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U.S. troops hope Afghanistan sacrifices not in vain

Catawba said:
We have no right to enforce our way of government on others at the end of a gun.
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Who's doing that? Did they not have open elections? Certainly more fair than Afghanistan.


j-mac
 
reefedjib said:
I'll skip arguing this point, since 1) I've done it 3 times in 3 days already, 2)

Wise choice.

I am currently internally debating the point (did Bush know there were no WMDs? - I don't think he did.

It was his job to know. If he took us to war without knowing that is just as bad.

Is being in the national interest sufficient to justify an invasion or does it have to be in national defense? - I think national interest is sufficient).
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I don't believe coveting another region's oil is adequate national interest.
 
Catawba said:
Why is that? It is the most authoritative report on the failure of our "war on terror." To ignore it is to increase the threat to our National Security!
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I suppose you support the alternative, that is Saddam's sons raping and torturing ordinary Iraqis at will?
 
j-mac said:
Oh please.....The question is two fold. One, do you think that what America is doing there is the right thing?

If you are talking about Iraq, hell no! If you are talking about Afghanistan, I have no idea what we are doing there? Revenge I suppose.


and Two, do you want America to succeed?
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Succeed at what? Yes, I want America to succeed at being more moral than those that attacked us.
 
Catawba said:
I don't believe coveting another region's oil is adequate national interest.
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Obviously that's not the case seeing as how the cost of gas quadrupled and quintupled instead of decreasing.

If I felt that he intentionally went through all this just to secure financial profit from the oil-industry I'd be all over it.
 
Catawba said:
Succeed at what? Yes, I want America to succeed at being more moral than those that attacked us.
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Theres some of that great "pro-American" attitude. :roll:




We are far "more moral" than the terrorists..... To suggest otherwise is to either be woefully ignorant or a purposeful anti-American, enemy sympathizer. :shrug:
 
j-mac said:
Who's doing that? Did they not have open elections? Certainly more fair than Afghanistan.
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We overthrew their government and helped select those they would vote on under our military occupation, and we use our full-occupation force to prop them up and protect them from their own people.

You have a funny notion of freedom.
 
Catawba said:
We overthrew their government and helped select those they would vote on under our military occupation, and we use our full-occupation force to prop them up and protect them from their own people.

You have a funny notion of freedom.
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:lol: so you liked the "freedom" they had before better? :doh
 
American said:
I suppose you support the alternative, that is Saddam's sons raping and torturing ordinary Iraqis at will?
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You could have taken out Saddam's sons with your six-shooter there. When Saddam was at his murderous worst, we were his allies, (Rumsfeld was over there shaking his hand) so I do not believe that was the reason.

6a00d8341e75ed53ef01156f39f645970c-800wi
 
j-mac said:
I bet you would be against drilling our own reserves as well no?
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What oil? We passed peak oil years ago. Why do you think we have been importing foreign oil for decades? If it had been a viable option, don't you think it would have been done during the 12 years the Republican's were in charge of Congress???
 
Catawba said:
If you are talking about Iraq, hell no!
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What do you think would have been the outcome for the Iraqi people, had Saddam Hussein, and his evil sons been allowed to continue to brutally dominate his own people, while at the same time continuing to develop WMD unchecked, under a corrupt UN system of inspection?


If you are talking about Afghanistan, I have no idea what we are doing there? Revenge I suppose.
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Revenge against whom? Are we not there trying to provide Afghanistan ample breathing room to get its governmental affairs in order so that we can leave the security of that country to itself without fear that the Taliban will again take over?


We overthrew their government and helped select those they would vote on under our military occupation, and we use our full-occupation force to prop them up and protect them from their own people.

You have a funny notion of freedom.
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Was this better?


ABID HUSSAN took one step inside the foul-smelling prison cell and began to shake. Beads of sweat ran down his forehead and behind his gold-rimmed spectacles. The 45-year-old shopkeeper pointed to the electric cables hanging from the ceiling where President Saddam Hussein’s security police would torture him three times a day.

People tried to elbow their way inside this impossibly small 6ft by 4ft torture chamber. They were anxious to sift through the documents carpeting the floor to see if it gave a clue to what became of a loved one, or friend, who had been dragged inside here and was never heard of again.


Inside the hell of Saddam's torture chambers - Times Online
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That is who you defend as being better in charge of Iraq?


j-mac
 
Catawba said:
You could have taken out Saddam's sons with your six-shooter there. When Saddam was at his murderous worst, we were his allies, (Rumsfeld was over there shaking his hand) so I do not believe that was the reason.

