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New York trial for alleged 9/11 mastermind

I think we should stop being afraid of radical muslims, and start being afraid of our own government. This is yet another well planned distraction, and, as usual, we are all falling for it.
 
Who said anything about being afraid?

:lol:

I look forward to meeting you all in person at the FEMA camps.
 
EpicDude86 said:
Who said anything about being afraid?

:lol:

I look forward to meeting you all in person at the FEMA camps.
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They come into my, metaphorical, neighborhood they better sure as hell be pasty white or they're gonna get capped before they even get to my lane. I'm living with a bunch of crazy people.
 
Perhaps I should explain a tad further...

I am not one who believes in camps, in fact, it would take freedom loving americans to actually force people in to camps, and that is not going to happen. Our military, unlike our politicians, they actually believe in defending the constitution, against enemies, both foreign, and domestic.

The fear is that these politicians are bankrupting our nation, and all that will come with that. This is real, this is no longer a conspiracy theory, it is only a matter of when, and if there is a god, may he help us get through this.
 
RightinNYC said:
There were serious allegations of torture in the Padilla case.

Was Jose Padilla tortured by US military? | csmonitor.com





The government managed to deal with the abuse arguments and admissibility issues then, and I'm quite confident that they will be able to deal with it now.

As to venue, we tried and convicted the people behind the first WTC bombing in the exact same courthouse. It wasn't an insurmountable problem then, and don't think it will be an insurmountable problem now (though it may well be more difficult).



This all may well be true, but I just don't see it reaching as far as you're implying. Again, I believe the absolute best political outcome for Obama would be 5 quick convictions followed by lethal injections. If Holder is really making his decisions based on politics, then doesn't it stand to reason that that would be his goal?

I don't buy into the "Obama's a secret Muslim who wants to destroy America" theme and it doesn't seem like you do either, so I'm just having a hard time imagining an outcome on this issue that benefits Obama politically that doesn't also benefit the nation.



Fair enough. :2wave:
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The Govt. denied physically torturing Padilla. To the best of my knowledge there was no finding of fact that Padilla had received anything other than cause for psychological concern about his fate. No determination of physical torture was made. In contrast, KSM was waterboarded more than 180 times. That's clearly physical torture that the US Govt. has already admitted. That's the distinction that leads me to believe that much if not most evidence against KSM will be inadmissible.

I want to go back to the subject of military tribunals. Obama originally ordered the end of the Bush military tribunal system. Then, he reinstated the system. I wonder why Obama reinstated the system?

KSM could have been processed through the military tribunal system without bringing him to our soil, without giving him a forum to attack us, without running the risk that so much of the evidence might be ruled inadmissible, and without running a series of other risks.

I understand you believe the choice of the US District Court as the forum reflects the confidence of the Obama Administration in a successful prosecution. But even if you are correct in this belief the fact remains KSM would be just as likely to be convicted before a military tribunal.

Based on the foregoing I assume, perhaps incorrectly, that there is another motive or motives to explain why KSM and his posse will be tried in US District Court. What could that motive(s) be?

Perhaps Obama wants to restore the reputation of the American judicial system internationally. But I don't believe this because there's no payoff. The Euro Peons are already in love with Obama so this isn't necessary in order to obtain their fickle affection. Imo the nuances and subtleties of the American Criminal Justice System will escape the Arab Street. The Arab Street will be enthralled by exposure of the faults of American policy. So I don't think an international audience is Obama's primary target. At best the international community is a secondary audience.

So it seems to me there is another audience who will be pleased by the exposure of American sins. Who might they be? The American Left? This is what I believe. This belief is based on my understanding of how lawyers and politicians do things in this era. A game within a game within a game. By that I mean lawyers and politicians must necessarily anticipate events by thinking many steps ahead.

What is the most important thing to any politician? Reelection. If Obama does commit to fighting his war, he will disappoint many of his core supporters. To counter the effects of that disappointment he must give them something they want. They want a show trial of the Bush Administration and the American intelligence community.

Yes, I'm speculating. However, there is a method to my madness. By eliminating other possible motives I am left with what I believe to be the primary motive for bringing the circus to town.

I apologize for this stream of consciousness.
 
liblady said:
they are being tried in federal court, properly. i just don't see the problem. McVeigh was tried in federal court, wasn't he?
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McVeigh was a citizen, though and never taken as a prisoner of war or an enemy combatant, etc.
Huge difference.
 
Arch Enemy said:
They come into my, metaphorical, neighborhood they better sure as hell be pasty white or they're gonna get capped before they even get to my lane. I'm living with a bunch of crazy people.
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My family is bi-racial. I don't know whether your post reflects a misguided attempt at humor or if you are serious. Choose your words carefully or I will come down on you like the wrath of god.
 
Albert Di Salvo said:
My family is bi-racial. I don't know whether your post reflects a misguided attempt at humor or if you are serious. Choose your words carefully or I will come down on you like the wrath of god.
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Bible Beltway. Your Wrath of God holds no power here.

It was partially a joke, but partially serious. I've def. met some kids (children) who have only seen "black people" on television. Census work rarely goes well around these parts.

But other than that, there's a bunch of nice people and a fairly integrated society, even if it is almost 97% white.
 
1. We all better hope Lance Ito is not named the judge

2. Just picture the hairy backed terrorist's dream team

3. If it's not legit, you must acquit

4. This is the single worst decision yet made by this perplexed president---and that's saying a lot

5. The backlash is gonna be abundant

6. And it---meaning, the trial---is gonna go on for years

7. A zoo---our legal system at its most abstruse

8. A circus

9. All politics

10. The CIA, Cheney and Bush (LOL!) will be on trial as much as anyone

11. Talk about a recruitment tool for our terrorist competitors in Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan...

12. In addition to the intel exposed to the world thru discovery and other open and escoteric means

13. Mirandizing KSM

14. Evidentiary objections

15. Why are half the accused to appear before military tribunal and the other 5 in New York?

16. If you see 9-11 as a criminal act then civil court makes sense

17. If 9-11 (and/or Afghanistan) is in fact a WAR and not a police operation, then reading them their rights is analogous to treating Herman Goering, the Fat Field Marshall, like Michael Jackson accused of falling in love

18. Obama needs to EXPLAIN this---in depth

19. Instead, he's in Asia

20. While AG Holder, Janet Reno's #2, almost flippantly lobs this bombshell

21. There's a "by the way" quality to this announcement that is ear splitting

22. The president and his DOJ clearly don't get it

23. What's new?

24. They reacted to Virginia and New Jersey like Indonesians on the beach a half hour after the earthquake looking at where the ocean used to be and wondering aloud, where's the water?

25. Which is WHY Obama's in Asia

26. It's also why this bizarre bomb was blown up on a Friday

27. As if a weekend of relatively scant attention is gonna prevent Americans (and the world) obsessing over this story every day for the next 3 years

28. That's how long it took to convict Zacarias Moussaoui, the 20th hijacker, even tho that smooth backed butcher already blabbed

29. Obama/Holder eagerly provide the hairy and the smooth the planetary platform for martyrdom they aim for

30. The opportunities for propaganda so amply provided

31. Propaganda is a major theater of THIS war

32. Afghanistan is made that much more difficult by this

33. The stage set for terrorists to trash America

34. The possibility of appeals

35. This is an awfully fat domestic steak to place on the president's overplied political plate

36. Too much to digest, something's gotta go

37. Health care is kaput, defunct

38. Reid is currently scheduling it to death

39. That is, he's NOT moving

40. Anything less than SWIFT JUSTICE in this matter will offend the sensibilities of middle Americans, will stimulate one severe reaction

41. People like The pompous Prof are gonna make prodigious capital into perpetuity

42. It's already starting---a spokesperson for 9-11 Families for a Secure Americia was unequivocal: "President Obama is wrong to do this"

43. Jim Combat Boots Webb, star blue senator from richly red Virginia, has come out against the cost (hundreds of millions), the "disruptive" nature of this show trial, as well as its "counterproductivity"

