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12 dead, as many as 31 injured in Fort Hood shootings

BmanMcfly said:
Now, I've never been in the millitary, so do correct me if I'm wrong. Now, it's my understanding that as you gain rank you are tested in ways that would weed out those that have 'anti-war' tendencies... right?? Now, was this his first deployment? Again, unless I'm mistaken, the millitary is not releasing his records... why would that be?
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I've read the information about his wild eyed rants in which he shouted that non-believers should be beheaded and have boiling oil poured down their throats. I'm going to wait an make sure this isn't the media taking license with someone's statements about a person that a lot of people don't really like too much right now.

I can't imagine an instance where an officer would go on an hour long rant about beheading infidels and pouring oil down their throats or making repeated anti-American rants and the military not stepping in and taking some kind of action. Not in post-9/11 America. I question the truthfulness of the those making the claims. A whole group of professional military officers all cowed by "political correctness" refuse to report a wild eyed Muslim nutjob among their ranks? Bull****. I don't buy it. I spent many years in the military pre and post 9/11. That crap doesn't go down like that. What I think is happening here is he was a quirky asshole but not to the degree that anyone would feel the need to take action against. Who knows how that "lecture" actually went down? The guy may have been reading verses from the Quran, not making literal statements, but now everyone remembers what a psycho extremist he was years later...but not extremist enough to do anything about back then. Right. From years and years of investigating homicide and other notable crimes I have found that peoples memories take a neat turn when something major like this happens and folks start asking questions.

It's issues like this that raise the question, in my mind, if this guy might have been a vitim of 'mk-ultra' mind control experiments... I mean, it's been reported that he's going around telling people of his beliefs, that he is anti-war and about to be deployed... I don't know the extent of control over a person can be obtained with the processes developed in those experiments (since what has been declassified is mainly blacked out), but if he was programmed, and the effect wanted was to show a muslim extremist, he could be programmed to talk about such topics whenever possible, untill he is 'activated' and grabs his guns and accomplishes an objective without concern for his own well-being...
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I have no idea about this stuff. I've heard of it but I don't put too much stock into it still being practiced today.


First, the 'coward' part... if his training showed him to be a coward, don't you think he would have been weeded out?? Anyway...
This paragraph leads me to my prime suggestion that this guy was most likely a prozac head... you say he had reason to be depressed... now a psychiatrist has the ability to write prescriptions... was this man on SSRI's?? (prozac / ritalin)
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When I say coward I mean mentally. He couldn't deal with deploying. This guy wasn't going to see combat, he was a psychiatrist or something. I have no idea if he was using prescription meds and I'm not going to really inject that because it's too much of a speculation (meaning there is no mention that I've found in the media reports).

If he was that says alot about what may have triggered this... IT"S ON THE INSERT for these drugs that they can create psychopathic episodes in 'rare' instances... you cannot just 'stop' taking these drugs, but must be weaned off.

So, he might very well have had one of these episodes and just got his guns and started killing people...
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From the media reports what I've reasoned is that his mental state was compromised and he went on a killing spree. He was obviously very engrossed with his religion. Religion is a very powerful thing when decoupled from reason. This man's mental state could have led to his delusion that he was in fact doing Gods work. This sort of thing has played out in several murders throughout history. To say this is a problem with Islam (in this case) is inaccurate. It's a problem with mental illness. And short term mental illness brought about by severe depression, stress, and anxiety is not outside the realm of possibility.

There's also the outside chance that he really was a muslim extremist....
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You are correct.
 
EpicDude86 said:
I wonder, if it were 'Crazy Radical Christians' would everyone be so eager to make peace? I think people are genuinely afraid of Islam and/or the backlash that comes with standing up to the wacko Mulsims.
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No one is trying to make peace.

I'm not afraid of Islam. I'm afraid of certain elements within Islam, but I refuse to walk around in constant fear. I have a life to live.
 
