Senate OKs health care measure, reaching milestone

Boo Radley · Dec 24, 2009

Harry Guerrilla said:
Well as long as there is a fine for not having insurance then you can go to jail for not paying the fine for not having insurance.

That's for not paying your taxes, a different thing altogether.

Dirty Harry · Dec 24, 2009

Harry Guerrilla said:
Well as long as there is a fine for not having insurance then you can go to jail for not paying the fine for not having insurance.

It's a tax. Just like any tax you can go to jail for not paying it.

Harry Guerrilla · Dec 24, 2009

Boo Radley said:
That's for not paying your taxes, a different thing altogether.

Dirty Harry said:
It's a tax. Just like any tax you can go to jail for not paying it.

It's a fine not a tax, taxes are reoccurring and fines are based on instances of non compliance, like speeding or in this instance not purchasing health insurance.

If you don't pay the fine because you didn't buy the insurance then you can go to jail.

Dirty Harry · Dec 24, 2009

Harry Guerrilla said:
It's a fine not a tax, taxes are reoccurring and fines are based on instances of non compliance, like speeding or in this instance not purchasing health insurance.

If you don't pay the fine because you didn't buy the insurance then you can go to jail.

It is re-occurring and it is a tax. Every year you don't get insurance you pay the tax. If you don't pay the tax you face the fines and jail time.

The Prof · Dec 24, 2009

handwritten letter from thomas barthold, chief of staff for joint tax cmte, saying there are fines and potential jail time for those who refuse to play

http://a.abcnews.go.com/images/Politics/Barthold_letter.pdf

Buy Insurance or Go to Jail? - The Note

asked last month about jail time for nonconformists, ms pelosi said she thought such a punishment was "very fair"

RealClearPolitics - Video - Pelosi On Jail Time For No Health Care: "The Legislation Is Very Fair In This Respect"

more from the jtc:

“H.R. 3962 provides that an individual (or a husband and wife in the case of a joint return) who does not, at any time during the taxable year, maintain acceptable health insurance coverage for himself or herself and each of his or her qualifying children is subject to an additional tax.” [page 1]

- – - – - – - – - -

“If the government determines that the taxpayer’s unpaid tax liability results from willful behavior, the following penalties could apply…” [page 2]

- – - – - – - – - -

“Criminal penalties

Prosecution is authorized under the Code for a variety of offenses. Depending on the level of the noncompliance, the following penalties could apply to an individual:

• Section 7203 – misdemeanor willful failure to pay is punishable by a fine of up to $25,000 and/or imprisonment of up to one year.

• Section 7201 – felony willful evasion is punishable by a fine of up to $250,000 and/or imprisonment of up to five years.” [page 3]

Big Government Blog Archive Committee Confirms: Comply With Pelosi-Care Or Go To Jail

president obama, inteviewed by abc in november, when asked about jail time explained his broad belief that "penalties are appropriate"

pressed by abc's sunlen miller to focus on prison time, he diffidently waved it off as not "the biggest question" he's facing right now

he is, after all, we all know, very busy

and HE HAS health care

threats of jail time not really one of his priorities, he says

what an unbelievably thoughtless statement

Interview with the President: Jail Time for Those without Health Care Insurance? - Political Punch

Harry Guerrilla · Dec 24, 2009

Dirty Harry said:
It is re-occurring and it is a tax. Every year you don't get insurance you pay the tax. If you don't pay the tax you face the fines and jail time.

fine - Definition from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary

3 a : a sum imposed as punishment for an offense b : a forfeiture or penalty paid to an injured party in a civil action

Even the language in the bill calls it a fine, what is it with people and reading comprehension.

And why would be fined for this hmmmm?

Because you don't have insurance, if anything your arguing over semantics and not reality as there is no threat of fines or imprisonment until they made it illegal to not have insurance.

Boo Radley · Dec 24, 2009

Harry Guerrilla said:
It's a fine not a tax, taxes are reoccurring and fines are based on instances of non compliance, like speeding or in this instance not purchasing health insurance.

If you don't pay the fine because you didn't buy the insurance then you can go to jail.

The fine is paid in a tax. Read it.

What? The House bill would require people to either buy insurance, or face a special 2.5 percent income tax. People who don't buy insurance AND refuse to pay the tax would face the standard punishment for knowingly evading taxes, which is listed in the Internal Revenue Code. By that logic, any change to the tax code could lead to criminal penalties.

Boo Radley · Dec 24, 2009

The Prof said:
handwritten letter from thomas barthold, chief of staff for joint tax cmte, saying there are fines and potential jail time for those who refuse to play

http://a.abcnews.go.com/images/Politics/Barthold_letter.pdf

Buy Insurance or Go to Jail? - The Note

asked last month about jail time for nonconformists, ms pelosi said she thought such a punishment was "very fair"

RealClearPolitics - Video - Pelosi On Jail Time For No Health Care: "The Legislation Is Very Fair In This Respect"

more from the jtc:

Big Government Blog Archive Committee Confirms: Comply With Pelosi-Care Or Go To Jail

president obama, inteviewed by abc in november, when asked about jail time explained his broad belief that "penalties are appropriate"

pressed by abc's sunlen miller to focus on prison time, he diffidently waved it off as not "the biggest question" he's facing right now

he is, after all, we all know, very busy

and HE HAS health care

threats of jail time not really one of his priorities, he says

what an unbelievably thoughtless statement

Interview with the President: Jail Time for Those without Health Care Insurance? - Political Punch

from your link:

In a handwritten letter, Barthold told Ensign that under an existing provision of the Internal Revenue Code, willful failure to pay a fine can result in being charged with a misdemeanor which could carry a penalty of up to $25,000, or up to a year in jail, or both. The handwritten letter was a follow-up to an answer that Barthold gave Ensign during Thursday's mark-up of the Baucus bill.

Internal revenue, fine on not paying a tax. This is existing law. Not the penalty for not having insurance, but for not paying the tax.

Harry Guerrilla · Dec 24, 2009

Boo Radley said:
The fine is paid in a tax. Read it.

What? The House bill would require people to either buy insurance, or face a special 2.5 percent income tax. People who don't buy insurance AND refuse to pay the tax would face the standard punishment for knowingly evading taxes, which is listed in the Internal Revenue Code. By that logic, any change to the tax code could lead to criminal penalties.

If the tax/fine is solely based on the fact that your not buying insurance then it true that you can go to jail if you don't buy insurance.

It's not sensationalist its a logical conclusion.

The Prof · Dec 24, 2009

Boo Radley said:
from your link:

Internal revenue, fine on not paying a tax. This is existing law. Not the penalty for not having insurance, but for not paying the tax.

tell it to pelosi and obama

call it what you will, it's a road that starts with a mandate to buy a product and ends in jail if you don't

good luck selling that to the once enthusiastic but famously flighty youth vote

The Prof · Dec 24, 2009

the most effective (indeed, the only attempted) defense of THIS BILL on this thread:

republicans are just as bad

reid's bill is evidently indefensible

Boo Radley · Dec 24, 2009

The Prof said:
tell it to pelosi and obama

call it what you will, it's a road that starts with a mandate to buy a product and ends in jail if you don't

good luck selling that to the once enthusiastic but famously flighty youth vote

I don't have to tell it to anyone. More likely the quotes you have are out of context, or maybe even misleading on their part. What matters are the facts. The fact is the penalty is a 2.5% tax. You have to not pay your tax, or the fine associated with the tax in order to go to jail. You don't go to jail for not having insurance.

Boo Radley · Dec 24, 2009

Harry Guerrilla said:
If the tax/fine is solely based on the fact that your not buying insurance then it true that you can go to jail if you don't buy insurance.

It's not sensationalist its a logical conclusion.

No, it isn't. It's true that any tax or fine you don't pay could land you in jail. They wouldn't be going to jail for not having insurance.

The Prof · Dec 24, 2009

Boo Radley said:
The fact is the penalty is a 2.5% tax. You have to not pay your tax, or the fine associated with the tax in order to go to jail.

out of context?

LOL!

Harry Guerrilla · Dec 24, 2009

Boo Radley said:
No, it isn't. It's true that any tax or fine you don't pay could land you in jail. They wouldn't be going to jail for not having insurance.

The fine is totally based on the fact that you didn't buy insurance.

Taxes are general payments to the government for non competitive goods and services.

lets make this totally clear,

Fines = punishment for specific things.

Taxes = reoccuring payments for general government goods and services.

Boo Radley · Dec 24, 2009

Harry Guerrilla said:
The fine is totally based on the fact that you didn't buy insurance.

Taxes are general payments to the government for non competitive goods and services.

lets make this totally clear,

Fines = punishment for specific things.

Taxes = reoccuring payments for general government goods and services.

The tax is; the jail time is not. The jail time is for not paying the tax, and/or the fine attached to that (you get fined first if you don't pay your tax).

Harry Guerrilla · Dec 24, 2009

Boo Radley said:
The tax is; the jail time is not. The jail time is for not paying the tax, and/or the fine attached to that (you get fined first if you don't pay your tax).

So who has the moral authority to impose a fine on a person who does not have insurance?

Can you justify sending someone to jail for not paying that fine?

apdst · Dec 24, 2009

Boo Radley said:
The fine is paid in a tax. Read it.

What? The House bill would require people to either buy insurance, or face a special 2.5 percent income tax. People who don't buy insurance AND refuse to pay the tax would face the standard punishment for knowingly evading taxes, which is listed in the Internal Revenue Code. By that logic, any change to the tax code could lead to criminal penalties.

Let's do some simple math here. On 50 g's, you would have to pay in $1,250. You got that kinda money just laying around in this economy?

Boo Radley · Dec 24, 2009

apdst said:
Let's do some simple math here. On 50 g's, you would have to pay in $1,250. You got that kinda money just laying around in this economy?

Well, yeah.

Boo Radley · Dec 24, 2009

Harry Guerrilla said:
So who has the moral authority to impose a fine on a person who does not have insurance?

Can you justify sending someone to jail for not paying that fine?

The same people who fined me $600 for not having auto insurance a few years ago.

And they are being sent to jail for not having health insurance. Be accurate please.

Harry Guerrilla · Dec 24, 2009

Boo Radley said:
The same people who fined me $600 for not having auto insurance a few years ago.

And they are being sent to jail for not having health insurance. Be accurate please.

Auto insurance does not serve the same purpose as health insurance does.

You can draw comparisons for the two but not in this instance because auto insurance not only covers you but the other person you may run into causing injuries and damage.

Do you believe that the medical care bill that was passed was good?

Kal'Stang · Dec 24, 2009

Boo Radley said:
from your link:

Internal revenue, fine on not paying a tax. This is existing law. Not the penalty for not having insurance, but for not paying the tax.

In this case the two are linked. If you had not been "taxed"/fined then you would not have had to pay it. Being as you are being "taxed"/fined you do have to pay it. Or go to jail. The begining is just as relevent as the end. One leads to another. Trying to seperate the two is disingenous.

hazlnut · Dec 24, 2009

Harry Guerrilla said:
So who has the moral authority to impose a fine on a person who does not have insurance?

Can you justify sending someone to jail for not paying that fine?

Who are we talking about here? If they can't afford it, there are exemptions.

How many people are we talking about that can afford health insurance but refuse to buy it? Jerry Sienfeld -- Who are these people?

And only a moron would believe someone is going to end up in jail over this. However, if they are really that stupid and selfish, then perhaps jail would do them some good...

Boo Radley · Dec 24, 2009

Harry Guerrilla said:
Auto insurance does not serve the same purpose as health insurance does.

You can draw comparisons for the two but not in this instance because auto insurance not only covers you but the other person you may run into causing injuries and damage.

Do you believe that the medical care bill that was passed was good?

Yes, and having health insurance limits what others will have to pay for you when you mess up and need it. if you don't have it, others will have to pay for you. Health care isn't free.

As for what passed, I believe it doesn't do enough. We needed a good public option for this to have any chance at real success. Because of the silliness this topic always elicit, this may be the best we can get for now. It will fail, and more will be needed. But a journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.

Boo Radley · Dec 24, 2009

Kal'Stang said:
In this case the two are linked. If you had not been "taxed"/fined then you would not have had to pay it. Being as you are being "taxed"/fined you do have to pay it. Or go to jail. The begining is just as relevent as the end. One leads to another. Trying to seperate the two is disingenous.

Same with all taxes and fines. But the offense one would go to jail for is not paying the tax/fine. Not for not having insurance. There is no jail penalty for not having insurance. You have to commit another offense in order to go to jail.

And no, separating things that are separate is being factual.