• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Report: Amtrak loss comes to $32 per passenger

You've yet to prove anything of the sort. All you've done is found someone (a very questionable someone) who agrees with your assertion, but who, like you, doesn't seem to have any numbers or detailed studies of his own to back it all up. This just isn't enough for me, I'm afraid.

I ask again, do you have any actual data (numbers, statistics, reports, documented studies/evidence) to support your assertion that "rail actually increases traffic?"

See, where as I give you a theoretical argument, you offer nothing. You don't realize that the people who are on the trains are usually just people that previously were on the bus. As such, you're not really taking people off of the road, but increased development and higher pedestrian activity will lead to higher auto congestion.

The Contribution of Highways and Transit to Congestion Relief: A Realistic View

What I gave you before was a summary of a paper, and since you can't seem to realize that, there's the link to a paper. Everything you need is there.

You have to realize that the point of rail is to give people option to commute, not to reduce traffic (because it will never accomplish that). However, since I point out the falsehoods in your argument about reducing traffic, you want to set up a straw man to make me look like I'm against rail. I'm not. I think the way that we have designed cities is stupid because it has been all cars without any attention given to rail or bikes or walking.
 
Re: And You Want the Government to Run Health Care?

No, the govt's reason for existence is to protect our rights.


No, it's to "form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity".

They had bigger things in mind then solely securing our rights, which is why there is even a Bill of Rights ... it got added on later.
 
Re: And You Want the Government to Run Health Care?

No. What I'm saying is the government's entire reason for being is to provide public services.

Like all the things listed in the Constitution. :doh


And what of those things not enumerated?



j-mac
 
Re: And You Want the Government to Run Health Care?

No, it's to "form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity".

They had bigger things in mind then solely securing our rights, which is why there is even a Bill of Rights ... it got added on later.


I think you are having a severe lack of understanding in comprehension if you think that the words:

"In order to form a more perfect union..." meant in any way that it was to carry on to the will of the people to vote themselves treasure, and goodies from the public wealth.

Also, define "Justice" for me.


j-mac
 
phattonez said:
You have to realize that the point of rail is to give people option to commute, not to reduce traffic (because it will never accomplish that). However, since I point out the falsehoods in your argument about reducing traffic,
Rail doesn't reduce traffic?


...what would happen if the New York City subway system didn't exist.


New York would need the equivilent of 76 Brooklyn Bridges, or in lieu of that, a 228 lane Brooklyn Bridge. It would also have to turn a whole bunch of Manhattan and Brooklyn into a parking lot.

[...]

from 8:00AM to 8:59 AM on an average Fall day in 2007 the NYC Subway carried 388,802 passengers into the CBD on 370 trains over 22 tracks. In other words, a train carrying 1,050 people crossed into the CBD every 6 seconds.

[...]

At best, it would take 167 inbound lanes, or 84 copies of the Queens Midtown Tunnel, to carry what the NYC Subway carries over 22 inbound tracks through 12 tunnels and 2 (partial) bridges.


New York City Without A Subway Would Be A Giant Parking Lot

Now I don't think this is some beltway 'think tank' with their calculators and pocket protectors trying to make a serious argument about anything. I know it's a pretty simplistic approach to make a point, so I'm not delving into methodology or anything like that, just offering food for thought.

Though I must admit, I'm impressed with the amount of people they can move in an hour.
 
Re: And You Want the Government to Run Health Care?

No. What I'm saying is the government's entire reason for being is to provide public services.

Like all the things listed in the Constitution. :doh

What "public service" is enumerated in the Constitution? Could you post them here for our review. :doh
 
Re: And You Want the Government to Run Health Care?

No, the govt's reason for existence is to protect our rights.

Slight correction: the Constitution states that the Federal Governments role as being the defense of the nation and to administer our laws.

Of course, part of that law part can be argued to include protecting our rights; but those rights are enumerated and they don't include "Government services" as the Libruls keep arguing for.
 
See, where as I give you a theoretical argument, you offer nothing.

On the contrary, I gave you a thoroughly documented study, complete with verified research done by a host of qualified experts working for a trusted state agency.

In response, you offer the criticisms of an anti-rail mouthpiece, and a lot of "theories." I'm still not seeing any sort of research, documented studies or evidence that proves "Rail actually increases traffic." (As a side note, the entire paper is not presented and the footnote links do not work; perhaps Cox's own study on how "rail actually increases traffic" is in the missing Methodology portion...)

To begin with, Mr. Cox's entire base premise is laughably incorrect:

Transit plays an important role in America ... which is to provide mobility for those who do not have a car available.

If his understanding of public transit is this biased and myopic, any assumptions he makes based on that flawed premise can be called into question.

Oddly enough, your own view of public transit is terribly skewed (perhaps that's why you champion Cox's essay):

the people who are on the trains are usually just people that previously were on the bus.

From this narrow view, I can only assume you've never lived or worked in a large metropolitan city, nor regularly commuted via rail for any reason whatsoever.

It appears that Mr. Cox's primary solution to ever-increasing traffic and congestion is... more/better roads. (Big shock, that.)

intelligent highways on major busy roads. Such highways would include sensors that detect and control cars, with computers that automatically steer, accelerate, and slow cars in tandem. This would allow much higher traffic flows per lane than are currently seen, perhaps quadrupling the capacities of a given highway space.

Many automobiles today have cruise control, and some newer models sense when a car ahead slows down and automatically slow in response. The Toyota 2004 Prius will self-steer. All that will be needed is to connect self-accelerating, self-braking, self-steering cars to an intelligent highway network.

While this "solution" sounds very nice, Cox gives no indication of what this design model would actually entail: what building these intelligent highways would cost, what it would cost to retrofit all vehicle manufacturing plants and replace all existing vehicles with self-accelerating, self-braking, self-steering cars, how the roads would be built/retrofitted so as not to further impede traffic and increase congestion, and how long this road-building / "smart car" replacement process would take. (Again, no documentation or realistic alternative solutions, just a lot of nutty "theories").

Then, Cox tosses this gem of critical thinking out there:

Hybrid-electric cars such as the Prius also virtually eliminate air emissions and greatly reduce energy consumption. Thus, most of the reasons cited for heavy investments in rail transit--saving energy, reducing air pollution, and solving congestion--are being taken care of at a much lower cost without attempting to force people who can drive to use less efficient mass transit.

For this nutty idea to bear fruit, every car on the road would have to be a hybrid-electric vehicle. Oh, and nobody is trying to "force" people who can drive to use mass transit. Nice hyperbole. :roll:

Finally, this bolded portion of Cox's anti-rail screed is a flat-out lie, and I know this because I live along I-5, 30 miles from Portland:

Portland is also obsessed with rail transit at the expense of auto driving. A major bottleneck in the region is located on Interstate 5, which runs north and south from Washington, through Oregon and into California. A crucial segment of the highway runs through the city of Portland but has only two lanes each way and is heavily congested. For 50 miles to the north and south of this segment, Interstate 5 is at least a six-lane highway, much of it in rural areas.

I think the way that we have designed cities is stupid because it has been all cars without any attention given to rail or bikes or walking.

On this we can agree. However, your friend Mr. Cox has plenty of complaints about the second-most bike-friendly city in the world - Portland OR - and its efforts to address the needs of pedestrians and bike riders. Evidently, he believes people on bikes and on foot are just as much his enemy as public transportation is.

What Does Not Work
Many urbanized areas have reduced traffic signal coordination; changed one-way streets to two-way (effectively eliminating signal coordination); placed barriers in roads (euphemistically called traffic calming but more accurately titled congestion building ); and spent transportation funds that could be used to reduce congestion on unrelated activities. Supporters of these steps include a congestion coalition of planners, urban environmentalists, transit agencies, and transit builders who hope to gain when people agree to build rail transit out of desperation.

Portland, Oregon, is a leader in this movement. Local officials have put speed bumps in collector streets and eliminated lanes from minor arterials. The regional transportation plan for the Portland area calls for turning many arterials into boulevards --the planners' term for fewer lanes and wider sidewalks--with the aim of increasing walking and bicycling at the expense of driving.

In conclusion, Mr. Cox's premises are egregiously flawed, his "solutions" are either wildly impractical and/or utterly impossible to implement, his principle sources of funding remain troublesome, and he has not produced a valid study that clearly contradicts the work that TTI has been doing for decades.

I'm afraid your "rail actually increases traffic" argument remains unproven.
 
Meanwhile back to the thread topic; rail programs in almost ALL cases require massive tax supported subsidies in order to keep them in business because the consumers do not wish to deal with the inconvenience of such travel and the times involved.

In other words, it costs far more to support such Government programs than the value they provide.

Carry on. :2wave:
 
Wendell Cox? The gun-for-hire who's funded by the road-building industry to slam public transportation? The guy who says public transportation is a "welfare service?"

If it's operating under taxpayer subsidy, it IS a welfare program.

If it's operating at a profit, it should be privatized.

That's not complicated.
 
Re: And You Want the Government to Run Health Care?

WOAH! Back up the communist train for a moment.....So Glinda, you are saying that the Governments entire reason for being is to give us stuff?

Then why do you suppose that the founders came up with this?


[ article 1, section 8 ]

j-mac

I'm sure you're aware that certain kinds of people see only two words in that article, the "general" and the "welfare".

Just like some people have "not" blindness, a strange inexplicable neurological disorder that causes them to a sentence you'll recognize this way:

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall be infringed."

Too many of these people become Supreme Court justices.
 
Last edited:
Why is it people are against funding a train system, but don't protest the government building roads?
 
Why is it people are against funding a train system, but don't protest the government building roads?

Because the trains can be replaced by private commercial carriers, and the existence of the Amtrak subsidy does, in fact, cause cause hardship for those carriers.

Not to mention the fact that the governent is running their choo-choos at a loss.

The only reasons the government is running Amtrak is to make goonions happy and keep the cost of commuting low for Joe Biden (okay, he no longer commutes to Delaware, so there's only one reason.)
 
Why is it people are against funding a train system, but don't protest the government building roads?

I am amazed that people cannot see the difference.

Public roads are paid for by taxpayers with no expectation of a return but with the knowledge that ALL taxpayers will benefit from the roads.

Many roads are not paid for or built by Government, but required as part of approvals by the developers. Many are private and funded by individuals.

Rail service is a relatively selective service that currently benefits only a few. The argument here is not against rail service; but that if there is demand, then those using the service should pay the cost of the service.

Why should taxpayers subsidize a service that only benefits a select few who use it? We are not talking about subways or street cars, the thread topic is AMtrack.

If the REAL cost to take the train from San Francisco to Seattle is $850; then people riding the train should pay $850; not $150 letting the taxpayers pick up the balance.
 
I'm amazed that people don't see the benefit in encouraging train travel and building up a train system that will be a viable alternative to car travel.

I suppose you all are against the funding of public education too. It only benefits kids, not everyone. It loses money too.
 
Rail doesn't reduce traffic?

Now I don't think this is some beltway 'think tank' with their calculators and pocket protectors trying to make a serious argument about anything. I know it's a pretty simplistic approach to make a point, so I'm not delving into methodology or anything like that, just offering food for thought.

Though I must admit, I'm impressed with the amount of people they can move in an hour.

It's a stupid argument. New York wouldn't have developed like it had without the subways, so your argument means nothing.
 
I'm amazed that people don't see the benefit in encouraging train travel and building up a train system that will be a viable alternative to car travel.

I am amazed that you think that people are against encouraging rail travel.

If train travel was truly economical and of more benefit than other forms of travel, people would be demanding it and it would be profitable without the need for vast Government subsidies.

No one is arguing against rail travel; the debate is that taxpayers should not be subsidizing you if rail travel is your preference. :doh

I suppose you all are against the funding of public education too. It only benefits kids, not everyone. It loses money too.

Educating our kids most definitely benefits society as a whole; I am stunned how anyone would think that it doesn't.

Relating rail travel to education is absurd in the extreme and completely lacking in logic. :roll:
 
On the contrary, I gave you a thoroughly documented study, complete with verified research done by a host of qualified experts working for a trusted state agency.

Except it showed correlation, and as I showed you, there are a ton of reasons that could explain the disparity. You can't just pick one and disregard the others like you tried to do.

In response, you offer the criticisms of an anti-rail mouthpiece, and a lot of "theories." I'm still not seeing any sort of research, documented studies or evidence that proves "Rail actually increases traffic." (As a side note, the entire paper is not presented and the footnote links do not work; perhaps Cox's own study on how "rail actually increases traffic" is in the missing Methodology portion...)

To begin with, Mr. Cox's entire base premise is laughably incorrect:



If his understanding of public transit is this biased and myopic, any assumptions he makes based on that flawed premise can be called into question.

Oddly enough, your own view of public transit is terribly skewed (perhaps that's why you champion Cox's essay):



From this narrow view, I can only assume you've never lived or worked in a large metropolitan city, nor regularly commuted via rail for any reason whatsoever.

It appears that Mr. Cox's primary solution to ever-increasing traffic and congestion is... more/better roads. (Big shock, that.)



While this "solution" sounds very nice, Cox gives no indication of what this design model would actually entail: what building these intelligent highways would cost, what it would cost to retrofit all vehicle manufacturing plants and replace all existing vehicles with self-accelerating, self-braking, self-steering cars, how the roads would be built/retrofitted so as not to further impede traffic and increase congestion, and how long this road-building / "smart car" replacement process would take. (Again, no documentation or realistic alternative solutions, just a lot of nutty "theories").

Then, Cox tosses this gem of critical thinking out there:



For this nutty idea to bear fruit, every car on the road would have to be a hybrid-electric vehicle. Oh, and nobody is trying to "force" people who can drive to use mass transit. Nice hyperbole. :roll:

Finally, this bolded portion of Cox's anti-rail screed is a flat-out lie, and I know this because I live along I-5, 30 miles from Portland:

Strangely enough, you didn't argue against the point he was making that it is more efficient to invest in roads if you want to decrease auto congestion.

On this we can agree. However, your friend Mr. Cox has plenty of complaints about the second-most bike-friendly city in the world - Portland OR - and its efforts to address the needs of pedestrians and bike riders. Evidently, he believes people on bikes and on foot are just as much his enemy as public transportation is.

My friend? Nice use of oratory. It's more like I'm just using him to prove that you can't expect rail to decrease auto traffic.

In conclusion, Mr. Cox's premises are egregiously flawed, his "solutions" are either wildly impractical and/or utterly impossible to implement, his principle sources of funding remain troublesome, and he has not produced a valid study that clearly contradicts the work that TTI has been doing for decades.

I'm afraid your "rail actually increases traffic" argument remains unproven.

He has as much of a study as you showed. It takes a lot more than an observational study to prove that rail is the reason for the decreased traffic. There are a ton of other variables that were not accounted for.
 
If train travel was truly economical and of more benefit than other forms of travel, people would be demanding it and it would be profitable without the need for vast Government subsidies.

Isn't the interstate highway system subssidized with tax dollars?
 
Back
Top Bottom