44. The security risk to the Big Apple, already appreciable, admittedly, can only amass measurably

45. Cheney's side of the story, on the other hand, is sure to come out---the real danger posed by these madmen, the need to handle them with care, the demonstrable results such treatment has produced in terms of keeping America safe---so far

46. Whenever Darth Veep goes up against President Oblivious, the worldly machiavellian always unmakes the open-eyed maiden

47. EIT's got KSM to flip

48. He was hurriedly handing out addresses and phone numbers, leading to key arrests

49. When's the last time you heard mention of Holder's special prosecution of the CIA?

50. Holder, meanwhile, is the author of the Marc Rich pardon, as well as the releaser of the FSLN killers

51. That is, the prosecutor lacks veracity

52. Our courts are designed for criminal prosecutions of violators of local, state and federal codes, as well as actions taken by Americans versus their equals in civil proceedings

53. Not bazooka bearing longbeards in Tora Bora

54. Not plotters and conspirators on the Pakistan border

55. Obama announced the first major shakeup of his team yesterday

56. Sacrificed was personal attorney to the prez Greg Craig, husband of Anita Dunn (Mao admirer, banner bearer in the Fox News War, and the woman who claims she "controls the news," which, clearly, she doesn't, all the headlines are horrible)

57. Craig, one of the few non-Chicagoans surrounding Obama, took the fall for President Obtuse's embarrassing bellyflop concerning the non-closure of Gitmo

58. Oblivious Obama's initial move as president kicked back hard, NINETY senators were dissatisfied with the exec's inability to answer a single, simple question about where, when, how, who...

59. The left (in the lurch) have been lacerated excrutiatingly on health care, in Gitmo

60. Appeasing half the population of DebatePolitics.com, and their likeable like, is a major component of this move to Manhattan
 
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Arch Enemy said:
Bible Beltway. Your Wrath of God holds no power here.

It was partially a joke, but partially serious. I've def. met some kids (children) who have only seen "black people" on television. Census work rarely goes well around these parts.

But other than that, there's a bunch of nice people and a fairly integrated society, even if it is almost 97% white.
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Now that you have my attention we shall see won't we?
 
I wonder if ksm will call obama as the star witness in an attempt to get any confession and subsequent evidence tossed due to a due proccess violatoon , since yknow he called it torture.
 
I think the trial should be held in Smithfield, VA.....:)
The cost of a trial in NY will cost a forune & the added security risk will be too great.....;)
 
Albert Di Salvo said:
Racism or racialism isn't funny. It hurts. It divides. It demeans. In your case it draws unwanted attention.
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How do you stop 5 black guys from raping a white chick?

THROW EM A BASKETBALL!

:lol:

Yep...Still funny. What we're you talking about again?


You know, we always come together when we need to, and that's what matters. They want us to play nice with each other so that we become more like a herd of sheep.
 
Funny people are the first line of defense against inclusive, or oppressive regimes.
 
WillRockwell said:
If these cases are blown, it will be because of the idiotic incompetence of Bush and Cheney. As far as New York being able to handle the security of these guys, bring 'em on.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/14/nyregion/14security.html?hpw
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Great, what this debate really needed was some uninformed ranting followed by an article that says nothing about the topic of the aforementioned rant.

Albert Di Salvo said:
The Govt. denied physically torturing Padilla. To the best of my knowledge there was no finding of fact that Padilla had received anything other than cause for psychological concern about his fate. No determination of physical torture was made. In contrast, KSM was waterboarded more than 180 times. That's clearly physical torture that the US Govt. has already admitted. That's the distinction that leads me to believe that much if not most evidence against KSM will be inadmissible.
Click to expand...

I don't discount that possibility, I just have to assume that they're confident that they will have enough admissible evidence to get this done.

I want to go back to the subject of military tribunals. Obama originally ordered the end of the Bush military tribunal system. Then, he reinstated the system. I wonder why Obama reinstated the system?
Click to expand...

IMO, because he realized that he couldn't get convictions on everyone and couldn't just let these people go. It looks like it was one of many changes of heart that Obama had once he was faced with the realities of his position.

KSM could have been processed through the military tribunal system without bringing him to our soil, without giving him a forum to attack us, without running the risk that so much of the evidence might be ruled inadmissible, and without running a series of other risks.

I understand you believe the choice of the US District Court as the forum reflects the confidence of the Obama Administration in a successful prosecution. But even if you are correct in this belief the fact remains KSM would be just as likely to be convicted before a military tribunal.

Based on the foregoing I assume, perhaps incorrectly, that there is another motive or motives to explain why KSM and his posse will be tried in US District Court. What could that motive(s) be?

Perhaps Obama wants to restore the reputation of the American judicial system internationally. But I don't believe this because there's no payoff. The Euro Peons are already in love with Obama so this isn't necessary in order to obtain their fickle affection. Imo the nuances and subtleties of the American Criminal Justice System will escape the Arab Street. The Arab Street will be enthralled by exposure of the faults of American policy. So I don't think an international audience is Obama's primary target. At best the international community is a secondary audience.

So it seems to me there is another audience who will be pleased by the exposure of American sins. Who might they be? The American Left? This is what I believe. This belief is based on my understanding of how lawyers and politicians do things in this era. A game within a game within a game. By that I mean lawyers and politicians must necessarily anticipate events by thinking many steps ahead.

What is the most important thing to any politician? Reelection. If Obama does commit to fighting his war, he will disappoint many of his core supporters. To counter the effects of that disappointment he must give them something they want. They want a show trial of the Bush Administration and the American intelligence community.

Yes, I'm speculating. However, there is a method to my madness. By eliminating other possible motives I am left with what I believe to be the primary motive for bringing the circus to town.

I apologize for this stream of consciousness.
Click to expand...

There's no need to apologize, because it's a perfectly logical conclusion. I'll admit that I hadn't thought about this possibility before, and there could very well be some truth to it. However, I'm having a hard time following through because of a few sticking points:

-If you're right, then it means Obama is willing to take the risk of KSM being acquitted in order to have a chance to pillory the Bush administration's practices. I don't know that I can believe that, as it seems like a huge risk to take in order to get an advantage that could have been realized is several other ways. Obama has continuously taken the middle-road approach toward looking back at the Yoo crew, despite the fact that if he wanted to score some points on this issue, that would have been the low-hanging fruit.

-Even if we can attribute these motives to Obama, who is seeking reelection, he's not the only one who's involved in this process. For someone like Preet Bharara, a loss on the KSM trial would be career suicide. I can't imagine that he and the USA for the EDVA would be fighting to get this case if they weren't near-certain of victory. Lawyers may play all sorts of games, but they're also risk-averse (otherwise they'd be bankers).

In the end, it may well be that Obama schemed this whole plan up in order to get a political advantage. However, since we'll never really know, I can only really judge his decision by the outcome.

RightinNYC,

Here's an interesting article by Alan Dershowitz. He agrees with your conclusion about the suitability of the federal courts, but validates each of my concerns.
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You and he may well be right, and I may have understated the difficulties of prosecuting this case. At this point, I can only hope that the cases find their way to friendly judges and that they have enough admissible evidence to get things done.
 
Arch Enemy said:
We're probably going to need you in these Pre-FEMA concentration camp days.
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I will break everyone out. Even if I have to steal a uniform and blend in. and I'll do it with such panache that those who would oppose America will facepalm...like hard.


Just in case we do go FEMA-camp-ish. Look for the >:C (angry face) It's how I will lead the resistance!
 
EpicDude86 said:
I will break everyone out. Even if I have to steal a uniform and blend in. and I'll do it with such panache that those who would oppose America will facepalm...like hard.


Just in case we do go FEMA-camp-ish. Look for the >:C (angry face) It's how I will lead the resistance!
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Don't bust me out. I've already put in my request to go to the camp in Colorado and I'm gonna chill out there and get my free room and board.
 
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