California's unemployment rate hits 12.2% in August

TOJ said:

Just wondering, would you make that same argument concerning the USA minimum wage?

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Pretty much. One benefit of removing the minimum wage (within reason) is that it gets rid of industries that we suck at even faster. When the going wage for a job is really low, people tend not to go for that job, thus removing the amount of labor demand. Eventually such an industry will decrease to the point where so little demand drives up wages necessary to get people to do that job. An equilibrium if you will.

Damn, we sure screwed up the 'quotes' on those. :doh

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obvious Child said:

Can you show that illegals compete with Americans for jobs that Americans are trying to get and in industries that serve as engines of growth?

Last I checked, there aren't illegals taking programming jobs away from Americans, but I could be wrong. Does Google hire lots of illegals?

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Why must he prove this? Are you saying it's okay to break the law as long as no one is hurt?

American said:

Why must he prove this?

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There are a few posters subscribing to the premise that illegal workers impact unemployment in a negative manner. To do so would essentially say that illegal workers in this country are a cause of negative GDP, as there is an overwhelming causation between negative GDP and increased unemployment.

Are you saying it's okay to break the law as long as no one is hurt?

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And that is the the issue. Maybe they are breaking the law, but rest assured illegal workers are not contributing to negative unemployment (AKA negative growth). Unless of course someone can prove it. Do you feel up to the task?

Goldenboy219 said:

There are a few posters subscribing to the premise that illegal workers impact unemployment in a negative manner. To do so would essentially say that illegal workers in this country are a cause of negative GDP, as there is an overwhelming causation between negative GDP and increased unemployment.

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Well, no; unemployment is a rate. It doesn't have to be about negative GDP. An area may not have enough jobs for all of the immigrants, so they're unemployed, thus driving unemployment rates up.

Harshaw said:

Well, no; unemployment is a rate. It doesn't have to be about negative GDP. An area may not have enough jobs for all of the immigrants, so they're unemployed, thus driving unemployment rates up.

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Increased unemployment causes decreases in GDP, or they are inversely related. You have to keep this in mind when considering unemployment (Okun's Law) . The premise they are going by is if there were no illegal aliens working in California, the unemployment rate would be lower.

But Okun's law isn't a "law"; it's just an observed relationship.

If you increase the worker pool without increasing the number of jobs, unemployment goes up regardless of the GDP.

Harshaw said:

But Okun's law isn't a "law"; it's just an observed relationship.

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Does it not apply here? If not then how so?

If you increase the worker pool without increasing the number of jobs, unemployment goes up regardless of the GDP.

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Hmmmmm.... Unemployment is the rate of which those who are actively seeking employment, within a specific time frame, cannot for some reason or another find it.

With that in mind, what exactly is the worker pool? Is it those who are seeking employment and cannot find any, or is it those currently employed? The difference matters immensely. Of course, if the "pool" is those seeking employment and cannot find any, then of course unemployment is naturally higher. But within the perimeter of this discussion, it was the fact that illegal aliens are employed which is the perceived cause of higher unemployment.

In fact, i would suppose that this group of people would be in favor of illegal aliens not able to find a job, and not the other way around. Do you think this increases or decreases employment?

The "worker pool" is the total number of people who want jobs, including those who have jobs. That is what I meant by it.

apdst said:

I wonder how they're feeling about all that jobless recovery.

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As a resident of the great Liberal state of California, I can tell you it sucks. I cannot remember a time when the job situation was this bad in California.

Suffice it to say, the Libruls running our State have taken up the typical liberal prescription of raising taxes and making business here in the state even more expensive; they're geniuses.

:doh

Harshaw said:

The "worker pool" is the total number of people who want jobs, including those who have jobs. That is what I meant by it.

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In the two generic identities, where the pool of labor is represented by those who are employed (x), and those who are not employed and actively seeking employment , and the rate of unemployment as the ratio of over (P) multiplied by 100 to give us percentage.

P= (x)+ ; U= (y/P)(100), therefore in the case of increased unemployment, x would have to either be decreasing more so than y is increasing, or y would have to be increasing more so than x.

In your original statement, you were inferring that the number of employed workers (x) were to be held constant and the pool of workers increased (sum of x and y) was to increase. Holding all else constant, the only way for unemployment to increase was for (the people who cannot find a job) to increase.

But.... Is this argument in regards to illegal aliens entering the workforce? Lets add some numbers. Assume the total pool before illegal employees equals 100, where x=95 and y=5. We have the rate of unemployment to be 5%. Now assume that 5 illegal workers join the workforce.

If they consist if the y portion, those trying to find employment but cannot, the rate becomes 10/105 or 9.5%. This signifies that 5 illegal workers have entered the workforce (P) but could not find employment. But again, this is not the argument. The argument is this: when illegal workers get jobs, it decreases employment (or increases unemployment).

Let us assume those 5 illegal’s find employment. You have a new ratio, y=5 as the number of people seeking but not finding has stayed the same, and P= (95+5)+5=105; (5/105)(100)= 4.76%. This negates the assumption made that when illegal immigrants find employment, the rate of unemployment increases. For it to hold true, the 5 people that were working out of the original 95 would have to be fired, thereby increasing by 5, and replaced with illegal workers (outside the pool) of which nobody has discussed so far (mind boggling).

With this in mind, what jobs do illegal aliens tend to flock to, and as a result American workers are being fired/replaced?

Might these jobs be things that 99.99999% of American's not be interested in doing? :rofl

I don't think measuring unemployment and how illegals affect it is this cut and dry.

American said:

I don't think measuring unemployment and how illegals affect it is this cut and dry.

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Well, since you are on the subject, how do you propose we analyze the impact of illegal immigrant's have on unemployment statistics? Surprisingly, i doubt a single sentence will be adequate.

Goldenboy219 said:

But again, this is not the argument. The argument is this: when illegal workers get jobs, it decreases employment (or increases unemployment).

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If that is the argument, then I agree. I'm only saying that increased numbers of people looking for work when there's a static number of jobs increases unemployment regardless of GDP.

With this in mind, what jobs do illegal aliens tend to flock to, and as a result American workers are being fired/replaced?

Might these jobs be things that 99.99999% of American's not be interested in doing? :rofl

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I always thought that was a stupid characterization of things.

Goldenboy219 said:

Well, since you are on the subject, how do you propose we analyze the impact of illegal immigrant's have on unemployment statistics? Surprisingly, i doubt a single sentence will be adequate.

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I don't propose we analyze it at all. I propose we enforce the laws against people entering out country illegally, instead of making excuses for them using statistics.

American said:

Why must he prove this?

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Why must we learn proper English? Do you not understand the concept of context? Oh wait. I know the answer to that. His argument, if you actually bothered to read anything for once in your life, is that illegals take away jobs in industries that are engines of growth. Last I checked, food packing ain't one of those.

Are you saying it's okay to break the law as long as no one is hurt?

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You know, if you actually read posts instead of just assuming whatever you wanted to, you wouldn't ask truly asinine questions like that.