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The dead end kids: Young, unemployed and facing tough future

Agnapostate said:
It's been suggested to me via PM that I challenge you to a True Debate so that I could tear you to pieces definitively. I'd do it if we still had them on the condition that you'd no longer interrupt threads with off-topic babbling after I inevitably beat you. :2wave:
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you mean the same way burke beat dejacque?
 
you're debating yourself just fine

i'm the only one around here who even ATTEMPTS to use your terminology

besides, you just said you weren't going to take the advice offered via (LOL!) pm

it sounds like anyone who doesn't SAY what you SAY is off topic, anyway
 
Scorpion89 said:
Hmmm I guess onyl CC got it the main reason we don't have any good enter-level jobs are because over the oast 35+ Year the United States has let Company shut up and move the factories either to Central/South America,India,China or the Far East then send the product back tot eh United States mean while we now have ageneration of Youth who can't get a friggen good paying job and Congress and some of you can't understand why.

Hence why I've been screaming for many year to put 100% taffifs on Textile Products/Candies/Farm Tractors etc. ect. thius would force these company's to 1 Bring back the Jobs and 2 Put Americans back to Work.
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Precisely! The United States government has passed the right laws to drive industries from our country.
 
Orius said:
We've created a generation where university degrees are the status quo, but they don't really do much in the grand scheme. Degrees are the new high school diploma. People want experience, but companies won't hire you if you don't have it. Yet, you can't get experience if you aren't hired. For young people it's a horrendous catch 22.
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In the US, this is false; according to the recent 2008 census data only 29% of all adults 25 and older had a four year degree. The good news is that 87% at least graduated from high school; however, the notion that they received an education worthy of helping them in the real world is subject to much debate.

So stating that university degrees are the new status quo is not supported by the facts.

The catch 22 in the last decade has been that Government efforts to falsely elevate the minimum wage laws and legislation which discourage job creation for those at the entry level has served to make finding work much harder.

But the truth is that the work is out there for those leaving high school and those working part time while attending college; it’s just not what these spoiled lazy narcissistic teens and young adults want to do.

US Census Press Releases

Orius said:
Also, the trades industry is severely lacking in North America. When the babyboomers all go into retirement, there will be few to do the plumbing, electricity, mechanics, etc. Those are all potentially lucrative careers and the requirements for that kind of education are not as high. The problem is that so little emphasis is placed on the trades as potential careers in high school that people look down upon them. They are all taught to 'aim high' and go for degrees to become paper pushers in desk jobs.
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Do you have any data that would support such a contention? The data I have supplied suggests that contrary to your OPINION, only 29% of adults in the US have a college degree.

http://www.census.gov/prod/2003pubs/c2kbr-25.pdf

Orius said:
We don't need more paper pushers, we need people with hands on skills.
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We need whatever the market demands and that demand will determine the training and education people will seek to fill that demand. Just arbitrarily stating that we don’t need paper pushers is simplistic and lacking in credible data to support such assertions.

Some additional interesting data on “idle” youth in the US:

http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/ioindex/Profile-Idle-Youth-PAA08.ppt#279,24,Summary
 
Orius said:
In Vancouver recently I met a guy who is 23 and just graduated with his degree in engineering. No one will hire him because he doesn't have at least 4 years experience, so now he works in a coffee shop. We've created a generation where university degrees are the status quo, but they don't really do much in the grand scheme. Degrees are the new high school diploma. People want experience, but companies won't hire you if you don't have it. Yet, you can't get experience if you aren't hired. For young people it's a horrendous catch 22.

Also, the trades industry is severely lacking in North America. When the babyboomers all go into retirement, there will be few to do the plumbing, electricity, mechanics, etc. Those are all potentially lucrative careers and the requirements for that kind of education are not as high. The problem is that so little emphasis is placed on the trades as potential careers in high school that people look down upon them. They are all taught to 'aim high' and go for degrees to become paper pushers in desk jobs.

We don't need more paper pushers, we need people with hands on skills.
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Being a SR SysAdmin.. and starting off in this skillset... at 19 I was working wendy's and moonlighting at a place as a junior.

I got **** on for the first few years of my career... and never expected to walk into a place just after I got out of college making anything more than I did.

