• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Marijuana farming rebounds in economic hard times

Wrong. People do not grow grains/grapes so that they can distill their own alcohol to avoid the pigouvian taxes levied, nor do they grow their own tobacco to avoid taxes.... Again, the opportunity cost rule applies here as well.
Distilling is illegal and people certainly DO do that to avoid costs. It takes months and years to make fermented beverages, so you can see why that's a disincentive.

As for tobacco, it's a LOT more difficult to grow. It doesn't have the nickname, "weed." People are starting to grow their own though now that taxes are getting ridiculous.
 
Is there some kind of logic to this?

The only theory I can think of that remotely makes sense is to protect the dancers themselves. Drunk guys can get pretty pissed when the dancer says no. Personally in my opinion this should be a club by club policy not up to the state to decide.

Don't know if Colorado repealed it but in some areas you couldn't be closer than 6 feet from the strippers and they had tip boxes. Hurt a lot of strip clubs.

Ouch, thats just down right mean.
 
How does legalizing pot put any cartels out of business? That is false. ...

seems that after prohibition ended the trade in illegal liquor also subsided significantly ... and the mob control that went with it

why would the decriminalization of marijuana be expected to have a different result
 
We would almost definitely save money on the enforcement and punishment currently devoted to marijuana users, growers, and sellers. However, it's misleading to state that it would put the cartels out of business. They'd switch most of their business over to harder drugs, as they have done so in the past decade, such as methamphetamine. Anyone who thinks meth should be legalized for local production is an idiot.
 
sigh I get tired of the same old arguments over and over.

according to a report by National Public Radio’s John Burnett on the April 20 broadcast

really???

With a federal government that is on track to be running $1-trillion deficits

We should be saving every last penny we can.

One thing that is often overlooked in the recent string of media coverage about marijuana legalization is what would happen to the market if it were a legal drug. The revenue-generating potential would be greatly reduced if it were legal to be grown anywhere.

Who says it should be legal to grow anywhere? To insure quality, disrupt the black market and insure legitimacy of the supply it should be strictly controlled, and only allowed with a license.

Sure there will be a few people who will be hobby growers, but it will not be everyone, most will find it much easier just to drive down the road and buy some instead of dealing with doting over a crop in hopes that it will have a good quality yield.

This will be minimal, just as the number people who currently run their own still is minimal. If you are growing unlicensed, then you are subject to heavy penalties for tax evasion, just as is the case now for illicit stills.

Truth Detector said:
Anyone who thinks similar costs reflected in alcohol abuse won’t also translate over to legal pot use is wallowing in denial. While the health related costs may be much less, the other associated costs are valid arguments to NOT legalizing this drug; and it is a "drug."

as for the costs presented from the NIDA.. many can be written off as the cost of prohibition, not the costs of the drugs themselves. The rest will be there regardless of legality.

Let's look at the breakdown:

Total healthcare expenditures from drugs: $9,931 billion

This is a cost that is there prior to legalization, and one that will be there post legalization, irrelevant (unless you are prepared to provide solid evidence that there will be a substantial increase in usage that contradicts the data that says otherwise).

Premature death from drugs: $14,575 billion

dunno how you are supposed to put a dollar4 amount on the costs of death, but there it is. Of course these deaths will be almost entirely deaths outside of marijuana, unless they decide to attribute any deaths that occur with mj present in the system as being caused by mj. The drug itself does not kill.

regardless even if we were to legalize ALL drugs this number will decrease. No more overdoses from a bad batch, substantial decrease in HIV, and many more. and again if you want to argue otherwise as a result of increased usage you need to overcome the growing body of evidence that there is no significant correlation between legality and usage.

ok moving on..

impaired productivity from drugs: $14.2 billion

again a cost borne regardless of legality (unless as is likely they are counting time in jail as loss of productivity).

institutionalized populations and incarceration: 19.4 billion

this is not a cost of drugs, this is a cost of the war on drugs.

Crime careers: $19.2 billion

included in this number is guess what.. drug dealing (that goes away). All you will be left with is theft and prostitution, both costs that are there independent of whether drugs are legal or not, and in all liklihood both of these will decrease.

then add in another $20 billion for victims of crime, and crime (dunno how crime manages to get counted 3 times)

Then of course there is the ~$20 billion year for the ONDCP budget.

in a nutshell the costs you cite are one of 2 categories

1) costs that will be there regardless of legality (including a few that will likely decrease)

2) costs that are the cost of the war on drugs, and not the cost of the drugs themselves.

the latter will all go away.

but of course as you pointed out in the beginning of your argument (before it became beneficial to bolster your position) that these are all drops in the bucket compared to a trillion dollar deficit.
 