Next on DP 20/20, John Stossel goes inside the mind of the criminally absurd.

Arcana XV said:
My point is most Muslims have moved past that crazy stuff a long time ago.
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epicdude86-albums-stuff-picture1157-stossel-stare-2.jpg


Arcana XV said:
My point is most Muslims have moved past that crazy stuff a long time ago.
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Arcana XV said:
My point is most Muslims have moved past that crazy stuff a long time ago.
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Arcana XV said:
My point is most Muslims have moved past that crazy stuff a long time ago.
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John Stossel is staring into your soul.
 
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SgtRock said:
They are not good muslims.
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According to whom? You? Do you really think you are qualified to make that call?

Let me clue you and the rest of your ilk in on a little secret about religion. It's defined by those who practice it. That's why there are so many different sects and practices within a particular religion. Why do you think Christianity has changed so much? It's called modernization. Religion changes with the times. The only reason you haven't seen Islam change over time is because you didn't around it constantly. You don't practice it. What you have is the internet and a bunch of people who share your myopic point of view, repeating nonsense to each other until it's gospel. You and your pals use the writings in the Quaran as an excuse to vilify an entire culture regardless of their actions.

It's a cheap and pathetic ruse to mask intolerance, fear, and ignorance.
 
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SgtRock said:
We are really ****ed get used to it. Why do you suppose so called "good muslims" are not in the streets protesting when those who have hijacked there so called "peacefull religion" commit acts of violent jihad? They seem to come out of the woodwork in protest whem some artist draws a picture of Muhammad.
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No, we're not ****ed. When all is said and done, the things I fear most in life have not a thing to do with Muslims or the fanatics within the religion. Now, if I'm ever crazy enough to move to Pakistan, then maybe I'll start worrying a little bit. :lol:
 
Lerxst said:
I've read the information about his wild eyed rants in which he shouted that non-believers should be beheaded and have boiling oil poured down their throats. I'm going to wait an make sure this isn't the media taking license with someone's statements about a person that a lot of people don't really like too much right now.

I can't imagine an instance where an officer would go on an hour long rant about beheading infidels and pouring oil down their throats or making repeated anti-American rants and the military not stepping in and taking some kind of action. Not in post-9/11 America. I question the truthfulness of the those making the claims. A whole group of professional military officers all cowed by "political correctness" refuse to report a wild eyed Muslim nutjob among their ranks? Bull****. I don't buy it. I spent many years in the military pre and post 9/11. That crap doesn't go down like that. What I think is happening here is he was a quirky asshole but not to the degree that anyone would feel the need to take action against. Who knows how that "lecture" actually went down? The guy may have been reading verses from the Quran, not making literal statements, but now everyone remembers what a psycho extremist he was years later...but not extremist enough to do anything about back then. Right. From years and years of investigating homicide and other notable crimes I have found that peoples memories take a neat turn when something major like this happens and folks start asking questions.
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That's kinda what I was thinking... but my question was more specifically, in the millitary, if you are an 'anti-war' person that really doesn't have the heart to kill a man... wouldn't you have that instinct weeded out of you, or you out of the training??


I have no idea about this stuff. I've heard of it but I don't put too much stock into it still being practiced today.
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Well, on top of McVeigh being on those 'SSRI's' he was a patient of a doctor that just happened to be the TOP DOCTOR involved in the 'mk-ultra' experiments... I honestly don't know very much about this, but my understanding is that the film 'manchurian candidate' is a litteral possibility under the types of processes they put the victim through.

Now, it may be unlikely, granted... but he was a psyciatrist in the millitary (so there is the potential of being exposed to the types that would be involved in that type of project / operation), and having word of him discussing issues / alluding to his plan / antiwar sentiment, etc... are all, from my understanding, 'symptoms' that you would see in that type of case.

I, like anyone not directly involved, lacks the information to say this concretely, but if the man wakes up and claims to have no idea why he's being held, would be the next sign...

