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Iraqi woman, 20, dies; police in Arizona say father ran her over

This isn't the first time i've heard about this type of thing. And I'm quite sure it won't be the last.

And today wasn't the first time I've heard about someone in the south bronx shooting someone else in the south bronx. I'm also quite sure it won't be the last. Does that mean that we can just classify all black people as animals and kick them out of the country?
 
No, they're trying to "save" them and to "save" themselves. They believe they're being tested by God. They believe that anything other than the hand of god will poison their souls and their child's soul forever. The Muslim who kills his daughter or the Christian who kills his child to cast out the demon believes he's doing god's work. They don't think they're doing anything wrong either.

Now, hold on -- I thought it wasn't religious?

But it any case, no, it's not the same thing. You give examples of parents taking planned, concrete steps to kill their children. That's the outcome they want.

Withholding earthly medical attention, no matter how stupid it seems, is not at all the same thing.
 
How is it different? In both cases the person believes he/she is doing God/Allah's will. There have been cases, especially in Africa and South America, where Christian parents killed their own children because they thought their kids were possessed by the devil. Insanity in the name of god is not solely a Muslim trait.



Arcana, The Christians you speak of I believe were prosecuted and sentenced as well were they not? As in the cases of Latin America, and African children that met these fates were also not in a land or culture that had specific laws in place governing behavior concerning this. We are a land of law, and as such I don't think anyone can make the case that culture over rules law? Moral equivalence will not suffice either. Because just as ignorance in no defense in the eyes of the court, neither is your moral equivalence. In in fact is rather disgusting to suggest.

If this family wanted a pure life in the eyes of Allah, then there are plenty of Muslim countries that have the luxuries of the western world that they could have chosen to live. But they didn't, they came here, and as such are bound by our law.


j-mac
 
How is it different? In both cases the person believes he/she is doing God/Allah's will. There have been cases, especially in Africa and South America, where Christian parents killed their own children because they thought their kids were possessed by the devil. Insanity in the name of god is not solely a Muslim trait.

Let's say that 20 years down the road, we've developed a technology that allows us to cure most diseases. You have a child who is sick, so this is of great comfort to you. The only problem is that in order to get the parts for this cure, you have to donate an egg, which is then fertilized and grown until its 8 months and 29 days old. Then, the fetus is torn into pieces and used for parts to help treat your current child.

Now, I don't know about your views, but I'm sure you can imagine that some people would have a problem with that. If they refused to go through that process, and as a result, their first child died, does that make them murderers?
 
Now, hold on -- I thought it wasn't religious?

I don't think it is, no. The practice would be much more wide spread in the entire Muslim world if religion was all there was to this issue. And if it is religious in nature, I think we've established that Muslims are not the only ones who harm their children, intentionally or not. If steps are taken to prevent certain "undesirables" from immigrating into the West, ALL religious groups should be targeted as they ALL have dangerous fundamentalists in their midst.

But it any case, no, it's not the same thing. You give examples of parents taking planned, concrete steps to kill their children. That's the outcome they want.

Withholding earthly medical attention, no matter how stupid it seems, is not at all the same thing.

Well, of course it's not the same thing. In one case the parent is waiting for god to act and in the other the parent is acting in the name of god. The similarity lies in the fact that both believe they are doing the right thing.
 
Let's say that 20 years down the road, we've developed a technology that allows us to cure most diseases. You have a child who is sick, so this is of great comfort to you. The only problem is that in order to get the parts for this cure, you have to donate an egg, which is then fertilized and grown until its 8 months and 29 days old. Then, the fetus is torn into pieces and used for parts to help treat your current child.

Now, I don't know about your views, but I'm sure you can imagine that some people would have a problem with that. If they refused to go through that process, and as a result, their first child died, does that make them murderers?

Too, you have the examples of, say, deaf or blind parents who take steps to ensure that their children are also deaf or blind, out of a sense of "community."
 
These are some sick bastards who would rather kill their own flesh and blood because they don't agree with how they act or dress. I myself had a girlfriend, Turkish sunni, who was very beautiful. Her father after finding out we were dating for over a year, threatened her life and her sister's life if she didn't break it off with me. The guy was a raving lunatic. This happens more than is let on - and we only hear about those that actually get killed. The one's that are mentally or physically abused or threatened we don't hear about.

