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Rep. Wilson Outburst Leads Senate Dems to Close Loophole in Health Reform Bill

Of course health care is important, so is the economy and the DEFICIT. According to polling by Rasmussen and others, Americans by far are more worried about the deficit than they are of health care.

So we should let Health Care costs continue to rise unchecked? That is certainly fiscally responsible?

I believe you actually have to have a plan to reduce the deficit, which we are all worried about, and avoiding the major drivers of the deficit is no way to 'tackle' the problem.

We call this smoke and mirrors.
 
Re: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/09/10/rep-wilson-outburst-leads-senate-dems-

Oh yes, Bush wanted to privitize SS and dump all that money onto Wall Street just before it crashed. It was a bad idea. I am not sure how this bad idea makes anyone a liar?

I don't see any real difference between calling someone a liar and booing. And what's even more troubling is that you people are trying to make this about Wilson when it should be about Obama stating a bold faced and egregious lie to the American people on national t.v..

Reforming Health Care, bringing cost under control and allowing for something near and dear to Republicans -- fiscal responsibility -- is paramount to our countries long term health.


Insuring illegal aliens when we're 11.5 TRILLION dollars in debt should be bloody criminal.

If Obama were talkimg about privitizing the Pentagon's budget and dumping the money onto Wall Street as a stimulus to poor, down trodden bankers, he would rightly also be booed.

He stated a bold faced lie on national t.v. and was rightly called a liar.
 
Sure it is, which makes me wonder why the new wonderful health care bill is going to take three+ years to get cranked up.

So if it's important why do you think there shouldn't be a joint session of Congress about it?
 
Of course health care is important, so is the economy and the DEFICIT. According to polling by Rasmussen and others, Americans by far are more worried about the deficit than they are of health care.

I wasn't talking to you and the wasn't the context I asked it in your post is completely irrelevant to mine.
 
So we should let Health Care costs continue to rise unchecked? That is certainly fiscally responsible?

I believe you actually have to have a plan to reduce the deficit, which we are all worried about, and avoiding the major drivers of the deficit is no way to 'tackle' the problem.

We call this smoke and mirrors.

I think everyone outside of a small portion in the GOP acknowledge that health care needs reform and prices are too high. However, the problem is, alternate theories to Obama Care don't get any press so people don't know about them. Here is a way to fix health care without increasing the size of government and the national debt. And it's from a doctor who has practiced medicene for over 30 years:

Here is the URL:[nomedia]www.youtube.com/watch?v=foXQbmZxWYY[/nomedia]

Secondly, the impact this bill will have on the defecit is a MAJOR concern, equal to the stress the illegal Bush wars have been. How can Obama stand there with a straight face and say this will be paid for by decreasing the waste of Medicare and Medicaid, when the government created the mess in both of the programs that they run!! If you bring your car to a mechanic and you get it back in worse condition than when you left it, do you bring it back to the same mechanic to fix it again? What kind of sense does that make??
 
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So we should let Health Care costs continue to rise unchecked? That is certainly fiscally responsible?

I believe you actually have to have a plan to reduce the deficit, which we are all worried about, and avoiding the major drivers of the deficit is no way to 'tackle' the problem.

We call this smoke and mirrors.

You are assuming that I don't want anything done about health care. Of course I do. I want more options as a consumer. I want to have my health care tax deductible if I buy it myself, like those who buy it through work. I don't want Medicare touched (these guys have more right to health care than most, paying into it all their lives). I want TORT reform, and incentives for students to go into medicine. Universal health care wouldn't have such high projected costs here in the US if it didn't include an enormous rise in demand (30 million new patients) without at least an equal rise in the supply of doctors.

I agree that health care is important. I disagree that it is important enough to compare with past callings of joint sessions in congress (eg. 9/11).
 
Re: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/09/10/rep-wilson-outburst-leads-senate-dems-

I don't see any real difference between calling someone a liar and booing. And what's even more troubling is that you people are trying to make this about Wilson when it should be about Obama stating a bold faced and egregious lie to the American people on national t.v..




Insuring illegal aliens when we're 11.5 TRILLION dollars in debt should be bloody criminal.



He stated a bold faced lie on national t.v. and was rightly called a liar.

Well, one is a sound, sounds like 'boooooo' and generally conveys disareement. Calling someone a liar in public generally means that you not only disagree, but that you are specifically charging the person with a deliberate attempt to mislead.

The later generally requires something called proof.

So, as COngrees currently mandates that those entering an ER be treated regardless of status, illegal immigrants are CURRENTLY being treated. I have seen nothing that would seek to change this by extending insurance coverage to illegal aliens.

I will also remind you that the vast majority if the extended debt was incurred through wreckless tax cuts in conjunction with increased expenditures. The current wars are the first time in our nations history that we have not only gone to war without increasing taxes, but by cutting them.

I will also point out that the current, and largely successful fiscal stimulus package was actually initiated under Bush (a Republican) with strong dissention from Congressional Republicans.

Now that it appears to be successful, as Kensian Economics suggeted it would be, I wonder why Republicans are want it be failing when in essence they created it? So, the fact that they strongly disavowed their own creation allowing Obama to be both responsible for the decision and the response is bad for Republicans?

I suppose it is, but none of that make Mr. Wilson's comment either appropriate or accurate.

Mr. Wilson can try to repeal the ER requirements from national law, but he would also be denying Americas unisured ermerget care as well. Let's hope his ego is less important to him than human lives.
 
You are assuming that I don't want anything done about health care. Of course I do. I want more options as a consumer. I want to have my health care tax deductible if I buy it myself, like those who buy it through work. I don't want Medicare touched (these guys have more right to health care than most, paying into it all their lives). I want TORT reform, and incentives for students to go into medicine. Universal health care wouldn't have such high projected costs here in the US if it didn't include an enormous rise in demand (30 million new patients) without at least an equal rise in the supply of doctors.

I agree that health care is important. I disagree that it is important enough to compare with past callings of joint sessions in congress (eg. 9/11).

And yet Congress doesn't respond to the President's whim. There appears to be broad concensus between the two branches of government to create this forum.

Ironically, most of what you are concerend about is exacty what Obama talked about. You are in essence getting most of what you want, but are peeved because Congress and the President sat down and talked jointly with the American public? Seriously?
 
And yet Congress doesn't respond to the President's whim. There appears to be broad concensus between the two branches of government to create this forum.

Ironically, most of what you are concerend about is exacty what Obama talked about. You are in essence getting most of what you want, but are peeved because Congress and the President sat down and talked jointly with the American public? Seriously?

Mmmm.... not exactly. The President is proposing making cuts to Medicare, none of the bills talk about freeing up the market of insurance by allowing purchases across state lines, and if the President succeeds in going against the biggest interest group of the democrats (trial lawyers) and cuts down on wasteful spending due to defensive medicine and costly lawsuits, I promise here and now I will be a strong supporter to Obama and vote for him in 2012.
 
Re: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/09/10/rep-wilson-outburst-leads-senate-dems-

...but none of that make Mr. Wilson's comment either appropriate or accurate.

Though I definitely agree with you that Rep. Wilson's comment was inappropriate, how can your conclusion based on your own suppositions bring you to the conclusion that he was inaccurate. Will or will not illegals be covered under one of the bills put forward? Does not the answer to this question prove Rep. Wilson accurate?
 
The problems defined.

Businesses can no longer afford Health Care premiums, meaning that either more Americans go uninsured or we place ourselves at a competitive disadvantage with the rest of the world.

Quite frankly health care cost too much for what it delivers in general, and those costs are increasingly leaving the middle class behind.

That is health care problem in a very over simple nutshell.

The Republican problem is aptly displayed above, in an almost gleeful attack on a solution without anything that looks like a solution to the first problem.

Do Republicans understand that throwing rocks and cirticism will not get you leadership? That these tactics, purely political, will not actually solve the countries problems? That simply seeking power for power's sake is not in our best interest? That we have enemies actually attacking our country, so maybe we can focus our efforts against them and not those whose sin is merely belonging to another party?

Do Republicans think that if they toprpedo Heath Care reform that there will not be a severe voter backlash in a year? That the manufactured fear of death panels will erase the growing problem originally stated and that actual problems will still have to be solved at some point?

i appreciate your civility and thoughtfulness

you sound a lot like the president in that you're very good at describing the problem

obama's solutions are far worse than where we are now and where we're heading, even

the republicans' problems don't exist, they will fill leadership's void like a vacuum, like physics

just as obama came from COMMUNITY ORGANIZING into the white house

republicans will be considered heroes by most americans for stopping obamacare

problems remaining with obamacare (which is dead, anyway, sorry):

1. it fines individuals

2. it forces folks who can't afford it to finagle for themselves that which they can't afford, hardly the help they were expecting or felt promised

3. it bends the cost curve the wrong way, significantly (said cbo, july 16), actuarial underpinning of obamacare's primal impetus (which was economic, you recall, not social)

4. it cuts medicare and medicaid half a tril (that's why seniors will see those who stop obamacare as saviors)

5. it stripped e-verify, per the killing of heller in ways and means, july 17, leaving no enforcement arm to ensure the empty assertion that illegals will not be included (this is why the SIX are so fast backpedaling this morning, no?)

6. it still looks to end of life costs for scary savings

7. it generalizes abortion funding

8. it taxes small business---in the worst conceivable economic climate

9. it surcharges upper incomes, politically problematical

10. it taxes benefits, ala john mccain (whom obama rightly beat up for even suggesting it during campaign, but now impounds vs cadillac plans are described repeatedly by obtuse obama as his favorite method of scraping together a pittance of the revenue required for his almost obscene ambitions)

11. it's PERCEIVED (appearances are reality in politics) as foot in the door incrementalism towards single payer, the buzziest issue will be the inability of privates to compete with subsidized publics

12. no one, not even folks in his own party, TRUST this president

13. i have never seen, on the other hand, any president make a bid that ASKS for so MUCH trust

14. obamacare as currently envisioned is BY FAR the greatest DOMESTIC political issue in us history

15. and yet no one knows, for example, exactly what a co op is (even folks like baucus and durbin), thus we all have to TRUST him

16. no one knows exactly what he means by "insurance exchanges," we only know sorta what he means (most people are coming to think HE doesn't even know exactly what he means)---again, astronomical amounts of TRUST are being beggared

17. he's not serious about tort reform, he really comes off as funnily phony on the subject

18. hr3200 is dead, he's gotta start all over

he should try for one focused bill per year for 8 years, hello

universalism never did have a chance, he's not real bright

sorry
 
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And yet Congress doesn't respond to the President's whim. There appears to be broad concensus between the two branches of government to create this forum.

Ironically, most of what you are concerend about is exacty what Obama talked about. You are in essence getting most of what you want, but are peeved because Congress and the President sat down and talked jointly with the American public? Seriously?

I have a couple of questions for you. You obviously are aware of the need to reform as much as I am. It seems to me that where we disagree are the methods of the reforming, specifically the bills put forward by the democrats and the gang of 6. My questions to you are:

1) Is there anything that is being discussed as part of the bills (and confirmed such) that you disapprove of but are willing to sacrifice for the sake of getting a bill through?

2) Is there anything that is being discussed as part of the bills that you disapprove of but are unwilling to sacrifice for the sake of getting a bill through?
 
Rep. Wilson wasn't lying, but I'd say he over-simplified the issue as well. As I point out in post #23 to the thread, there are circumstances where a "non-resident alien" would receive health care under H.R. 3200. However, I also point out that in post #29 that in a rather round-about way, the bill does ensure that as a norm "non-resident aliens" would not receive care or federal funding for same under the bill.

Therefore, Rep. Wilson is correct, but only insofar as the circumstances would direct some illegal/non-resident aliens to receive medical treatment under current federal law. Still, I understand what Rep. Wilson and others want on this sensative matter...for the wording in H.R. 3200 to just come right out and say it, "no illegal aliens will be authorized to receive health care under this bill except as expressly outlined in subparagraphs K, T, U and V of the Immigration and Nationalization Act." That would close this matter entirely.
 
Sure looks like from that PDB that they knew of hijackings in the new york area and suspicious activity centered around hijackings

Bush should have closed down all the airports and stopped all international travel. Then he should have been impeached for gross negligence of duty and his head demanded on a platter. Bush is the one who asked for the information in the memo in the first place.

United Airlines used to give away box cutters as a marketing freebie.
 
Re: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/09/10/rep-wilson-outburst-leads-senate-dems-

Though I definitely agree with you that Rep. Wilson's comment was inappropriate, how can your conclusion based on your own suppositions bring you to the conclusion that he was inaccurate. Will or will not illegals be covered under one of the bills put forward? Does not the answer to this question prove Rep. Wilson accurate?

Well, I have addressed this several times. Illegal immigrants ARE CURRENTLY covered with access to emergency rooms, as indeed are our uninsured.

There is nothing in any version of the bills that would expand inurance coverage to illegal aliens. In effect, as emergent care in both human and necessary to prevent the outbreak of serious contagions, etc., this emergent care would be maintained.

If Mr. Wilson wants to strip this 'coverage', he is welcome to try. That does not make the President a liar for accurately pointing out that there is no attempt to extend coverage to illegal aliens. They will not be brought into our insurance umbrella.

I would also ask you, as most aliens here hold jobs and pay taxes and recieve no benefits like social security, unemployment, etc., and given the proven fiscal and health benefits (particularly in regard to reducing expensive emergent care) why it would be a bad idea to extend this coverage to aliens who are paying into the system and can thus receive preventative care?

We could also talk about making our immigration policy sensible so that immigrants can follow seasonal work and efficiently re-apply for re-entry when they return home rather than having to stay here illegally because the process is so difficult and in-efficient.

In short, the 'alien' BS is focusing on an emotional tree and missing the forest and correlative effects and complex interactions of policies. Deliberate mis-information and deliberate and disingenious emotive calls are extremely unhelpful for functional democracy.

I promise you, on the other side of these emotive calls are policy decisions that do not want to be publically discussed ... and they should be.
 
Re: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/09/10/rep-wilson-outburst-leads-senate-dems-

Haven't you figured it out yet! That ilk just calls anything that they disagree with or do not understand "unconstitutional. It's a scam.
Is that what I did, look real close.
 
Bush should have closed down all the airports and stopped all international travel. Then he should have been impeached for gross negligence of duty and his head demanded on a platter. Bush is the one who asked for the information in the memo in the first place.

United Airlines used to give away box cutters as a marketing freebie.

Doesn't change the fact that he was warned about it which was what apbst was talking about. He saw it sat on his hands, went on vacation told an aide thanks you covered your ass then a month later 9/11 happened
 
Bush should have closed down all the airports and stopped all international travel. Then he should have been impeached for gross negligence of duty and his head demanded on a platter. Bush is the one who asked for the information in the memo in the first place.

United Airlines used to give away box cutters as a marketing freebie.
Bush should have had the Justice Dept file a lawsuit against al Qaeda.
 
Doesn't change the fact that he was warned about it which was what apbst was talking about. He saw it sat on his hands, went on vacation told an aide thanks you covered your ass then a month later 9/11 happened
Do you think Bill Clinton or George Bush didn't know that Bin Laden was determined to attack the US?

Who the hell takes pilot lessons but doesn't care to learn how to land? That would have been about the only way we could have caught these guys. They did nothing illegal until they killed the pilots.
 
Do you think Bill Clinton or George Bush didn't know that Bin Laden was determined to attack the US?

Who the hell takes pilot lessons but doesn't care to learn how to land? That would have been about the only way we could have caught these guys. They did nothing illegal until they killed the pilots.

There's a difference in approach. The Bush team didn't take Al-Qaida seriously until after 9/11. They were warned by the outgoing administration about Al-Qaida and given a plan which was trashed. The team hunting bin laden was called off.

Yet in the 9/11 report we found that thats exactly what was happening the pilots the FBI had on radar in Florida were more interested in flying and not landing.
 
Re: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/09/10/rep-wilson-outburst-leads-senate-dems-

Why don't you fill us in on how Bush had enough information to know the where when and how of 9/11. Thanks in advance.

You're arguing samantic here.

Fact remains that although former President GW Bush didn't have specifics as to when or where an attack would take place on U.S. soil, he atleast had an indication of "how". Prudence dictates that the major airports should have been warned and allowed to plan accordingly against hijackings. It's just that simple. But very little, if anything, was done to make our airports safer against hijackings prior to 9/11.

What could have been done differently to help prevent 9/11?

  • Tighter security screening of carry-on baggage.
  • Tighter screening of Middle-Eastern men considering that it was known of what nationality the danger would come from.
  • A mandate on closer review of passenger manifests.
  • A far more diligent review of FBI/CIA/International watch-lists.

Of course, it's easy now to sit back and say what should have happened, but I think we all can agree that former President GW. Bush was aware of the potential danger to our airports and of the possiblity that commercial airliners would be hijacked.
 
Re: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/09/10/rep-wilson-outburst-leads-senate-dems-

Well, I have addressed this several times. Illegal immigrants ARE CURRENTLY covered with access to emergency rooms, as indeed are our uninsured.

There is nothing in any version of the bills that would expand inurance coverage to illegal aliens. In effect, as emergent care in both human and necessary to prevent the outbreak of serious contagions, etc., this emergent care would be maintained.

If Mr. Wilson wants to strip this 'coverage', he is welcome to try. That does not make the President a liar for accurately pointing out that there is no attempt to extend coverage to illegal aliens. They will not be brought into our insurance umbrella.

I would also ask you, as most aliens here hold jobs and pay taxes and recieve no benefits like social security, unemployment, etc., and given the proven fiscal and health benefits (particularly in regard to reducing expensive emergent care) why it would be a bad idea to extend this coverage to aliens who are paying into the system and can thus receive preventative care?

We could also talk about making our immigration policy sensible so that immigrants can follow seasonal work and efficiently re-apply for re-entry when they return home rather than having to stay here illegally because the process is so difficult and in-efficient.

In short, the 'alien' BS is focusing on an emotional tree and missing the forest and correlative effects and complex interactions of policies. Deliberate mis-information and deliberate and disingenious emotive calls are extremely unhelpful for functional democracy.

I promise you, on the other side of these emotive calls are policy decisions that do not want to be publically discussed ... and they should be.

Holding jobs and paying taxes do not qualify individuals for health care. Like you mention, they already get emergency care and the like. If they want to buy insurance, you will get no objection here. But they don't. I invite all of those interested in this topic to visit my new thread.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/immigration/56252-alternate-immigration-solution.html

I think you will find that we have a lot in common.
 
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