• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

UK Health Care: Babies Born in Corridors

paris said:
Yea, somehow I have the feeling those mothers have been sexually active:2razz:
Click to expand...
I hope so plasters, a multiple second coming would kill me:)
 
The Prof said:
1. Bed shortages in Britain force 4000 moms to give birth in elevators, offices, hallways and hospital toilets



5. That the Brits can't bring about such bare-boned basics as birthing beds for those big with babies...
Click to expand...

Does sound like a Daily Mail story...but you forgot the births in the taxi's to Hospital.

My daughter recently had a baby and the only problem she experienced was that they wouldn't let her in to the hospital because she was not sufficiently dilated.

Eventually she would not leave. She was given her own room and told they would not look at her for four hours and it was too early for her to have pain relief, though she had been in labour for over 16 hours.

When they looked back on her insistence a couple of hours later she was ten centermeters dilated and it was now too late for pain relief.

Apart from that she found the anti natal care and everything else excellent. She is extremely proud of herself managing without any pain relief, though she wouldn't have chosen it!

She left hospital 12 hours after giving birth.

Now in the days when I gave birth, they made you stay in hospital for 6 or 7 days.

Where we direct our money has changed.

I imagine you are right that there is a shortage of beds but with something as important as this, this will be something which is corrected.

We have had a 'baby boom' in the last year. This will not have been anticipated.

And no, our health service is not perfect, but it is free help delivered on need.
 
nothing is free

canada's system is heading towards bankruptcy

your daughter is heroic

congrats! to you and her

and your grandchild, too!

cliff
 
The Prof said:
nothing is free

canada's system is heading towards bankruptcy

your daughter is heroic

congrats! to you and her

and your grandchild, too!

cliff
Click to expand...

No it is not.

That is categorically false.
 
tell it to the president of the canadian medical assn

"(Canadians) have to understand that the system that we have right now - if it keeps on going without change - is not sustainable," said Doig
 
The Prof said:
tell it to the president of the canadian medical assn

"(Canadians) have to understand that the system that we have right now - if it keeps on going without change - is not sustainable," said Doig
Click to expand...

Oh golly Prof, there you go again confusing the Socialists with those pesky facts again. :rofl
 
Truth Detector said:
Oh golly Prof, there you go again confusing the Socialists with those pesky facts again. :rofl
Click to expand...

He claims he's proved the Canadian system is nearing for bankruptcy when he's offered no evidence to support this assertion. He posted an article about the British NHS and used it to make incorrect assertions about the quality of service offered to expectant mothers. I'd actually be interested in finally seeing some facts, to be quite frank.
 
Anima said:
He claims he's proved the Canadian system is nearing for bankruptcy when he's offered no evidence to support this assertion. He posted an article about the British NHS and used it to make incorrect assertions about the quality of service offered to expectant mothers. I'd actually be interested in finally seeing some facts, to be quite frank.
Click to expand...

Anima, facts are very easy to come by; however, one has to have an open mind to seek them out.

Here is an indisputable fact; whenever Government gets involved with things, they distort markets and typically make things worse. They compound this with the never ending complaint that if they could just get MORE revenue, they could fix things.

If private industry ran like Government did, they would all be bankrupt.

Remember this, when a private company screws up, they either go out of business, or get bought up by more efficient enterprises. With Government, there is no competition, there is no incentive to innovate or improve and they will never stop needing ever greater funds to keep their programs going regardless of the lack of any credible success with them.

That isn't "partisan", it isn't hyperbole; it is just a FACT.

Now we can pretend that somewhere out there, there is this "perfect" entity and that if we just got the right intellects into power to run things, everything would work out perfectly. But alas, you and I have to live in the REAL world and face these REALITIES; when it comes to your well-being, your health and your prosperity, YOU are the best at deciding how to get there and the system that permits you to seek the education, the choices and levels of prosperity you seek, although less than perfect, is the best way to obtain them.

I cannot fathom anyone who is educated wanting to become a dependent ward of the state; yet that is part of what we are debating today and that politicians are arguing and trying to scare people into voting for.
 
Last edited:
Truth Detector said:
Anima, facts are very easy to come by; however, one has to have an open mind to seek them out.

Here is an indisputable fact; whenever Government gets involved with things, they distort markets and typically make things worse. They compound this with the never ending complaint that if they could just get MORE revenue, they could fix things.

If private industry ran like Government did, they would all be bankrupt.

Remember this, when a private company screws up, they either go out of business, or get bought up by more efficient enterprises. With Government, there is no competition, there is no incentive to innovate or improve and they will never stop needing ever greater funds to keep their programs going regardless of the lack of any credible success with them.

That isn't "partisan", it isn't hyperbole; it is just a FACT.

Now we can pretend that somewhere out there, there is this "perfect" entity and that if we just got the right intellects into power to run things, everything would work out perfectly. But alas, you and I have to live in the REAL world and face these REALITIES; when it comes to your well-being, your health and your prosperity, YOU are the best at deciding how to get there and the system that permits you to seek the education, the choices and levels of prosperity you seek, although less than perfect, is the best way to obtain them.

I cannot fathom anyone who is educated wanting to become a dependent ward of the state; yet that is part of what we are debating today and that politicians are arguing and trying to scare people into voting for.
Click to expand...

You seem to assume nationalised health care restricts choice and freedom, which makes me think you know very little about how most nationalised care systems are actually run. An NHS patient can see any doctor at their surgery, can switch surgeries if they please to access more doctors, can reuest a second opinion and ideally plays an active role in their own treatment and ensuring their own continuing well-being.

We don't need to worry about whether the nearest hospital is in our insurance companies' network. We don't need to worry about facing bankruptcy as a result of catastrophic illness. We live longer than you do, on average. 93% of us are happy with our care, acording to the latest survey by the Quality Care Commission. As for the government being unable to run things efficeintly? It's the private sector that has us down a collective financial hole ata the minute. Claiming that the government can't possibly run anything as well as the private sector is a massive, and incorrect over-generlisation.

So why don't you actually look into how government run care works in other nations before talking about how nothing can be perfect and the government can't be trusted and they'll destroy it and every other point that's being floated around by UHC opponents? The NHS has a huge amount of online publications, and I assume you could find likewise for the Canadian system, or perhaps even the Cuban one.
 
Last edited:
The Prof said:
too abstruse, too theoretical

politics is FEET on the GROUND

president of cma ADMITS, CONCEDES---the system is "IMPLODING"

the numbers are "NOT SUSTAINABLE"

what's "not sustainable" mean to you?

not in some TEXT BOOK?

but on the front pages of any newspaper?

you're so sophisticated, you're silly

The Canadian Press: Overhauling health-care system tops agenda at annual meeting of Canada's doctors
Click to expand...
Please stop posting in this manner, it is very hard to understand.
 
The Prof said:
too abstruse, too theoretical

politics is FEET on the GROUND

president of cma ADMITS, CONCEDES---the system is "IMPLODING"

the numbers are "NOT SUSTAINABLE"

what's "not sustainable" mean to you?

not in some TEXT BOOK?

but on the front pages of any newspaper?

you're so sophisticated, you're silly

The Canadian Press: Overhauling health-care system tops agenda at annual meeting of Canada's doctors
Click to expand...

Yeah, that's the opinion of one doctor, speaking with the sort of hyperbolic language those in the service of the public shoud know better than to use. It says nothing about financial issues, nor does it claim nationalised healthcare is causing the current problems in the Canadian system. I'm afraid I don't see what you're getting at here.
 
Anima said:
Yeah, that's the opinion of one doctor, speaking with the sort of hyperbolic language those in the service of the public shoud know better than to use. It says nothing about financial issues, nor does it claim nationalised healthcare is causing the current problems in the Canadian system. I'm afraid I don't see what you're getting at here.
Click to expand...

i'm not getting at anything, dr doig is

that's hardly "the opinion of one doctor"

whether she should know better or not---LOL!

i'm afraid she's saying a great deal about "financial issues"

i have NO INTEREST in debate

that is, by all means, think what you will

did you see the part about the SECRET MEMO by the VCHA calling for the ELIMINATION of 6000 surgeries, 24% of the metro's case load, the CLOSING of a QUARTER of its facilities?

Thousands of surgeries may be cut in Metro Vancouver due to government underfunding, leaked paper

that SOUNDS bad, no?

READ!

clear enough?

thanks, friend

cliff
 
Anima said:
We live longer than you do, on average.
Click to expand...

I read a study in the Sun Times, one of the local Chicago papers, about how if accidents and homicides are removed (things that people die from that have little to do with health care system) from the statistics, Americans are actually ranked first in life span. Switzerland then comes in second.

I might have the numbers a bit off, but it was something like Americans are 4 times more liely to die in a car accident and 12 times more likely to die by homicide then Japan, for instance.

I would also suggest that if all the countries counted a live birth as Americans do - we would improve our life expectancy even higher.

http://www.drwalt.com/blog/2009/07/...fant-mortality-rates-in-the-developed-world”/
 
Last edited:
The Prof said:
tell it to the president of the canadian medical assn

"(Canadians) have to understand that the system that we have right now - if it keeps on going without change - is not sustainable," said Doig
Click to expand...

Change within the framework of Canada's current system.

No one, I repeat no one, is advocating a move away from Canada's current system that does not charge at the point of service.

Why do you constantly misrepresent Dr. Doig's criticisms to further your own emotional agenda?

It is dishonest to say the least.
 
misrepresent?

all i did was QUOTE her

LOLOLOLOLOL!!!
 