Unfortunately there's no way to weed these idiots out of the country. It's a shame. If this dope wanted his family to live like Iraqi's he should have mustered up some courage and gone to another Muslim country or stayed in Iraq. But the coward didn't have courage and could only kill his daughter. Hope he stays in jail a long long time and is tormented every hour of every day.

You know, the irony here is we forget that bigotry and racism isn't limited to just black and white, or Mexican versus American. Such nonsense happens all the time no matter what the racial/religious divide. Many Middle-Easterners (primarily males) still believe that mixing races (nevermind religious believes) is a disgrace! Take, for example, if I, as an African-American male, were a member of the Nation of Islam in America and I were dating this man's daughter. Do you think her father would allow the relationship to continue just because we practised the same religion - Islam? No! He'd likely be against the relationship first and foremost because I am black and would likely find every excuse in the book to tear the relationship apart on racial lines instead of acknowledging we share the same faith which would certainly be a feather in my cap...if that were the case.

But alas, I am a Christain, so...

This poor woman didn't die because she loved the wrong guy or because she became too Americanized. She died because her father was stupid and couldn't see past his one racial and cultural hatred. Get a clue all ye foreigners who wish to relocated their family to America: If you have young children, expect that eventually they will become Americanized. If you come to America, expect to be obsorbed into American culture. If you are concerned that somewhere along the way your family values will be lost, you've got two choices:

1) Find a way to blend both cultures without losing all traces of your own, or;
2) Move back to where you came from.

Because no matter how hard you try to shelter your younglings, eventually they will begin to embrace some aspects of American culture. And if you really didn't want your children to be a part of this country's culture, you shouldn't have come here in the first place. It's just that simple.

I want to make one thing perfectly clear: The same would apply in the reverse. If I decided to move to Japan, for example, I'd better expect that in order to live there I'd have to embrace Japanesse culture. So, if I'm not prepared for that or I find I can't handle it, it's in my best interest to go back to where I came from.
 
Arcana, The Christians you speak of I believe were prosecuted and sentenced as well were they not? As in the cases of Latin America, and African children that met these fates were also not in a land or culture that had specific laws in place governing behavior concerning this. We are a land of law, and as such I don't think anyone can make the case that culture over rules law? Moral equivalence will not suffice either. Because just as ignorance in no defense in the eyes of the court, neither is your moral equivalence. In in fact is rather disgusting to suggest.

If this family wanted a pure life in the eyes of Allah, then there are plenty of Muslim countries that have the luxuries of the western world that they could have chosen to live. But they didn't, they came here, and as such are bound by our law.


j-mac

I think you misunderstand my position in this thread.

I never said that these people should not be prosecuted to the full extent of the law of the land they reside in. You do the crime, you absolutely do the time and i don't give a rat's ass what invisible friend in the sky you pray to or what cultural or religious excuse you claim to have.

My problem in this discussion is more with the idea of a few crazy Muslims killing their daughters leading to the flawed conclusion that ALL Muslims are the same. They're not. It's a clearly tribal thing.
 
Let's say that 20 years down the road, we've developed a technology that allows us to cure most diseases. You have a child who is sick, so this is of great comfort to you. The only problem is that in order to get the parts for this cure, you have to donate an egg, which is then fertilized and grown until its 8 months and 29 days old. Then, the fetus is torn into pieces and used for parts to help treat your current child.

Now, I don't know about your views, but I'm sure you can imagine that some people would have a problem with that. If they refused to go through that process, and as a result, their first child died, does that make them murderers?

This scenario treads dangerously into the abortion debate and is a far cry from simply providing your child with medication to treat her diabetes so she will not die.

But I will answer your question. From a purely personal point of view, these parents will only be murderers if they do agree to tear an 8 month old fetus to pieces. I have a very hard time imagining that your scenario will ever come to be. The abortion laws of practically every country on the planet would have to be completely overhauled. This opens up a whole new can of worms.
 
I think you misunderstand my position in this thread.


So you weren't saying that murders committed by American, or Christian, or any other group were equal to this?