Last edited:
We would almost definitely save money on the enforcement and punishment currently devoted to marijuana users, growers, and sellers. However, it's misleading to state that it would put the cartels out of business. They'd switch most of their business over to harder drugs, as they have done so in the past decade, such as methamphetamine. Anyone who thinks meth should be legalized for local production is an idiot.

The thing there is that oven if we only legalized marijuana, the market for the other drugs is already established, and will remain steady regardless.

They can try to saturate the market, but all that will do is drive their prices down, people are not going to suddenly decide "hey.. meth, coke, heroin.. hmm i should start doing that now that marijuana is legal."

They cannot create a market where it does not exist
 
Distilling is illegal and people certainly DO do that to avoid costs. It takes months and years to make fermented beverages, so you can see why that's a disincentive.

As for tobacco, it's a LOT more difficult to grow. It doesn't have the nickname, "weed." People are starting to grow their own though now that taxes are getting ridiculous.

psst.. just an fyi.. it will only take 10-25 days to make a batch of liquor.

Now if you want age it a bit and make a fine scotch or cognac, then yes it sits for years to age. But to produce alcohol.. a few weeks...tops

And if those few weeks are a disincentive, then so too would the few months it takes to grow a crop of marijuana, complete with mature flowers (buds).
 
Distilling is illegal and people certainly DO do that to avoid costs. It takes months and years to make fermented beverages, so you can see why that's a disincentive.

As for tobacco, it's a LOT more difficult to grow. It doesn't have the nickname, "weed." People are starting to grow their own though now that taxes are getting ridiculous.

The only reason i can honestly want to grow my own is for hobby. There are simply better "pot growers" than myself, why not do what i do best, and then trade my dollars for their superior product?
 
The only reason i can honestly want to grow my own is for hobby. There are simply better "pot growers" than myself, why not do what i do best, and then trade my dollars for their superior product?

cheech-and-chong.jpg


Here,s a couple of pretty good "pot growers" at least Tommy is/was.;)
 
It's a weed how much tax are you going to get on something that, once legalized, anyone could grow in their backyard?

On second thought, we DO have store shelves filled with bottled tap water so maybe you can't 'misunderestimate' the power of marketing.

You go ahead and you smoke the "weed" that is left untended in the ground to grow without extended supervision. There is a reason that crappy marijuana is nicknamed "ditch weed"

A quality product must be carefully tended for, given the right amount and intervals of light and dark. Carefully pruned to kill of any male plants (which have no THC in them) and properly harvested and cured. It's a process that is very much in depth. If you want crappy product (that might not even contain thc) yeah, scatter a few seeds, see how well that works out!
 
You go ahead and you smoke the "weed" that is left untended in the ground to grow without extended supervision. There is a reason that crappy marijuana is nicknamed "ditch weed"

A quality product must be carefully tended for, given the right amount and intervals of light and dark. Carefully pruned to kill of any male plants (which have no THC in them) and properly harvested and cured. It's a process that is very much in depth. If you want crappy product (that might not even contain thc) yeah, scatter a few seeds, see how well that works out!

While your defense that extended supervision is required is valid, it also contains a few inaccuracies.

The THC content is extremely dependent on the genetics of the plant. The reason "ditch weed" is so low in THC content is because they are remnants from when hemp was grown legally, and prolifically. Hemp is genetically predisposed to have an extremely low THC content.

Grown outdoors, the photo-period trigger to initiate flowering occurs naturally as the days grow longer with the changing of the seasons, this requires no supervision.

Aside from this, production of a bountiful crop will take supervision, removing the males, fertilizing, pruning ect. all will be required to provide a high quality yield.

To further bolster your point, in a post legalization world the vast majority of recreational cannabis will be grown in greenhouses. The main reason for this is because pollination of the females is extremely undesirable. If planted outdoors and left to mature the plants will get pollinated, and will produce seeds. Grown outdoors there is absolutely no way to prevent pollination.

The production of seeds will sap vital plant energy that would otherwise go towards fattening the buds and increasing yield.

More significantly, consumers will demand seedless, both from a quality standpoint, and also from a convenience standpoint. Quite simply, there will be a very limited market for pollinated seed laden buds. About the only foreseeable outlet for outdoor grown pollinated pot would be for industrial production of prepackaged rolled product. For those who choose bongs, bowls, vaporizers, edibles, ect. or to roll their own, they will opt for seedless.