6a00d8341e75ed53ef01156f39f645970c-800wi
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Yeah, I know you can take past events and twist them into something incoherent to support your arguments. That's very cute and we've all seen the photos. Kinda of like FDR sitting next to Stalin makes him a communist. I wish you had taken your six-shooter out prior to the war and tried to kill Saddam or his sons. It would have been interesting to watch you make it through all the guards and doubles. You want to make specious arguments using silly scenarios it appears.
 
Catawba said:
What oil? We passed peak oil years ago. Why do you think we have been importing foreign oil for decades? If it had been a viable option, don't you think it would have been done during the 12 years the Republican's were in charge of Congress???
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Peak oil is a myth. We have more oil in the Bakkan reserve than all of the ME right now. Why aren't we exploring that?


j-mac
 
Aunt Spiker said:
Obviously that's not the case seeing as how the cost of gas quadrupled and quintupled instead of decreasing.

If I felt that he intentionally went through all this just to secure financial profit from the oil-industry I'd be all over it.
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You have to look at the big picture. This was not about making things cheaper for us at the gas pumps. This was about militarily controlling the Middle East, the area that holds the largest and most pure oil reserves on the planet. They will be the last region on earth to run out of oil. The Neocon thinking was that whosoever controls the Middle East, controls the future.
 
Catawba said:
When Saddam was at his murderous worst, we were his allies
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When Stalin was at his worst, we were his ally. When al-Qaeda were fighting the Soviets in Afghanistan, we were supplying information and technology.

Historical perspective always helpful.
 
Catawba said:
What oil? We passed peak oil years ago. Why do you think we have been importing foreign oil for decades? If it had been a viable option, don't you think it would have been done during the 12 years the Republican's were in charge of Congress???
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I'll tell you why, because Saudi Arabia would hang any environazi that tried to stop oil drilling over there.
 
j-mac said:
Peak oil is a myth. We have more oil in the Bakkan reserve than all of the ME right now. Why aren't we exploring that?


j-mac
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if we had it, we would not be fighting Middle East wars to control that region.

We have know that for 35 years!
 
American said:
Yeah, I know you can take past events and twist them into something incoherent to support your arguments. That's very cute and we've all seen the photos. Kinda of like FDR sitting next to Stalin makes him a communist. I wish you had taken your six-shooter out prior to the war and tried to kill Saddam or his sons. It would have been interesting to watch you make it through all the guards and doubles. You want to make specious arguments using silly scenarios it appears.
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Do you deny we supported Saddam during his most murderous period when he accepted our bribes for sweet oil deals?
 
Catawba said:
if we had it, we would not be fighting Middle East wars to control that region.

We have know that for 35 years!
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We do have it, but your buds in the enviro communist movement will not let us become truly independent. Why is that do you suppose?


j-mac
 
Catawba said:
Do you deny we supported Saddam during his most murderous period when he accepted our bribes for sweet oil deals?
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I don't confirm anything, because I don't know what deals were struck. We certainly weren't going to support the Ayatollah who was supported by the Russians. Had we done so, you be questioning why we're against the Iranian regime now. So with you it's always a no win situation for the US, not unsurprisingly.
 
Reverend_Hellh0und said:
:lol: so you liked the "freedom" they had before better? :doh
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I don't get a choice in how other governments choose to govern. They were considered to be one of the most civilized countries in the Middle East, and al Qaeda did not get along with Saddam. In addition, Saddam was able to bluff Iran into staying out as well. All that ended when we invaded and occupied their country.

There are still more Iraqis being killed today, six years into our war there than there were before we invaded them.
 
Catawba said:
I don't get a choice in how other governments choose to govern. They were considered to be one of the most civilized countries in the Middle East, and al Qaeda did not get along with Saddam. In addition, Saddam was able to bluff Iran into staying out as well. All that ended when we invaded and occupied their country.

There are still more Iraqis being killed today, six years into our war there than there were before we invaded them.
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Civilized:
1.having an advanced or humane culture, society, etc.
2.polite; well-bred; refined.
3.of or pertaining to civilized people: The civilized world must fight ignorance.
4.easy to manage or control; well organized or ordered: The car is quiet and civilized, even in sharp turns.

So, it depends on which definition you were considering ... truly, definition 4 certain fits: they subjugated their people so throughly they became easy to control (for them). Yet #2 does not apply to tyrants of their caliper.
 
Catawba said:
There are still more Iraqis being killed today, six years into our war there than there were before we invaded them.
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i am going to need to see your source for this statement please.


j-mac
 
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