Hmmmm.....So when you say this:

The Muslim who kills his daughter or the Christian who kills his child to cast out the demon believes he's doing god's work.

You don't really believe that they are similar?


I never said that these people should not be prosecuted to the full extent of the law of the land they reside in. You do the crime, you absolutely do the time and i don't give a rat's ass what invisible friend in the sky you pray to or what cultural or religious excuse you claim to have.


That's right. You never said it. Why not?


My problem in this discussion is more with the idea of a few crazy Muslims killing their daughters leading to the flawed conclusion that ALL Muslims are the same. They're not. It's a clearly tribal thing.


Do you think the numbers of "honor killings" in Traditional Muslim countries is under reported, or about right?


j-mac
 
So you weren't saying that murders committed by American, or Christian, or any other group were equal to this?


Hmmmm.....So when you say this:



You don't really believe that they are similar?

When I say that you misunderstand my position in this thread I'm not talking about how equal murder is to murder. I'm talking about your implication that I'm trying to make excuses for anyone's murderous actions.


That's right. You never said it. Why not?

Do I have to make it clear that murderers should be prosecuted no matter what excuse they claim to have for their actions? :shock: Okay, then. I'll keep that in mind in the future. I guess I've been over-estimating the intelligence of the posters in this forum.

Tell me now, j-mac, did I say at any point in this discussion that they should NOT be prosecuted? You're focusing on a discussion that was not taking place. We were not talking about the legal consequences of murder. We were talking about implementing new immigration policies targeting an entire ethnic/religious group just because of the actions of a few.

Do you think the numbers of "honor killings" in Traditional Muslim countries is under reported, or about right?


j-mac

Honor killings are under-reported in ALL countries where they are practiced. Not just the Muslim ones. It still doesn't change the fact that in many parts of the world these killings are not culturally acceptable, regardless of the majority Muslim demographic.
 
The Religion of Peace...oh yeah!

This honor killing crap ( there is hardly a better word for it) is not just Iraqi and maybe not exclusively Muslim but it is very much a predominate 'hobby' in the MiddleEast. Since Mulimism started in and spread out of the MiddleEast even far flung Muslim outposts such as Chechenya are restoring "honor" killings.
 
So how do you tell the ones who won't ever fit in from the ones who will? :roll:

Please stop using this tragedy to feed your misguided conclusions. Just because one crazy guy ran over his daughter doesn't mean all Iraqi immigrants will.

Not just Iraqi immigrants but MiddleEastern immigrants have the honor killing disease.
 
One person murders someone = the other 100k are animals

Awesome logic guys, well done.

oK I was a wee bit harsh but let us list some of the activities of the 100 million Iraqi’s:

car b0mbings almost every day

explosion at Christian Churches

attack on and killings of Christians and various forms of Religious Genocide

killing of other Muslim types

beheadings

mistreatment of its Kurdish population

mistreatment of its various minorities

deportation and Arabization policies

Sunni vs Siite violence

We can go on and on. No not all of the 100, 000, 000 are animals but when the majority does not stop the minority how can we just blame the leaders.
 
of course what he did is despicable. every murder is despicable, and plenty of natural born americans commit them.

yes they do but people like hm supposedly come here to live under a better system be it economic or political or both. Yes, natural born Americans do commit murder but my problem is the why this slug committed murder. he wants to live the culture of where he came from and he spit in he face of our laws.

When my parents came here with a 2 1/2 year F107SABR in tow they did not try to live the ways of where they came from. They adopted to their adopted country and they even named we after an American jet fighter LOL
 
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No, we only need to ban Muslims from owning or driving cars. LOL !!

No, we need to eradicate Islam. It's no better than the KKK, or the Black Panther Party.
 
When I say that you misunderstand my position in this thread I'm not talking about how equal murder is to murder. I'm talking about your implication that I'm trying to make excuses for anyone's murderous actions.


But you kind of are. See, in my eyes when you try and mash all murders together, making one no worse than the other in retrospect, then I think you are diminishing the crime committed, and making excuses for this man.


Do I have to make it clear that murderers should be prosecuted no matter what excuse they claim to have for their actions? Okay, then. I'll keep that in mind in the future. I guess I've been over-estimating the intelligence of the posters in this forum.


Ok, so I am stupid.....What an intelligent debate style. :clap:


Tell me now, j-mac, did I say at any point in this discussion that they should NOT be prosecuted? You're focusing on a discussion that was not taking place. We were not talking about the legal consequences of murder. We were talking about implementing new immigration policies targeting an entire ethnic/religious group just because of the actions of a few.


Our immigration policies are just fine if not should be strengthened. We just need to enforce them better.


Honor killings are under-reported in ALL countries where they are practiced. Not just the Muslim ones. It still doesn't change the fact that in many parts of the world these killings are not culturally acceptable, regardless of the majority Muslim demographic.


If it is so culturally unacceptable, then why the underreporting? Wouldn't shedding a light on them make them less prevalent?


j-mac
 
But you kind of are. See, in my eyes when you try and mash all murders together, making one no worse than the other in retrospect, then I think you are diminishing the crime committed, and making excuses for this man.

No. I do it for the same reason I don't buy into the whole "hate crime" mindset. Murder is murder, period. The religion or the motives behind it don't matter all that much to me. Those are excuses and more often than not fodder for a certain type of rhetoric.


Ok, so I am stupid.....What an intelligent debate style. :clap:

Well, maybe next time, take time to read the thread and don't go off on a tangent that is not even being discussed. :shrug:

Our immigration policies are just fine if not should be strengthened. We just need to enforce them better.

That doesn't really address what was being talked about in this thread in response to the OP. Do you think that what is being proposed in this thread would be a good idea? Should people of a certain ethnicity be "screened" as to their ability to fit in and do you think such a thing is even possible to implement? More importantly, would the results of such "screening" be accurate and reliable?

If it is so culturally unacceptable, then why the underreporting? Wouldn't shedding a light on them make them less prevalent?


j-mac

That is not what I said. Please read it again.

The underreporting occurs in the countries where it IS culturally acceptable. You are for some reason ignoring the fact that some majority Muslim countries, Indonesia most specifically, do not practice honor killings. It is not a culturally acceptable practice in that specific part of the Muslim world. Which is the core of my argument int his thread, it's not so much about religion, but about cultural traditions.
 
Christian-Americans Forbidden To Kill Murderer If He Is Muslim
Arizona Prosecutors Won’t Seek Death Penalty in Honor Killing
February 19th http://pajamasmedia.com/phyllischesler/

"Remember the case in which Faleh al-Maleki, an Iraqi-American father brutally ran over his daughter, Noor, in Arizona, then attempted to escape but was apprehended in Britain and returned to face justice?

Guess what’s just happened? The Arizona prosecutors have been scared off seeking the death penalty. Public defender Billy Little raised the specter of “How will it look for Christians to execute a Muslim?”

I kid you not.

Billy Little asked the judge to “take special precautions to ensure the County Attorney’s Office wouldn’t wrongly seek the death penalty because Almaleki is a Muslim.” Little called for an “open process (to) provide some level of assurance that there is no appearance that a Christian is seeking to execute a Muslim for racial, political, religious or cultural beliefs,” referring to County Attorney Andrew Thomas’ Christian faith....

Also see Arizona Republic Dad accused in 'honor killing' will not face death penalty
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The Religion of Peace...oh yeah!

One could apply your obtuse reasoning to Christianity which in it's time was infinitely more bloodthirsty.
 
One could apply your obtuse reasoning to Christianity which in it's time was infinitely more bloodthirsty.

Not really, but who cares about history. It was just around much longer. :roll:

Anyway, Islam is not the problem, this has little to do with Islam as it does not say honor killing is OK. It is a culture thing.
 
One could apply your obtuse reasoning to Christianity which in it's time was infinitely more bloodthirsty.

Ahh those nasty little words "in it's time"... but even then isn't true.

Despite the Crusades and Inquisition, there little to match the First 500 Years of Islam. Certainly it doesn't pale in comparison to anything.

Raping and pillaging through the Middle East, North Africa, and Southern Europe...and of course North India.

One must remember of course ARABs were Only originally from ARABia only, the ARABian Peninsula, Now Saudi ARABia, and didn't get to be from anywhere else until Big Mo/'Islam' lit a fire under their asses ... and now 'natives' of 22 countries.
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