AP POLL: Tax the rich to pay for health bill

This whole argument is DOA, there will be no health care reform, we are going to be lucky if we can avoid a total collapse of the dollar.

The poor get food, housing, etc, this is enough, more then enough.

Jackboot said:

This whole argument is DOA, there will be no health care reform, we are going to be lucky if we can avoid a total collapse of the dollar.

The poor get food, housing, etc, this is enough, more then enough.

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They also get free cell phones with 70 free minutes a months in some areas. :shock:

Our new leaders just put the kabash on this health care plan, the chinese have told us this is too expensive, expect the politicians to all fall in line.

Indeed. It is also easier to lose money. It is a risk to invest. This is a desirable activity that we want to encourage as it creates jobs.

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Doesn't really matter whose hands the money is in. The winner will be compelled one way or another to step into the loser's place in the network, or gradually lose his capital to those who are, and will start performing the same set of power-mongering actions as his predecessors. As far as their social functions go, people can usually be substituted for somebody else without the overall processes society is engaging in changing much. So long as the wealth is concentrated somewhere, it is working some mischief in the media or planning on extorting some special privilege from the government or law. Besides, you can usually count on large sums of money being concentrated in certain agencies for at least several generations. Generally speaking, there is a trend where people who get into wealth can have their families look forward to it for awhile. I don't really care who is getting charged more, provided they had more at the time.

Yes, it's true. Because they own assets. What this has to do with your claim that a progressive tax is equitable, I have no idea. Make your case.

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Its not. Short of divinely engineered policy, which is unlikely, tax systems can't be equitable. In the case of a truly fair progressive income tax system, it would be too hard to keep re-calculating the variables year by year while still providing money for the government's established expenses, which nearly always end up costing an amount different from what the policy stipulates, be it more or less. However, the needs of society as a whole may depend on varying rates on different brackets. You might be able to deny those needs sometimes, but you can't consistently do so and anticipate the survival of your civilization. That's also why it doesn't happen and libertarians get frustrated. Furthermore, though I doubt any existing progressive tax system is equitable, I know a flat tax system is just as inequitable because it does not consider how wealth multiplies exponentially, not proportionally, meaning that when you take away equal rates of money from a middle-class person and a wealthy person, you are hurting the middle-class person's ability to participate fairly in the market far more than the wealthy person's; since it is far harder for a middle-class person to make up for what they lose (in terms of getting more capital and prospering) than the wealthy person (who is far less bothered as far as getting more capital and prospering goes). It wouldn't be fair to charge them evenly for that reason.

On average, investing absolutely creates growth and jobs. There are economic downturns in a capitalist society. But if you look at the relative growth numbers between the US and a Social Democratic country with higher taxes and less investment power, you will find that the US comes out on top.

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That doesn't mean our quality of life or security is higher. It just means we generate more money. The fruits of how that money is spent can easily be poisonous.

apdst said:

All this is designed to appeal to the welfare class.

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That's only part of it. The more significant issue is how do we get people out from a system of unhealthy lifestyles to living healthier while also providing affordable means of health care to all so that we, as a nation and not just groups or classes of people, can all be healthier contributors to society rather than be a drain on it? That's the big picture I see, and health care reform even as flawed as the current House proposal may be goes a long way towards putting this nation on a path towards doing just that.

Where you (meaning one diverse group) see "class warfare" today, I see a good effort to make a healthier, more productive and more cost effective union in the long-term.

Objective Voice said:

That's only part of it. The more significant issue is how do we get people out from a system of unhealthy lifestyles to living healthier while also providing affordable means of health care to all so that we, as a nation and not just groups or classes of people, can all be healthier contributors to society rather than be a drain on it? That's the big picture I see, and health care reform even as flawed as the current House proposal may be goes a long way towards putting this nation on a path towards doing just that.

Where you (meaning one diverse group) see "class warfare" today, I see a good effort to make a healthier, more productive and more cost effective union in the long-term.

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Nonsense, there are plenty of healthy americans in this country, the fat, lazy, addicted, they should die, and we should focus a bright hot light on their demise!

Crunch said:

They also get free cell phones with 70 free minutes a months in some areas. :shock:

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I have a place in Mexico, and if you see the poor there, you will find it very hard to have any sympathy for the so called "poor" in America.

Poor people in America have cars, cell phones, microwave ovens, $500 gaming systems, a couple of TV's, ipods, mp3 players, computers, stereo systems, CD players, their kids wear $150 tennis shoes, and they aren't dying of starvation by any means. Yet it is these same people who complain because they can't pay their electric bill... give me a break.

In Mexico, people live within their means, and don't rely on the government to provide for their families. That's the way it used to be here in the US. When I was a kid, families did everything possible to avoid the shame of having to ask the government for anything. It was a matter of pride. Today, lower income families see government assistance as a lifestyle, rather than a last resort.

.

Jackboot said:

Nonsense, there are plenty of healthy americans in this country, the fat, lazy, addicted, they should die, and we should focus a bright hot light on their demise!

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Ah! Then you're no different than those who suggest "death panels" are part of health care reform, i.e., since fat, lazy, unhealthy Americans should die, may as well knock off old, unemployeed grandma who's draining Medicare and living off SSI. Right?

Think before you speak...

Objective Voice said:

That's only part of it. The more significant issue is how do we get people out from a system of unhealthy lifestyles to living healthier while also providing affordable means of health care to all so that we, as a nation and not just groups or classes of people, can all be healthier contributors to society rather than be a drain on it?

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Ahhhhhhhhh...... the truth comes out....

Jackboot said:

Nonsense, there are plenty of healthy americans in this country, the fat, lazy, addicted, they should die, and we should focus a bright hot light on their demise!

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Mmmmmm you and me, Let's bring back Eugenics...In a bad way. >:)

Jackboot said:

Nonsense, there are plenty of healthy americans in this country, the fat, lazy, addicted, they should die, and we should focus a bright hot light on their demise!

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These are the ones that want free health care, and think they will get it from the government.

Objective Voice said:

Ah! Then you're no different than those who suggest "death panels" are part of health care reform, i.e., since fat, lazy, unhealthy Americans should die, may as well knock off old, unemployeed grandma who's draining Medicare and living off SSI. Right?

Think before you speak...

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Yes, we should not pay for older people to live another ten years, they should die as well. If they can afford their own expensive care, great, if not, well then they should just pass on. We made this promise to people to gain votes, no one ever considered how much this would cost, we all get old, our bodies all wear out, and it is very expensive to keep these people alive.

I would ask you to think.....but that seems impossible.

Grim17 said:

I have a place in Mexico, and if you see the poor there, you will find it very hard to have any sympathy for the so called "poor" in America.

Poor people in America have cars, cell phones, microwave ovens, $500 gaming systems, a couple of TV's, ipods, mp3 players, computers, stereo systems, CD players, their kids wear $150 tennis shoes, and they aren't dying of starvation by any means. Yet it is these same people who complain because they can't pay their electric bill... give me a break.

In Mexico, people live within their means, and don't rely on the government to provide for their families. That's the way it used to be here in the US. When I was a kid, families did everything possible to avoid the shame of having to ask the government for anything. It was a matter of pride. Today, lower income families see government assistance as a lifestyle, rather than a last resort.

.

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Uh, high rates of illiteracy and a more dysfunctional government can contribute to that self-sufficiency out of necessity. The people of Mexico don't really have a sense that things could be better because they have been politically and economically isolated by more influential factions. The most revolutionary action one can take is to try and make it big in the United States, and so long as they have that outlet I doubt will be seeing any more radical activity.

Besides, you are exaggerating the rosiness of the situation of the American poor. What you are describing is more like the lower middle class.

EpicDude86 said:

Mmmmmm you and me, Let's bring back Eugenics...In a bad way. >:)

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I know you are clowning around, but eugenics have nothing to do with it, these people are not born fat, lazy, or addicted, these are choices, choices you and I should not be forced at gunpoint to support.

Objective Voice said:

Ah! Then you're no different than those who suggest "death panels" are part of health care reform, i.e., since fat, lazy, unhealthy Americans should die, may as well knock off old, unemployeed grandma who's draining Medicare and living off SSI. Right?

Think before you speak...