The other reason why there will not widespread open air production of it is because there is no way to adequately secure a field from poachers. It would be too easy, and extremely unacceptable for under aged kids to stroll into a field and pick at leisure.

Realistically there will never be legal outdoor "flower pot" gardens for the average Joe (without substantial precautions to insure minors cannot poach). If this were allowed to happen, then there is NO control over the product, and NO safeguards to keep it out of the hands of children.

IF hobby growing were allowed, it would occur indoors, or within a greenhouse, and would be a substantial expense, as well as requiring a very high level of dedication and attention. Hobby production will be very limited, and will have almost no impact on the market as a whole.
 
Last edited:
Anyone that wants to see what industrial hemp looks like, check out along the side of I-80 in parts of Illinois you will see plenty of it. During WW11, we needed a fiber that could be used in the manufacturing of cloth products…so,the law that was put into effect banning hemp in 1937 was lifted.

The results of the lifting of the ban can be seen when you pull off of interstate 80 to this day. Almost anyplace along that stretch of Northern Illinois and parts of Iowa. Several mills for extracting the fiber were constructed in northern Illinois by the federal government. Get this, during the war the government subsidized industrial hemp, kinda sounds like the ethanol fiasco to me.
 
While your defense that extended supervision is required is valid, it also contains a few inaccuracies.

The THC content is extremely dependent on the genetics of the plant. The reason "ditch weed" is so low in THC content is because they are remnants from when hemp was grown legally, and prolifically. Hemp is genetically predisposed to have an extremely low THC content.

Grown outdoors, the photo-period trigger to initiate flowering occurs naturally as the days grow longer with the changing of the seasons, this requires no supervision.

Aside from this, production of a bountiful crop will take supervision, removing the males, fertilizing, pruning ect. all will be required to provide a high quality yield.

To further bolster your point, in a post legalization world the vast majority of recreational cannabis will be grown in greenhouses. The main reason for this is because pollination of the females is extremely undesirable. If planted outdoors and left to mature the plants will get pollinated, and will produce seeds. Grown outdoors there is absolutely no way to prevent pollination.

The production of seeds will sap vital plant energy that would otherwise go towards fattening the buds and increasing yield.

More significantly, consumers will demand seedless, both from a quality standpoint, and also from a convenience standpoint. Quite simply, there will be a very limited market for pollinated seed laden buds. About the only foreseeable outlet for outdoor grown pollinated pot would be for industrial production of prepackaged rolled product. For those who choose bongs, bowls, vaporizers, edibles, ect. or to roll their own, they will opt for seedless.

The other reason why there will not widespread open air production of it is because there is no way to adequately secure a field from poachers. It would be too easy, and extremely unacceptable for under aged kids to stroll into a field and pick at leisure.

Realistically there will never be legal outdoor "flower pot" gardens for the average Joe (without substantial precautions to insure minors cannot poach). If this were allowed to happen, then there is NO control over the product, and NO safeguards to keep it out of the hands of children.

IF hobby growing were allowed, it would occur indoors, or within a greenhouse, and would be a substantial expense, as well as requiring a very high level of dedication and attention. Hobby production will be very limited, and will have almost no impact on the market as a whole.

I agree completely, and thank you for extrapolating. I was simply giving the basics, but it's nice to know I'm not the only one with a green thumb! :lol:
 
As a Christian I believe God put things on this planet for a reason. I believe marijuana is one of those things.

But if you think God is wrong then so be it. But I wouldn't want to be in your shoes on judgement day.
 
Last edited:
It's a weed how much tax are you going to get on something that, once legalized, anyone could grow in their backyard?

On second thought, we DO have store shelves filled with bottled tap water so maybe you can't 'misunderestimate' the power of marketing.

Exactly.

** And now for a commercial break **

Scene at a beach - A man and a woman are smoking weed. They look into each others' eyes. They hold hands. They walk up the beach to a condo, and go inside.

** Cut to the announcer **

"Smoke Grassmasters. Just look for the GM symbol of excellence on the pack. Grassmasters will get you there."

Companies can't sell weed, or almost anything else, but they can definitely sell sex. :mrgreen:
 
Last edited:
psst.. just an fyi.. it will only take 10-25 days to make a batch of liquor.

Now if you want age it a bit and make a fine scotch or cognac, then yes it sits for years to age. But to produce alcohol.. a few weeks...tops
Yes, i know. You misread my post or I just wasn't clear. By "fermented beverages" taking months-years I meant beer and wine. I guess you could make some beer in under a month, but I don't know if it would be very good. If you are going to distill the mash or whatever I'm sure it's much faster.

And if those few weeks are a disincentive, then so too would the few months it takes to grow a crop of marijuana, complete with mature flowers (buds).
If it's legal, you don't need to "grow crops" you only need to pick the plant and dry it out.
 
Last edited:
why not do what i do best, and then trade my dollars for their superior product?
If you can afford it, I'm sure that's what you'd do. If you didn't have a lot of money, and the stuff was growing all over your backyard, you might make a different choice.
 
The other reason why there will not widespread open air production of it is because there is no way to adequately secure a field from poachers. It would be too easy, and extremely unacceptable for under aged kids to stroll into a field and pick at leisure.
Yes, exactly!

Realistically there will never be legal outdoor "flower pot" gardens for the average Joe (without substantial precautions to insure minors cannot poach). If this were allowed to happen, then there is NO control over the product, and NO safeguards to keep it out of the hands of children.
So maybe we'd just imagine a world where the plant is still illegal, but the licensed, manufactured, regulated, and taxed product is not. That DOES sound like America!

Maybe the politicians can think up some interstate commerce laws too so that their distributor friends can also get a cut. It's sounding less and less likely that those same politicians - having created all this power for themselves - would turn around and let joe public grow at home.
 
Standard irrational response: If we legalize marijuana then everyone will get high! Think of the children! Etc.

Its to late for that...
Everyone getting high already why because its soo easy for children to get drugs from underground dealers and if we do legalize marijuana then the kids will never get a chance to bye marijuana or other drugs just like alcohol.
 
Last edited:
If you can afford it, I'm sure that's what you'd do. If you didn't have a lot of money, and the stuff was growing all over your backyard, you might make a different choice.

You underestimate the time required to do so in a quality manner. Secondly, there are various pests that can and will ruin a casual grow, not to mention natures own ways to ruin your crop. Some seeds will turn out to be male, and then you have yourself a whole bunch of issues.

Take it from someone who is legally allowed to grow 25 plants in the state of California, its not as glamorous as you are making it out to be. Outdoor grows are wonderful if you have the time and money to put into guaranteeing pests or poachers will not effect your harvest. Lots of hard work. And if you are not experienced, it will almost always be a waste of time, relatively speaking.
 
You underestimate the time required to do so in a quality manner. Secondly, there are various pests that can and will ruin a casual grow, not to mention natures own ways to ruin your crop. Some seeds will turn out to be male, and then you have yourself a whole bunch of issues.

Take it from someone who is legally allowed to grow 25 plants in the state of California, its not as glamorous as you are making it out to be. Outdoor grows are wonderful if you have the time and money to put into guaranteeing pests or poachers will not effect your harvest. Lots of hard work. And if you are not experienced, it will almost always be a waste of time, relatively speaking.


I grew some pot once that wouldn't gat a flea stoned.
 
You underestimate the time required to do so in a quality manner. Secondly, there are various pests that can and will ruin a casual grow, not to mention natures own ways to ruin your crop. Some seeds will turn out to be male, and then you have yourself a whole bunch of issues.

Take it from someone who is legally allowed to grow 25 plants in the state of California, its not as glamorous as you are making it out to be. Outdoor grows are wonderful if you have the time and money to put into guaranteeing pests or poachers will not effect your harvest. Lots of hard work. And if you are not experienced, it will almost always be a waste of time, relatively speaking.
I doubt it's any more difficult than growing parsley. Some of those issues might pop up if you're limited to growing a specific number. My comments were based on it being totally legalized. I think after thinking about Marduc's post, the liklihood of that is about nil.
 
Nothing like a good glass of manufactured wine when you unscrew the cap. :roll:
 
Nothing like a good glass of manufactured wine when you unscrew the cap. :roll:

it works for good beer
guess that proves i'm not a cork sniffer
and yes, even if that joint is not thai weed, i will smoke it with you ... you won't even have to twist my arm. just don't bogart it or i might twist yours
in this economy, hopefully one of the positive ourcomes will be the diminishment of such affectations
 
As a Christian I believe God put things on this planet for a reason. I believe marijuana is one of those things.

But if you think God is wrong then so be it. But I wouldn't want to be in your shoes on judgement day.
You think people are going to hell for opposing marijuana use?

That's rich ...
 
Back
Top Bottom