The problem with this generation I see is.. they won't do what's necessary to get it done. They don't want to work fast food, they don't want to work ****ty jobs to further themselves.. they want the good job and the corner office now.


apdst said:
Life's tough, the world is cruel, a job's not going to come knocking on your door, you gotta get out and eat **** for a few years 'fore the good jobs showup on the horizon, it's called paying your dues, you have to go out and get what's your's...welcome to the real world.
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^^ Thank you, took the words out of my mouth.
 
Quote:Originally Posted by Scorpion89
Jeeze I wonder of folks might think about this allof those Good Paying Factory Jobs that have been sent out of North America wonder if that has anything to do with this hmmmm naya that wouldn't have anything to do with good enter level paying jobs.
CaptainCourtesy said:
Someone gets it. Good post.
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I am curious what data supports this assertion? I seriously doubt that many new graduates just leaving school sought out factory jobs and if they did, that they were paid well.

The first factory job I ever took was a machinist job at age 21 where I was required to pay dues to the Machinist Union. I didn't make a LOT of money and in order to make more money I had to work for many years getting union contract hourly nickel increases every 6 months.

It was this job that compelled me to return to college and get a degree so I could work in a field that paid a LOT more and didn't have to work under repressive Union work rules and a depressing non-challenging factory environment.

Factory jobs, in my opinion and based on REALITY, are a job of LAST resort for those who either have no desire to learn a higher skilled trade, have no choice based on geography and are unwilling to move, or those who have only known that type of work (West Virginia coal mining for example).

Factory work is mundane repetitive work that dulls the brain and I have yet to find people with a modicum of intelligence that actually LOVED this type of work or environment other than the possible fact that in areas like Detroit they made above market wages and benefits thanks to Union contracts that have predictably bankrupted the companies that agreed to them.
 
The Prof said:
i'm a veteran (oh, boy, am i) public school teacher

too many kids wear signs on their foreheads, blaring in neon---work is for other people but i'm as entitled as anyone to air conditioning because, you don't understand, it's hot
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I am curious with your education and background, because in many cases we are in agreement, why you post the way you do. Trying to read your posts and discern the content requires a LOT of effort.

If you are a highly educated educator, why do you post in a fashion that makes many of your points difficult to comprehend (formatting and grammar) and/or so painful to read that one glosses over your posts rather than attempt to discern what is contained in them.

I am not suggesting you are not telling the truth here about your background, just trying to understand why you post the way you do and offer some constructive criticisms so that perhaps you can improve on your style here. :doh
 
stalin_was_a_nice_being said:
This doesn't surprise me one bit. Many companies want the experience but they just don't want to be the ones who give it. And these so called older more experienced gentlemen and women who don't want to hire a college graduate because he or she has no work experience, if they were any good, then why have so many run their companies into the ground only to ask for the government to bail them out later? What is going on, is that the well connected are saving the good paying jobs for friends of friends or the children of friends or his or her own children.
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Nonfactual part of the post;

stalin_was_a_nice_being said:
The direction this country is heading is ridiculous.
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Factual portion of the post and only because of the current Administration and a congress infested by and run by buffoons.
 
I finally get a hot topic thread, and what do i go and do
get a 2 day suspension:doh
 
Scorpion89 said:
Hmmm I guess onyl CC got it the main reason we don't have any good enter-level jobs are because over the oast 35+ Year the United States has let Company shut up and move the factories either to Central/South America,India,China or the Far East then send the product back tot eh United States mean while we now have ageneration of Youth who can't get a friggen good paying job and Congress and some of you can't understand why.
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There are no facts to support this assertion; but if you have some I would love to see it. Since when were factory jobs the best option for high school and college grads?

Scorpion89 said:
Hence why I've been screaming for many year to put 100% taffifs on Textile Products/Candies/Farm Tractors etc. ect. thius would force these company's to 1 Bring back the Jobs and 2 Put Americans back to Work.
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The ONLY thing this type of misguided policy would do is create LESS jobs and opportunity and INCREASE the costs to the American consumer greatly.

This kind of misguided policy will only make it more difficult for those trying to make ends meet.

I would like one credible example where tariffs have benefited the economy and American consumer? Remember the steel tariffs? How did they work for the steel industry in this country?

The single biggest destroyer of factory jobs in this country has been the UNIONS who are infested with an uninformed thug "communist-like" leadership that believes that its only interest is finding ways to squeeze the profits of the companies so that they can pad their budgets, their salaries and enforce their rules with BAs in $500 dollar suits; NOT the competition.