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We don't live in a time where we can be morally responsible an expect to dig ourselves out. if you've lived a long life, that's more than most people have gotten. We should make their suffering as painless as possible, but we should not artificially prolong their lives. They aren't paying anything into the system and are getting something out.

It's not the nice thing to say but damn, we can't afford to take care of everyone!

Jackboot said:

I know you are clowning around, but eugenics have nothing to do with it, these people are not born fat, lazy, or addicted, these are choices, choices you and I should not be forced at gunpoint to support.

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No but they breed generations of lazy, fat, addicted Americans.

EpicDude86 said:

No but they breed generations of lazy, fat, addicted Americans.

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Yes, if by "they" you mean washington liberals, and the welfare system in this country.

EpicDude86 said:

No but they breed generations of lazy, fat, addicted Americans.

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Not neccessarily Americans.......

Grim17 said:

It's not a story about taxing the rich, it's a story about a public opinion poll. They chose to cherry pick one obscure question, and ignore the most important ones.

See if this makes sense to you...

Why in the hell would someone write a story about how people think the government should pay for their health care plan, and leave out the fact that the majority of the people don't approve of that plan in the first place? If the majority don't want it, then isn't kind of silly to make how people want it payed for, the centerpiece of the story?

This story smells more like someones political agenda, than it does news.

.

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Because it's intriguing to see what people's opinions are on specific pieces of health care are and if the article covered every opinion on every part of the health care the point and message of the piece would be diluted.

Jackboot said:

Yes, if by "they" you mean washington liberals, and the welfare system in this country.

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* grumbling * the thanks button is missing, so, thanx.

I've never denied such wasn't part of the greater plan as it were.

Look, the only way to be rid of the biggest drain to this nation's budget and, thus, Medicare, is to start at the bottom rather than the top. Remake a healthier nation starting with the youth. I'm not saying create a nation of zealots, ie., Hitler Youth as I'm sure that was the first thing that came to mind for some folks reading this. But what I am saying is you can't cut off Medicare because far too many people rely on it, and you can't cut off Medicaid because like it or not, it's a cash-cow for the states. But you can fine tune the health care system by starting with prevention and fitness, and insuring people while they're young and teaching them to make healthier choices in diet and exercise, etc.

If you take better care of your body while you're young you're least likely to need a social service like Medicare when you get old. And you're least likely to need to be on tons of prescription drugs when you get old. That's the long-term affect of revamping the health care system I see. Does current health care reform legistlation go far enough in that regard? Only time will tell.

apdst said:

All this is designed to appeal to the welfare class.

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Grim17 said:

In Mexico, people live within their means, and don't rely on the government to provide for their families. That's the way it used to be here in the US. When I was a kid, families did everything possible to avoid the shame of having to ask the government for anything. It was a matter of pride. Today, lower income families see government assistance as a lifestyle, rather than a last resort.

.

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Wow, you're the second person I've ever seen address this. Winrar.


Ask not what your country can do for you...

Gibberish said:

Because it's intriguing to see what people's opinions are on specific pieces of health care are and if the article covered every opinion on every part of the health care the point and message of the piece would be diluted.

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I do believe that is exactly what Grim said.

This story smells more like someones political agenda, than it does news.

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Objective Voice said:

I've never denied such wasn't part of the greater plan as it were.

Look, the only way to be rid of the biggest drain to this nation's budget and, thus, Medicare, is to start at the bottom rather than the top. Remake a healthier nation starting with the youth. I'm not saying create a nation of zealots, ie., Hitler Youth as I'm sure that was the first thing that came to mind for some folks reading this. But what I am saying is you can't cut off Medicare because far too many people rely on it, and you can't cut off Medicaid because like it or not, it's a cash-cow for the states. But you can fine tune the health care system by starting with prevention and fitness, and insuring people while they're young and teaching them to make healthier choices in diet and exercise, etc.

If you take better care of your body while you're young you're least likely to need a social service like Medicare when you get old. And you're least likely to need to be on tons of prescription drugs when you get old. That's the long-term affect of revamping the health care system I see. Does current health care reform legistlation go far enough in that regard? Only time will tell.

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So you are admitting that the government will enforce "healthy choices"?