• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

US penalizes Chinese tires, infuriating Beijing

John Deere has NOT shut down all of it's American plants. There are still plants in Wisconsin, Illinois, and Iowa that I know of and I'm sure there are others.
So the federal govt missed a couple, they'll take care of that soon enough. :mrgreen: This is all part of our new Kyoto-like process to become greener. Put all factories in China and puff all the polution over there.
 
Last edited:
Corporate tax? Payroll tax? EPA? Lawsuits because of the Civil Rights Act? ADA?

We make this country a very unfriendly business environment.

Is market failure a myth? If so, can you prove it?
 
John Deere has NOT shut down all of it's American plants. There are still plants in Wisconsin, Illinois, and Iowa that I know of and I'm sure there are others.

Deere still has US based operations and manufacturing, but have increased the percentage of imported products used in their product for years, and have become part of the problem as the loss to other US based manufacturing concerns due to switching to imported parts has eliminated or reduced the income of the workers at those other plants supplying Deere who were previous consumers of the products made by those buying Deere products.

What so many seem to fail to acknowledge is that there is a domino effect to all these increases in imports, and when a single manufacturer either moves their plants overseas or changes to an imported product supplier the negative results jolt much more deeply than the immediate players.

Changing something as simple as going with an import hardware product has ongoing effects, and other larger changes like plant closures go so deeply that they have caused the need for creation of entire new industries and jobs to replace them.

The problem with the many replacement industries and jobs are that they are greatly government based or funded, or low paying positions.

Everything from fast food, and credit cards, and insurance to education and banking have picked up some of the slack from jobs lost in manufacturing, but the majority of the positions do not have the same levels of income and have lead to a reduced amount of wealth, quality of life, and so many others.

Sure all the new or replacement industries have their members who have seen large incomes and some even larger than previously possible in the manufacturing sector, but even these increases have come at a cost, and that cost is carried on the backs of the workers.

Just the loss of union membership of the replacements have allowed workers to see reductions, and combine this with labor changes made by members or both parties supporting employers over the years and some have even made the point of comparing many of these workers to modern day slave labor or free slaves etc.

Not that I fully buy into the whole free slave idea, but I can see why or how some could come up with it. When you consider that ultimately the purpose of workers in general is to perform the work needed to produce the various products that are offered by the employer to create a profit it is somewhat easier to realize that when there are more workers than work by an ever increasing margin the company or employer gains a large advantage which it can use to manipulate its labor costs.

So sure Deere and many others who were once US power houses in manufacturing are still alive, and doing business in the US, but the game has changed and the value of it all is still on the decline.
 
Deere still has US based operations and manufacturing, but have increased the percentage of imported products used in their product for years, and have become part of the problem as the loss to other US based manufacturing concerns due to switching to imported parts has eliminated or reduced the income of the workers at those other plants supplying Deere who were previous consumers of the products made by those buying Deere products.

Workers in plants buy a tiny portion of Deere's products. Farmers and construction companies are their main customers.

As others have said, the cost of doing business here is out of control. You don't see manufacturing leaving the U.S. and moving to Sweden or Germany. The reason is that they have onerous business requirements there that are as bad or worse than those in the U.S. No, businesses go where they are welcome and provide the best shareholder return.

Even within the U.S., companies move from states that are too restrictive like California, to states that are business friendly.
 
Now China is planning to retaliate against the United States by slapping higher tariffs on our chicken and auto parts. What a shock. What were you guys saying about saving American jobs again? :roll:

What exactly is the point?

With the extreme imbalance in trade right now I doubt there is little they can do of any consequence in retaliation other than start WW3.

Remember it was our politicians that made all the promises to the Chinese government to persuade them to back all the financial needs of spending more than you bring in for decades, and it was not the deals or fault of the American worker, and I believe most could give a rats ass on any resulting power play by the Chinese and even welcome the change it would bring.

Just consider all the common household names that would disappear like Walmart, Black and Decker, and so many others who have put all the eggs into the cheap import basket if the supply of cheap Chinese products dried up all at once.

Cant say I would be worried about the loss of all those low paying jobs with some of the worst bene's out there when they even offer them.

Maybe we need to consider having our own town hall meetings as this is getting to be much to type out, and it just is not possible to make all the needed points without writing a damn novel.
 
What exactly is the point?

With the extreme imbalance in trade right now I doubt there is little they can do of any consequence in retaliation other than start WW3.

Remember it was our politicians that made all the promises to the Chinese government to persuade them to back all the financial needs of spending more than you bring in for decades, and it was not the deals or fault of the American worker, and I believe most could give a rats ass on any resulting power play by the Chinese and even welcome the change it would bring.

Just consider all the common household names that would disappear like Walmart, Black and Decker, and so many others who have put all the eggs into the cheap import basket if the supply of cheap Chinese products dried up all at once.

Cant say I would be worried about the loss of all those low paying jobs with some of the worst bene's out there when they even offer them.