The Prof said:
misrepresent?

all i did was QUOTE her

LOLOLOLOLOL!!!
Click to expand...

Laughable.

You did not just "quote" Doig.

You "quoted" her words, out of context I might add, in an ill attempt to further your own agenda by misrepresenting the framework in which she was illustrating Canada's health problems.

Her views have never advocated a move away from a system that does not charge at the point of service - never.
 
Last edited:
The Prof said:
misrepresent?

all i did was QUOTE her

LOLOLOLOLOL!!!
Click to expand...

The Canadian Press: Overhauling health-care system tops agenda at annual meeting of Canada's doctors

Doig, who has had a full-time family practice in Saskatoon for 30 years, acknowledges that when physicians have talked about changing the health-care system in the past, they've been accused of wanting an American-style structure. She insists that's not the case.

"It's not about choosing between an American system or a Canadian system," said Doig. "The whole thing is about looking at what other people do."
Click to expand...

The other doctor who spoke at the event, Dr. Robert Ouellet, had this to say:

His thoughts on the issue are already clear. Ouellet has been saying since his return that "a health-care revolution has passed us by," that it's possible to make wait lists disappear while maintaining universal coverage and "that competition should be welcomed, not feared."

In other words, Ouellet believes there could be a role for private health-care delivery within the public system.

He has also said the Canadian system could be restructured to focus on patients if hospitals and other health-care institutions received funding based on the patients they treat, instead of an annual, lump-sum budget. This "activity-based funding" would be an incentive to provide more efficient care, he has said.
Click to expand...

Note that neither wants to loose UHC, they want to make a working UHC system.
 
The_Limt said:
...the framework in which she was illustrating Canada's health problems...
Click to expand...

LOLOL!

i know

things, according to the dear doc, are "not sustainable"

ie, they're heading towards BANKRUPTCY

not towards AMERICA, sure, indeed

but towards BANKRUPTCY!

why, the prez of cma says things are "IMPLODING!"

LOLOL!
 
The Prof said:
LOLOL!

i know

things, according to the dear doc, are "not sustainable"

ie, they're heading towards BANKRUPTCY

not towards AMERICA, sure, indeed

but towards BANKRUPTCY!

why, the prez of cma says things are "IMPLODING!"

LOLOL!
Click to expand...

And she also

Says that things can

be

LOLOL!

fixed within the Canadian

System

LOLOLOLOLZ!!
 
well, good for her!

except she better hurry!

cuz she says things are IMPLODING!

remember?

and, hey, how 'bout them 6000 surgeries cancelled in secret?

the closing of a quarter of vancouver's facilities?

sounds bad, don't you think?

not a very pretty headline, that

and don't forget---all those people being denied life saving medicine and treatment and service and care---they already paid for all that stuff, didn't they, thru their taxes?

i mean, they've all been promised all their lives they'd be taken care of when they most needed the help, haven't they?

isn't that how it works?

i, for one, would just hate to be one of those 6G

you?

you wouldn't be defending the crafting of that secret memo, now, would you?

just imagine what might have happened if it weren't leaked!

you didn't forget about those poor 6000, did you?

where's your compassion?

how could you be so thoughtless?
 
The Prof said:
LOLOL!

i know

things, according to the dear doc, are "not sustainable"

ie, they're heading towards BANKRUPTCY

not towards AMERICA, sure, indeed

but towards BANKRUPTCY!

why, the prez of cma says things are "IMPLODING!"

LOLOL!
Click to expand...

You tried using Doig's comments to pimp your warped crusade against a public option.

You took her out of context.

You considerably misrepresented her views.

You failed to comprehend her words in the appropriate context.

Quoting Doig to further the 'anti-public option' cause is akin to a struggling undergraduate student utilizing Ayn Rand for the promotion of statism, and the eradication of a free market.

The truth is, you would have never used Doig as a source had you done but five minutes research into her record.

Don't worry though prof. I'm sure a dozen more "LOL's" and you'll have wormed your way out of another one.
 
The Prof said:
you didn't forget about those poor 6000, did you?

where's your compassion?

how could you be so thoughtless?
Click to expand...

Maybe he or she is concerned about the 47 million in his/her own country without health insurance.

Nevertheless it is relevent.

The issue is your gross misuse of a source.
 
Last edited:
The_Limt said:
You tried using Doig's comments to pimp your warped crusade against a public option.

You took her out of context.

You considerably misrepresented her views.

You failed to comprehend her words in the appropriate context.

Quoting Doig to further the 'anti-public option' cause is akin to a struggling undergraduate student utilizing Ayn Rand for the promotion of statism, and the eradication of a free market.

The truth is, you would have never used Doig as a source had you done but five minutes research into her record.

Don't worry though prof. I'm sure a dozen more "LOL's" and you'll have wormed your way out of another one.
Click to expand...

she said it's "not sustainable"

context

motivation

there ya go
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom