac

Boo Radley · Dec 27, 2009

j-mac said:
You know the difference between liberty, and tyranny?

j-mac

Do you?

j-mac · Dec 27, 2009

Boo Radley said:
Do you?

I believe so.

j-mac

Dirty Harry · Dec 27, 2009

j-mac said:
You know the difference between liberty, and tyranny?

j-mac

Sure do. I also don't think I should have to pay for the healthcare of others just because they don't want to buy health insurance.

Senate OKs health care measure, reaching milestone

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