Look, I'm not trying to get into the whole 'conspiracy' aspect, but since these programs are known to exist and the circumstance, the question must be raised.

When I say coward I mean mentally. He couldn't deal with deploying. This guy wasn't going to see combat, he was a psychiatrist or something. I have no idea if he was using prescription meds and I'm not going to really inject that because it's too much of a speculation (meaning there is no mention that I've found in the media reports).


From the media reports what I've reasoned is that his mental state was compromised and he went on a killing spree. He was obviously very engrossed with his religion. Religion is a very powerful thing when decoupled from reason. This man's mental state could have led to his delusion that he was in fact doing Gods work. This sort of thing has played out in several murders throughout history. To say this is a problem with Islam (in this case) is inaccurate. It's a problem with mental illness. And short term mental illness brought about by severe depression, stress, and anxiety is not outside the realm of possibility.
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Look, I understand your not wanting to speculate, on whether or not he was taking those drugs... I forget the exact numbers, but those drugs are a factor in the 95% range of mass shootings that happen. The depression factors all play into the potential that this psychiatrist was self-medicating, and ended up with an averse reaction that caused him to act out on his frustrations.

You are correct.
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The ultimate point is that whatever the situation we don't know what really happened... I mean, was there clarification with the other 2 shooters?? I see people calling for this mans' death on partial information, all the more reason to have a trial.
 
People were lamenting the blood thirsty Christian barbarians not so long ago. But then again you didn't have Fox, CNN, and the big three bringing that into your living room back then.

Fearful, ignorant fools. I pity some of you. And I weep for our future. Religion has no power. It's the people who practice it. Some of you have no idea what you are letting yourself be sucked into. You will take the actions of a relative few and let that define your view of an entire culture, while at the same time dismissing the actions of literally hundreds of millions. You are like sheep in this. Easily herded in this direction or that.

Think about what you're saying when you foster the idea that Islam is bad and must be contained or eliminated because it will surely lead to doom because "that's what's in the Quaran." You are endorsing perpetual conflict because of the actions of a very small portion of the population of this planet.

You are no better than the firebrands who convince young Muslim men to take up arms. The only difference is you wrap yourself in the flag and patriotism and call yourself good Americans.
 
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BmanMcfly said:
That's kinda what I was thinking... but my question was more specifically, in the millitary, if you are an 'anti-war' person that really doesn't have the heart to kill a man... wouldn't you have that instinct weeded out of you, or you out of the training??
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Well not necessarily. You think it would, but you never know until you are actually faced with that situation. Further there are plenty of conscientious objectors in the military. They serve in non-combat positions. Well by plenty I mean there are some.

Well, on top of McVeigh being on those 'SSRI's' he was a patient of a doctor that just happened to be the TOP DOCTOR involved in the 'mk-ultra' experiments... I honestly don't know very much about this, but my understanding is that the film 'manchurian candidate' is a litteral possibility under the types of processes they put the victim through.

Now, it may be unlikely, granted... but he was a psyciatrist in the millitary (so there is the potential of being exposed to the types that would be involved in that type of project / operation), and having word of him discussing issues / alluding to his plan / antiwar sentiment, etc... are all, from my understanding, 'symptoms' that you would see in that type of case.

I, like anyone not directly involved, lacks the information to say this concretely, but if the man wakes up and claims to have no idea why he's being held, would be the next sign...

Look, I'm not trying to get into the whole 'conspiracy' aspect, but since these programs are known to exist and the circumstance, the question must be raised.
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Well I suppose anything is possible. Two years ago I would have laughed at the suggestion of MK ULTRA. Now, not so much.

Look, I understand your not wanting to speculate, on whether or not he was taking those drugs... I forget the exact numbers, but those drugs are a factor in the 95% range of mass shootings that happen. The depression factors all play into the potential that this psychiatrist was self-medicating, and ended up with an averse reaction that caused him to act out on his frustrations.
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This is absolutely a possibility, and I've thought about it as soon as word started spreading about his emotional profile.


