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Boy Scout, 6, Suspended for Fork

roguenuke said:
Should there be common sense exceptions to "zero tolerance" rules?

Boy Scout, 6, Suspended for Fork - CBS News



Is it really asking too much to take intent into consideration when these incidents occur? How about if we also look at character and personality and mood?
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The point is to remove any legal consequence from the school. So they have to do stupid stuff like this. Because if you let reasonable things, people have to examine all the different cases and see if they are reasonable and within guidelines. And if they somehow may the wrong choice, or if somehow even the reasonable choice yields bad things; their ass is on the line. So instead, they do zero tolerance. Partly because they are lazy, partly because the rest of us can't seem to do anything without suing someone else.
 
American said:
First of all, you can't be a Boy Scout at age six. He was likely a Tiger in the Cub Scouts. Secondly he brought the camping utensils knife/fork/spoon combo to eat lunch with at school. The boy usually wears a tie to school.

The principal should get fired for letting this whole thing go this far. Lack of common sense will be the downfall of America.
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But that's the whole point of zero tolerance nonsense... they take the option for common sense out of the equation and it's not the Principals fault, nor the teachers fault. It's the school district, school board and politicians who support such BS zero tolerance policies. Let's put the blame where it due and if the citizens really really wanted to overturn this, it would take very little to pressure the politicians with their jobs next election to get it done.

The issue here is, while communities may be up in arms and outraged at such a lack of common sense - they quickly forget when someone shoves Columbine or WV Tech in their face and make them choose:

Common sense + a minor mistake = 4 dead kids
OR
Zero common sense + stupid zero tolerance policy = 1 live expelled kid


That's an easy choice, and this is why as someone already pointed out, common sense is being bred out of us. We (the collective we) lack the courage to make common sense decisions, therefore, we turn into an Idiocracy of dumb people following dumb zero tolerance policies... all "for the common good".
 
Jerry said:
Like the fact that this has nothing to do with the Boy Scouts in any way?

I wonder why you chose a Boy-Scout hit-piece to make a thread on.
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I chose to share the story I came across. Reading the rules for posting in this section, I saw that I had to use the title of the news story as my title. If it would have been up to me, I would have changed it.

I have nothing against the Boy Scouts. However, I can see the point the news agency was going for in using the boy scout angle, even if I don't agree with it. The tool that the knife was on was given to him for his involvement in the boy scouts. The use of this information was to help put a little perspective in the story, biased toward the child, by the news agency.

Jerry said:
I've seen and own a few of these tools. Was the "knife" a dull utensil or was it a sharp blade?

You're still leaving out critical details.

If it was a mere dull utensil, then the school is wrong.

If it holds an edge, the school is right and he deserves the suspension.
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I don't agree. The intent of the child was important for a couple of reasons. First, the tool had multiple parts so it could be used without even pulling the knife out. From the account that is provided, the intent of the child to bring the tool was along the lines of he wanted to show off something he felt he should be proud of and/or get as much use as he could out of his newest possession. Second, intent is even considered in adult laws, so why should it be ignored on rules that we have for our children? If a person accidentally kills someone then it is a far less punishment than if the person did it on purpose. Also, the boy was described as a child who loved school, and the parents even had a character witness for him. If there was a history of violence concerning the boy or a reason for someone to suspect that he really did intend harm to someone at school, then the punishment would be justified. Another thing that matters is that in Delaware, where this occurred, it was just recently ruled that exceptions could be made to policies on knives when the punishment was expulsion.

Now the parents should have made it clear that he couldn't take the tool to school because of the knife, but even parents make mistakes. I don't see a problem with some parent/teacher/child counseling and some small punishment for the child but 45 days in reform school is too harsh. And to help prevent cases like this from occurring in the future, the school could give students, especially younger students, more clarification on what things would be considered weapons, including those that a child might bring in for some innocent reason. Letters to parents detailing this might be good too.

Considering the state has made exceptions in other cases where intent was taken into consideration, it shouldn't be too much to ask that an exception be made in this case.
 
Ikari said:
The point is to remove any legal consequence from the school. So they have to do stupid stuff like this. Because if you let reasonable things, people have to examine all the different cases and see if they are reasonable and within guidelines. And if they somehow may the wrong choice, or if somehow even the reasonable choice yields bad things; their ass is on the line. So instead, they do zero tolerance. Partly because they are lazy, partly because the rest of us can't seem to do anything without suing someone else.
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Thank You!

This is idiocy on the schools part, but society as a whole is as much to blame as the school itself. Our sue happy, blame happy, "its everyone elses fault except mine" society is what caused this. We've became a society where if individuals make mistakes they can say sorry and all will be forgiven, but if groups...schools, corporations, etc...make a mistake then they must be taken for all their worth. The schools try to do things by "common sense" and they are examined with a fine tooth comb, every action taken is called into consideration, and one time little timmy's mom thinks the schools been oh so unreasonable with him and has damaged her poor little timmy so much that she needs to sue them. So over time instead of leaving it up to the teachers or principles to use common sense in each individual situation you foster a culture where it is far less troublesome on the part of the school to take any kind of reasoning out of the equation and make it a simple "yes or no" type of thing.

Those kinds of policies in schools are absolutely idiotic. But society as a whole is greatly at fault for those policies to have come into being in the first place.
 
Ockham said:
But that's the whole point of zero tolerance nonsense... they take the option for common sense out of the equation and it's not the Principals fault, nor the teachers fault. It's the school district, school board and politicians who support such BS zero tolerance policies. Let's put the blame where it due and if the citizens really really wanted to overturn this, it would take very little to pressure the politicians with their jobs next election to get it done.

The issue here is, while communities may be up in arms and outraged at such a lack of common sense - they quickly forget when someone shoves Columbine or WV Tech in their face and make them choose:

Common sense + a minor mistake = 4 dead kids
OR
Zero common sense + stupid zero tolerance policy = 1 live expelled kid


That's an easy choice, and this is why as someone already pointed out, common sense is being bred out of us. We (the collective we) lack the courage to make common sense decisions, therefore, we turn into an Idiocracy of dumb people following dumb zero tolerance policies... all "for the common good".
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I cannot believe that a principal has zero discretion. These guys make well in excess of $100K, and they run the school. It's hard to believe that there is no case by case evaluation.
 
roguenuke said:
I don't agree. The intent of the child was important for a couple of reasons.
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It's not about why this one particular child brought a knife to school. It's not about what this one particular child would or would not do with a knife.

Its about how children behave when a knife is introduced into that environment. Other children can take the knife away and do things the first child would never have don, like deface property and harm others.

IMO 45 days is excessive, but a suspension is in order if the "knife" holds an edge.

If the "knife" is as dull as a butter knife, good only for spreading jelly, then the school should be sued to alter the rule.
 
Last edited:
6-Year-Old Scout Suspended for Bringing Knife-Fork-Spoon Utensil to School - Local News | News Articles | National News | US News - FOXNews.com

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/12/education/12discipline.html

discipline600.jpg


Look at the little killer.
 
Jerry said:
It's not about why this one particular child brought a knife to school. It's not about what this one particular child would or would not do with a knife.

Its about how children behave when a knife is introduced into that environment. Other children can take the knife away and do things the first child would never have don, like deface property and harm others.

IMO 45 days is excessive, but a suspension is in order if the "knife" holds an edge.

If the "knife" is as dull as a butter knife, good only for spreading jelly, then the school should be sued to alter the rule.
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A butterknife can be made to hold an edge.
 
The thing I don't get....do these kids have a cafeteria at school and do they have utensils?
 
American said:
6-Year-Old Scout Suspended for Bringing Knife-Fork-Spoon Utensil to School - Local News | News Articles | National News | US News - FOXNews.com

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/12/education/12discipline.html

discipline600.jpg


Look at the little killer.
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I especially like this part:
Spurred in part by the Columbine and Virginia Tech shootings, many school districts around the country adopted zero-tolerance policies on the possession of weapons on school grounds. More recently, there has been growing debate over whether the policies have gone too far.
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Yes, yes, because some teens with clinicly diagnosed mental disorders on mind-altering medications drafted and executed a detailed act of domestic terrorism involving firearms and explosives, we need to severely punish normal 1st graders for the slightest infraction of a technicality.
 
First Grader Suspended Over Camping Utensil

Here's the video from the Today Show. Another example of the absurdity of our culture today, with its lack of common sense, and one-size fits all approach.

Watch the video, this kid is bright and adorable. The school district wants to send him to reform school!

Today Show Video Player
 
Jerry said:
But did this butter knife actually have an edge when it was school ground?
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I think he sharpened it in the bathroom while having a smoke.
 
Re: First Grader Suspended Over Camping Utensil

MyOwnDrum said:
Here's the video from the Today Show. Another example of the absurdity of our culture today, with its lack of common sense, and one-size fits all approach.

Watch the video, this kid is bright and adorable. The school district wants to send him to reform school!

Today Show Video Player
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Absolute law has no place in a free society.

France put people in prison for stealing a loaf of bread to feed their family.
We kick a child out of school for carrying a fork to school.

The worst that should have happened is the child should have been reminded it is not ok to bring a sharp object to school, even a fork. If it happened again, a simple call to the parents would suffice.

I hope the public outcry against this deplorable act sends those kind of absolute rules into memory where they should be and the ones that made the absolute rule absolute end up with an absolute fate of being mortally embarrassed for being thugs.

Jim
 
Moderator's Warning:
Threads merged
 
Spoon-Wielding Boy Scout Goes Back to School
District’s zero-tolerance policy on weapons amended for young students

Six-year-old Zachary Christie likes to eat his pudding with his favorite spoon, so he brought it to school with him. But it cost him -- being branded a troublemaker and exiled from his elementary school because of it.

The Cub Scout's favorite spoon happens to be attached to a knife and fork, in a folding Swiss-Army type camping utensil. Despite the pudding purpose, he was suspended and ordered to spend 45 days in an alternative school for troublemakers. Newark, Del.'s Christina School District has a zero-tolerance policy with weapons.

After Zachary’s family spread the word of the unjust decision through the “Help Zachary” Web site, outrage spread across the country. This prompted the Christina School Board to call a meeting Tuesday night, when they revisited the zero-tolerance policy.

“I had absolutely no idea this was gonna’ happen,” Zachary told the TODAY Show Tuesday. “I wasn’t thinking about this. I was thinking about having lunch with it!”
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w00t :mrgreen:
 
Jerry said:
w00t :mrgreen:
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Thank Goodness he's back in school, but they still have a draconian policy. Whoever said administrators need flexibility was right.
 
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