Unions work to increase membership with work rules that reduce productivity, work to minimize innovations and attempt to force companies into higher than market wages and benefits which make it extremely difficult to compete in a global market with little regard towards the long term effects this will have on the company’s future.

The single largest UNION working in America today is the SEIU; they infest ALL Government and as a result, drive up the cost of Government that the taxpayers of this country no longer can afford to pay.
 
The Prof said:
52.2

wow

just wow

right or wrong, fair or no, kiss the youth vote goodbye, president obama

elections in america are won and lost on ENTHUSIASM

an entire generation, in contraposition, is dispirited, despondent, depressed, despairing

the precise opposite of hope

one can only commiserate

and pray
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I sincerely hope that this poorly worded and structured post is not implying that this is all Obama's fault...
 
Scorpion89 said:
Hmmm I guess onyl CC got it the main reason we don't have any good enter-level jobs are because over the oast 35+ Year the United States has let Company shut up and move the factories either to Central/South America,India,China or the Far East then send the product back tot eh United States mean while we now have ageneration of Youth who can't get a friggen good paying job and Congress and some of you can't understand why.

Hence why I've been screaming for many year to put 100% taffifs on Textile Products/Candies/Farm Tractors etc. ect. thius would force these company's to 1 Bring back the Jobs and 2 Put Americans back to Work.
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The thing is that jobs always move. 150 years ago, our primary export was raw materials, not manufactured goods. After/during the industrial revolution, as industry grew in the U.S., the labor patterns shifted into factory jobs/mass production. In the past 30 years, they have shifted again as emerging nations, who used to offer only raw materials, have increasingly become mass producers. The primary export we have to offer these days, in America, is our technology and innovation, something we should have in spades, except our educational system is failing many of our young people and economically crippling them.
 
EgoffTib said:
I sincerely hope that this poorly worded and structured post is not implying that this is all Obama's fault...
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I took it as, unhappy, unemployed ppl vote out the encumbent, rightly or wrongly
 
Ethereal said:
I think students should have more flexible curriculums and graduation standards. We should place emphasis on identifying and maximizing a student's strengths, and directing them towards a specialized education instead of trying to apply a one-sized fits all approach to a diverse body of individuals.

Not everyone needs to know how to factor a polynomial or balance a chemical equation. Maybe we should just teach them how to install a sink or replace a engine piston instead.
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I find these remarks stunning. High School wasn't intended to be a trade school and the notion that we can identify what interests a high school student or identify their strengths and direct them to an appropriate trade looks more like Communism than free market.

The problems with our schools these days is that they are now graduating students who have about a 6th grade reading and math level, ZERO knowledge of economics and most couldn't describe how our Government works or where Texas is on a map. They attempt to do what you are suggesting, adjusting the curriculum for the lowest common denominator to ensure that they will not have to deal with failing students after hours or next semester.

I have yet to see a class size that would permit a teacher to actually care about those students who require their attention and/or a teacher who was willing to spend the additional after hours necessary to ensure that students LEARN and can PASS the subject matter.

I have to BEG teachers to contact me and talk about my kids needs and post their progress online so that I can see that they are getting the required work done in a timely manner.

Too often, parents find out AFTER the fact that their kids are failing a subject and not turning in the required work. Yes there are parents who are not doing their part, but it starts with timely information FROM the school about their progress, class sizes that are consistent with a learning environment and teachers who actually want to teach and not just get a paycheck.

This nation has failed miserably in public education and then when parents demand the option to get their tax money back and ability to send their children to schools that may actually teach their kids they are met with obfuscation, roadblocks and politicians who declare that vouchers are NOT an option.

In my opinion, the school systems in the US are infested with the same UNION mentality that are destroying our manufacturing industries and having the same results.
 
Ethereal said:
Yea, I hear the engineering guys are getting hit pretty hard. My advice would be to work for free in your spare time. You'll pick up experience and if a spot opens you'll be the most likely person to get it. It's tough, but that's the best way in for young people in certain proffessions.
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This is a surprise to me, as I thought engineering was the one area where they still desperately needed people. I know that my dad's plant upstate was always having a hard time finding fresh college grads.

I think students should have more flexible curriculums and graduation standards. We should place emphasis on identifying and maximizing a student's strengths, and directing them towards a specialized education instead of trying to apply a one-sized fits all approach to a diverse body of individuals.