Maybe we need to consider having our own town hall meetings as this is getting to be much to type out, and it just is not possible to make all the needed points without writing a damn novel.

Before you march off to your local town hall, consider the facts. It could save you from yourself. Ricardian Model
 
Very reminiscent of the Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act. Following in the footsteps of Hoover is a bad policy move IMHO.

Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act

Ya, I figured that maybe Obama could've learned a lesson from Bush. Anyone remember when Bush implemented those steel tariffs in the first year of his administration against the advice of all his economic advisers, then had to embarrassingly remove them a few years later when it became obvious that his advisers were correct?

Obama would do well to heed that lesson, rather than making exactly the same mistake again.
 
^^When have government officials ever taken an economic lessons? This country actually tried price controls, that should tell you something.
 
Ya, I figured that maybe Obama could've learned a lesson from Bush. Anyone remember when Bush implemented those steel tariffs in the first year of his administration against the advice of all his economic advisers, then had to embarrassingly remove them a few years later when it became obvious that his advisers were correct?

Obama would do well to heed that lesson, rather than making exactly the same mistake again.

It appears that Obama would rather take advice from union leaders than from his economic advisers.
 
John Deere has NOT shut down all of it's American plants. There are still plants in Wisconsin, Illinois, and Iowa that I know of and I'm sure there are others.

I never said that they shut down all of there plants I stated that they shut down three of them and moved the Jobs out of the United States and then had those Tractors sent back tot he USA. Please try to read my all of my post. :2wave:
 
What a sad thread.

Is there anything that Obama can do where he will not be attacked from the right?

Hell! They'll even take the Communist Chinese side of the issue if it will score them poltical points.

Nevermind this particular tariff is fully legal under international trade rules when a country is being flooded with cheap imports.

When are you white middle aged, midlle class men going to start sticking up for yourself and your kids?
 
Last edited:
What a sad thread.

Is there anything that Obama can do where he will not be attacked from the right?

Hell! They'll even take the Communist Chinese side of the issue if it will score them poltical points.

Nevermind this particular tariff is fully legal under international trade rules when a country is being flooded with cheap imports.

When are you white middle aged, midlle class men going to start sticking up for yourself and your kids?

It isn't a question of it being legal. It's a question of it being a good idea...which it absolutely is not.
 
What a sad thread.

Is there anything that Obama can do where he will not be attacked from the right?

I applaud Obama on this and hope its a start.

Hell! They'll even take the Communist Chinese side of the issue if it will score them poltical points.


That part does crack me up up those who claim to be patriotic American. Some of these people on this thread I understand because they are globalist, globalist do not give a **** about the future or sovereignty of their country nor could they care less that American jobs are being outsourced.


When are you white middle aged, midlle class men going to start sticking up for yourself and your kids?

Globalist scum do not care about things like that.
 
Before you march off to your local town hall, consider the facts. It could save you from yourself. Ricardian Model

Thanks for the info on the Ricardian Model :roll: but that was not where I was intending to be going etc. Sorry if my reference to dumping duties, or difference in labor costs between first and third world nations misled etc.

Since I am not debating the logic, or theory of any previous trade beliefs, but rather am addressing the negative effects that I have been able to see personally and know well etc I am going to stick with that of which I am more knowledgeable of.

One thing that is obvious is the serious negative effects of so many years of trade imbalance that go right down to the core of our system and people.

Consider a ride through the most successful industrial states of the past century and tell everyone what you think of what you find.

Let us know your thoughts on the decaying buildings and infrastructure, resulting ranks of homeless those on government services, and all the other related negative results of our our of control imports.

I have not witnessed it directly but I understand that even the areas where many companies had originally moved production to in order to take advantage of reduced labor and environmental costs like South Carolina etc are actually seeing the same problems of the industrial or rust belt states, and share the empty buildings, job loss, and other results of losses to manufacturing from the imbalance in imports.

Also the town hall reference was meant to address the length of properly writing out full thoughts, and the benefit of being able to discuss directly in person as well as totally sarcastic.
 
Ya, I figured that maybe Obama could've learned a lesson from Bush. Anyone remember when Bush implemented those steel tariffs in the first year of his administration against the advice of all his economic advisers, then had to embarrassingly remove them a few years later when it became obvious that his advisers were correct?

Obama would do well to heed that lesson, rather than making exactly the same mistake again.

The worst thing was that dumping wasn't even occurring. And apparently flaws and impurities in the US protected steel spiked. Imagine that. We should take stands against dumping when it occurs, hence I'm for this action if there was dumping.
 
What a sad thread.

Is there anything that Obama can do where he will not be attacked from the right?

Hell! They'll even take the Communist Chinese side of the issue if it will score them poltical points.

Nevermind this particular tariff is fully legal under international trade rules when a country is being flooded with cheap imports.

When are you white middle aged, midlle class men going to start sticking up for yourself and your kids?