The ultimate point is that whatever the situation we don't know what really happened... I mean, was there clarification with the other 2 shooters?? I see people calling for this mans' death on partial information, all the more reason to have a trial.
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I initially wanted this man to die, and I'd being lying if I didn't admit I'm a death penalty hypocrite. I don't normally support the death penalty because I don't believe that our justice system is in the business of dispensing vengeance, and that is all the death penalty is. But this incident is one of those that made me immediately wish for this guys death.

But you are right, we don't have all the information. That's kind of been my point from day one. In the face of all this nonsensical anti-Islam fear mongering and ignorant rhetoric I think that a simple call for reason wouldn't be too much to ask for. Apparently it is.

But you and I and a few others can contemplate this issue without gathering our pitchforks and torches.
 
Arcana XV said:
No one is trying to make peace.

I'm not afraid of Islam. I'm afraid of certain elements within Islam, but I refuse to walk around in constant fear. I have a life to live.
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Sorry, replace peace with whatever word for appeasment you'd like to use.
 
EpicDude86 said:
Sorry, replace peace with whatever word for appeasment you'd like to use.
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I don't understand what you're doing. Why are you trying to place labels on people that do not apply? Neither Lerxt, nor I have made excuses for this man's actions.

Just because I refuse to use an ignorant broad brush to paint all Muslims as potential threats does not mean I am blind to those who actually ARE threats. Like I said, I don't walk around thinking that ALL men are rapists either. :shrug:
 
Arcana XV said:
I don't understand what you're doing. Why are you trying to place labels on people that do not apply? Neither Lerxt, nor I have made excuses for this man's actions.

Just because I refuse to use an ignorant broad brush to paint all Muslims as potential threats does not mean I am blind to those who actually ARE threats. Like I said, I don't walk around thinking that ALL men are rapists either. :shrug:
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Ok, I meant why are people trying to appease Islam AS IF they are afraid of it. That was directed to the people who say that we need to give "Islam a chance" and **** like that.


and while I'm not afraid of every Muslim, I'm not going to be caught flat footed either. My surivival and the survival of my family, friends, and allies is paramount and I'll be damned if some extremists, who may or may not be the tip of the iceberg, take that from me.
 
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Arcana XV said:
I don't understand what you're doing. Why are you trying to place labels on people that do not apply? Neither Lerxt, nor I have made excuses for this man's actions.

Just because I refuse to use an ignorant broad brush to paint all Muslims as potential threats does not mean I am blind to those who actually ARE threats. Like I said, I don't walk around thinking that ALL men are rapists either. :shrug:
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All muslims are not terrorist. I cannot tell the difference between those who are attempting to blend into our society (sleeper cells) and those who do not take islam literally (bad muslims). Can you tell the difference?

BTW, all men are not rapist. However the so called prophet Muhammad was. He is the example that muslims live thier lives by. He was a rapist, a thief, a lier, a blood thirsty murderer, and a pedophile.
 
1069 said:
He wasn't going to Iraq.
He was headed to Afghanistan.
I heard he'd tried to stop his deployment, then stated that he'd be willing to deploy to Iraq instead.
For some reason, he just seemed especially terrified of going to Afghanistan.
It's all hearsay at this point; until he wakes up, we can only speculate about what was going through his mind.
I read today that he's now off the ventilator; not sure if that means he's recovering or dying, though.
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unsubstantiated nonsense is not needed. he did not want to deploy to either....


My Way News - Some predicted trouble from Fort Hood's Maj. Hasan
 
SgtRock said:
All muslims are not terrorist. I cannot tell the difference between those who are attempting to blend into our society (sleeper cells) and those who do not take islam literally (bad muslims). Can you tell the difference?

BTW, all men are not rapist. However the so called prophet Muhammad was. He is the example that muslims live thier lives by. He was a rapist, a thief, a lier, a blood thirsty murderer, and a pedophile.
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Yeah, the ones who don't blow themselves up at the HyVee or drive planes into skyscrapers are not terrorists. :roll:

"A japs a jap"...."I don't want any of them [persons of Japanese ancestry] here. They are a dangerous element. There is no way to determine their loyalty... It makes no difference whether he is an American citizen, he is still a Japanese. American citizenship does not necessarily determine loyalty... But we must worry about the Japanese all the time until he is wiped off the map."

Japanese....sppooooooookkky.

Yeah, you sound like that guy. Irrational.
 
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Lerxst said:
Why?
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Unless the patient is clear that the counseling services are faith-based, it's a line that most professionals will not cross, because it is considered unethical. The patient is in a vulnerable position, particularly their mental state, and that vulnerability should not be used to foist one's religious beliefs on them.

In my field, there is somewhat the same line drawn. If a child asks what you believe, you answer the question, but you don't bring up the subject and cram it down their throat (whatever your beliefs are). This is the basic rule in all sorts of human services professions.
 
Lerxst said:
Yeah, the ones who don't blow themselves up at the HyVee or drive planes into skyscrapers are not terrorists. :roll:

"A japs a jap."

Yeah, you sound like that guy. Irrational.
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He said flat out that not all muslims are terrorists. And he is correct in that it is difficult to identify those who have the capacity to commit a terrorist act, and those who would NEVER do so. In essence, our current law enforcement strategy is EXACTLY as you describe, Lerxst. To let them show, through their actions, whether they are terrorists or not. We've made arrests in cases where individuals have engaged with undercover operatives and taken responsibility for attempting to blow something up *(though they were set up, and no explosion actually occurred).

For example: http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/09/25/texas.terror.arrest/index.html

So, yeah. The ones who try to blow up a skyscraper are terrorists.
 
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He was a rapist, a thief, a lier, a blood thirsty murderer, and a pedophile.[/QUOTE]

and he always left the seat up.
 
Well, he was definitively a child molester. I can't speak to the rest.

But you know how pissy muslims get when you say this.

I don't know why. Noah was an incestuous pervert. There are multiple examples of sexual perversion in the Bible. I don't get all up in arms because someone points this out, even though I grew up very religious. :shrug: The truth is the truth.
 
Catz Part Deux said:
Well, he was definitively a child molester. I can't speak to the rest.

But you know how pissy muslims get when you say this.

I don't know why. Noah was an incestuous pervert. There are multiple examples of sexual perversion in the Bible. I don't get all up in arms because someone points this out, even though I grew up very religious. :shrug: The truth is the truth.
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The truth is none of us were around and we have differing accounts of the 'truth' in scripture.
 
SgtRock said:
All muslims are not terrorist. I cannot tell the difference between those who are attempting to blend into our society (sleeper cells) and those who do not take islam literally (bad muslims). Can you tell the difference?
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Who can?

I can't tell the difference between a rapist or a pedophile and your average man either. They all look the same to me. They all look like men at first glance. And they all hide their game really well.
 
windovervocalcords said:
The truth is none of us were around and we have differing accounts of the 'truth' in scripture.
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True, but the accounts of his relationship with Aisha all seem to culminate with him having physical relations with her before age 13. On that basis, it seems clear that he was into younger women to a degree that most of us would find criminal.

And, it's important to point this out for one reason, and one reason only: Mohammed's actions influenced Islamic law on the subject. His relationship with Aisha is the primary reason why women can "consent" to rape at age 9 in a lot of middle eastern countries. There is a MODERN relevance to this issue.

IF that weren't the case, I doubt that many of us would care, we'd shrug our shoulders and say, "different times, different values." Except that's a value that is perpetuated TODAY in places like Iran and Saudi Arabia.
 
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