Not everyone needs to know how to factor a polynomial or balance a chemical equation. Maybe we should just teach them how to install a sink or replace a engine piston instead.
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Exactly right.

Truth Detector said:
In the US, this is false; according to the recent 2008 census data only 29% of all adults 25 and older had a four year degree. The good news is that 87% at least graduated from high school; however, the notion that they received an education worthy of helping them in the real world is subject to much debate.
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This number is drastically skewed by the old people included in "25 and older" and by the fact that it only looks at 4 year degrees. If you just look at people going to school nowadays, it's much higher.

In October 2008, 68.6 percent of 2008 high school graduates were enrolled in colleges or universities, according to data released today by
the Bureau of Labor Statistics of the U.S. Department of Labor.
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College Enrollment and Work Activity of 2008 High School Graduates

Among high school graduates, it really is the norm to attend college.
 
Truth Detector said:
I find these remarks stunning. High School wasn't intended to be a trade school and the notion that we can identify what interests a high school student or identify their strengths and direct them to an appropriate trade looks more like Communism than free market.
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I never suggested that we turn high-schools into trade schools, nor did I imply that students and parents wouldn't ultimately decide what classes or trades they want to take.

I simply want to afford students and parents more options. I don't think students should have mandatory math/science classes in high-school; some people just can't do it; more importantly, 99% of people never use it later on in life.

The problems with our schools these days is that they are now graduating students who have about a 6th grade reading and math level, ZERO knowledge of economics and most couldn't describe how our Government works or where Texas is on a map. They attempt to do what you are suggesting, adjusting the curriculum for the lowest common denominator to ensure that they will not have to deal with failing students after hours or next semester.
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These are basic concepts that should be solidified by the time a student leaves eighth grade. I firmly believe that all students should have a solid understanding of the basics, but nobody NEEDS to take high-school geometry or chemistry. Measure their aptitude, and allow them to take more specialized classes instead of forcing them to fail at classes they don't want or need.

I have yet to see a class size that would permit a teacher to actually care about those students who require their attention and/or a teacher who was willing to spend the additional after hours necessary to ensure that students LEARN and can PASS the subject matter.

I have to BEG teachers to contact me and talk about my kids needs and post their progress online so that I can see that they are getting the required work done in a timely manner.

Too often, parents find out AFTER the fact that their kids are failing a subject and not turning in the required work. Yes there are parents who are not doing their part, but it starts with timely information FROM the school about their progress, class sizes that are consistent with a learning environment and teachers who actually want to teach and not just get a paycheck.

This nation has failed miserably in public education and then when parents demand the option to get their tax money back and ability to send their children to schools that may actually teach their kids they are met with obfuscation, roadblocks and politicians who declare that vouchers are NOT an option.

In my opinion, the school systems in the US are infested with the same UNION mentality that are destroying our manufacturing industries and having the same results.
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I agree. That's why I'm advocating a more "liberal" approach to education. I think the rigidity of our education system literally forces certain students into failure and mediocrity.
 
RightinNYC said:
This is a surprise to me, as I thought engineering was the one area where they still desperately needed people. I know that my dad's plant upstate was always having a hard time finding fresh college grads.
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You're probably right. I've just heard some stories about engineers working in coffee shops or going overseas in order to find work. Anecdotal stuff.
 
Truth Detector said:
I find these remarks stunning. High School wasn't intended to be a trade school and the notion that we can identify what interests a high school student or identify their strengths and direct them to an appropriate trade looks more like Communism than free market.
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At my high school, there was a program for students grades 9-12 who didn't like regular school and wanted to practice a trade. They spent half the day at school with us, getting the basics, and the second half at another facility where they took more technical classes. I think it was a great idea, and I'm not sure how that's communism.
 
Want to know whats wrong with this country? Republicans' they have ruined this country forever. And this all republican crap, "if you can't get a job, join the military for a paycheck" is bs. The military is not a solution, and never will be. The government needs to downsize, republicans and democrats are responsible for the size of the government. Its so big it has ruined this country and made it impossible to live in. I'd leave, trust me, I will once I am done with school. The size of the government doesn't make this country safer, it makes it more dangerous but republicans & democrats will never understand that. But I see what is wrong with people in this thread, both sides like to point the finger at the opposite side. Try working together, using your heads everynow and then doesn't hurt.
And I have been one of those kids who has been working since 12. Sine 12 I have been mowing lawn, shoveling snow, plumbing, etc.
 
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