I am not completely convinced these are all attacks, but rather just people speaking their mind, and that could be part of the issue too.

Point is that there seems to be a point that we go from learning new information to believing it, and for some there is just no turning back. Case in point is how so many will defend either side of this with such passion while never having any empathy for those and their beliefs on the other side.

Just as much as closing our borders completely to imports would not work all that well, leaving things they way they are is also obviously not working all that well either.

The answer very likely just like most times is sitting out there in the middle ground some place, and hopefully after the extremes are done beating each other up they will all find their way to that answer.

And far as those white middle class men you mention are concerned it would seem many of them have been misled to the belief that any restriction on imports will result in the demise of our country.

Oh and are they not also those so often looked at as racists, homophobes, and the ones clinging to their guns and religion :lol:
 
Last edited:
There is no need to use guns with our CEO's, and all it would take is to remove the increased profits from exploiting third world nations low labor costs at the cost of destroying our own manufacturing sector.
How do you propose to do that?
 
China has lent out its hands to help us. We respond by making it hard to do business in this country?

It makes me question who the a-holes really are. I don't think it's China.

Well, while I am against any protectionist actions on the part of the United States, China is not buying U.S. T-Bills to help us out, they do it because its a safe investment for them.
 
How do you propose to do that?

Coronado it seems we have accepted so many different taxes that by the time you manage to figure it all out (something I am not even sure if possible with 100% accuracy) and you include the taxes that become part of the price of the products we buy, and additional taxes on items or dollars already taxed before, and it goes on and on, and it would not be too difficult to create serious incentives for US manufacturing plants.

Not sure I would support going to the extremes with this style, but some combination of reasonable import duties combined with savings from reductions in government waste and corruption etc could easily offset the costs of US based production.

Since so much of the burden of running the country and all the related corruption from our two party system has fallen directly or been diverted to the working class tax payers (nearly to the point of bursting the bubble too) it would have great promise for all.

I am not sure I said that exactly right so let me know if I need to clear anything up etc.
 
Thanks for the info on the Ricardian Model :roll: but that was not where I was intending to be going etc. Sorry if my reference to dumping duties, or difference in labor costs between first and third world nations misled etc.

You are stating people are worse off, i am saying no....

Since I am not debating the logic, or theory of any previous trade beliefs, but rather am addressing the negative effects that I have been able to see personally and know well etc I am going to stick with that of which I am more knowledgeable of.

Such as?

One thing that is obvious is the serious negative effects of so many years of trade imbalance that go right down to the core of our system and people.

Which is?

Consider a ride through the most successful industrial states of the past century and tell everyone what you think of what you find.

You are not giving any clear examples. But do tell, how many Graphic designers, desktop publishers, NET Java developers, SQL database administrators, or motion graphics specialists were employed in 1995? Do you think the number of occupational, physical, and speech therapists increased in that time?

Let us know your thoughts on the decaying buildings and infrastructure, resulting ranks of homeless those on government services, and all the other related negative results of our of control imports.

The US economy has shifted towards a serviced based economy. The difference is, American consumers pay less for consumption goods while real income has increased since the 80's (the last time we had a current account surplus).

001_real_median_income.png


I have not witnessed it directly but I understand that even the areas where many companies had originally moved production to in order to take advantage of reduced labor and environmental costs like South Carolina etc are actually seeing the same problems of the industrial or rust belt states, and share the empty buildings, job loss, and other results of losses to manufacturing from the imbalance in imports.

Yet we would expect a massive increase in the poverty rate, if what you are saying is correct. Actually, we would see an increase, although that is really the case. Barring for the current recession, the poverty rate has actually decreased since 1959 (and 1980, right around the beginning of a successive current account deficits.
Poverty_59_to_05.png
 
What a sad thread.

Is there anything that Obama can do where he will not be attacked from the right?

Hell! They'll even take the Communist Chinese side of the issue if it will score them poltical points.

Nevermind this particular tariff is fully legal under international trade rules when a country is being flooded with cheap imports.

When are you white middle aged, midlle class men going to start sticking up for yourself and your kids?
I had no issue with his speech to the school kids.
 
Like Voidwar did in defending his claim he's not pro-killing Cops?

So he would let a gang of "cops" rape his family and burn down his house without even trying to defend himself? What a coward! I am pro-self-defense of one's natural rights, no matter what sort of uniform the people who aggress against you may wear!


That doesn't explain why we should just sit down and take dumping.

No one is forcing you nor anyone else to buy Chinese products, or keeping you from entering the marketplace to compete with them.


That part does crack me up up those who claim to be patriotic American. Some of these people on this thread I understand because they are globalist, globalist do not give a **** about the future or sovereignty of their country nor could they care less that American jobs are being outsourced.

I'm not a "patriot", I am an individualist.

You want strong government interventionism to, among other things, initiate aggression against other peoples (i.e. by restricting their ability to trade on the basis of merit) - that ideology can only be described as National Socialism (i.e. fascism)!
 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom