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CIA 'threatened September 11 suspect's children'

Quote from Inspector Generals report.

Any more questions??

The detention of terror suspects, I agree with, as long as we follow proper protocols, they are provided with access to an attorney, and they aren't held without charges indefinitely.

However, torture of suspects has not been shown to be more effective than normal interrogation techniques. In fact, it's less effective and trustworthy.

Your source doesn't say what you are claiming it says. Just FYI.
 
This country has never before countenanced state sponsored torture as a legitimate interrogation tool. That is inexcusable & deserves to be punished.

Are you serious?? Techniques have been used throughout our history that would be considered torture today by the military, CIA, FBI, and the police. This is nothing new.
 
First of all....All the facts are not out yet & I believe actual acts of murder will be proven.
Second, threatening a prisoner with a drill or with execution is indeed torture under most internationally accepted treaties. (I believe including the Geneva conventions we signed)

Well we all know how successful you've been with "proving" anything with all the "facts". You make a bunch of bogus claims that are in no way backed up and then puff up your chest going "Well, I'll be proven right in the future"

:roll:

War zone, nice try though...

Goal posts keep on moving for you Mr. V.

So George Bush has "protected" us from Terrorist attacks "on our soil" by bringing War to Our Soil then? The deaths on Our Soil is okay with him because he declared war, so he's not responsable for those terrorist attacks but Clinton is?

So If Clinton had just said "we're at war" with them then hey, we couldn't even blame him for 9/11 because it seems to you from your earlier statements that attacks on the U.S. mainland is no different than attacks on embassies because "its our soil".

Also, I'm confused....when'd we declare war in Istanbul? Or did declaring a "war on terror" just make it so you could justify any attack to be "part of the war" and thus keep Bush's record's perfect.

I'm just trying to clarify. Your goal posts have sprouted legs and are running all over the field V so just trying to see where this ball needs to be kicked.
 
Are you serious?? Techniques have been used throughout our history that would be considered torture today by the military, CIA, FBI, and the police. This is nothing new.

Show me links where torture techniques were officially authorized by our government to interrogate prisoners? (prior to Bush that is)
 
The detention of terror suspects, I agree with, as long as we follow proper protocols, they are provided with access to an attorney, and they aren't held without charges indefinitely.

However, torture of suspects has not been shown to be more effective than normal interrogation techniques. In fact, it's less effective and trustworthy.

Your source doesn't say what you are claiming it says. Just FYI.

I don't see how anyone can't read exactly what it says, but here is some more from the IG report:

Detainee information has assisted in the identification of terrorists. For example, information from Abu Zubaydah helped lead to the identification of Jose Padilla and Binyam Muhammed--operatives who had plans to detonate a uranium-topped dirty bomb in either Washington, D.C. or New York City. Riduan "Hambali" Isomuddin provided information that led to the arrest of previously unknown members of an Al Qa'ida cell in Karachi. They were designated as pilots for an aircraft attack against the United States. Many other detainees, including lower-level detainees such as Zubayr and Majid Khan, have provided leads to other terrorists, but probably the most prolific has been Khalid Shaykh Muhammad. He provided information that helped lead to the arrest of terrorists including Sayfullah Paracha and his son Uzair Paracha, businessmen whom Khalid Shaykh Muhammad planned to use to smuggle explosives into the United States; Saleh Almari, a sleeper operative in New York; and Majid Khan, an operative who could enter the United States easily and was tasked to research attacks [redacted]. Khalid Shaykh Muhammad's information also led to the investigation and prosecution of Iyman Faris, the truck driver arrested in early 2003 in Ohio. [redacted]

Detainees, both planners and operatives, have also made the Agency aware of several plots planned for the United States and around the world. The plots identify plans to [redacted] attack the U.S. Consulate in Karachi, Pakistan; hijack aircraft to fly into Heathrow Airport [redacted] loosen track spikes in an attempt to derail a train in the United States; [redacted]; blow up several U.S. gas stations to create panic and havoc; hijack and fly an airplane into the tallest building in California in a west coast version of the World Trade Center attack; cut the lines of suspension bridges in New York in an effort to make them collapse; [redacted].

...

The waterboard has been used on three detainees....

Prior to the use of EITs, Abu Zubaydah provided information for [redacted] intelligence reports. Interrogators applied the waterboard to Abu Zubaydah at least 83 times during August 2002. [The report explains that each application of water is counted separately, and most of the 83 applications lasted less than ten seconds.] During the period between the end of the use of the waterboard and 30 April 2003, he provided information for approximately [redacted] intelligence reports. It is not possible to say definitively that the waterboard is the reason for Abu Zubaydah's increased production, or if another factor, such as the length of detention, was the catalyst. Since the use of the waterboard, however, Abu Zubaydah has appeared to be cooperative.

With respect to A-Nashiri, [redacted] reported two waterboard sessions in November 2002, after which the psychologist/interrogators determined that Al-Nashiri was compliant....Because of the litany of techniques used by different interrogators over a relatively short period of time, it is difficult to identify exactly why Al-Nashiri became more willing to provide information. However, following the use of EITs, he provided information about his most current operational planning and [redacted] as opposed to the historical information he provided before the use of EITs.

On the other hand, Khalid Shaykh Muhammad, an accomplished resistor, provided only a few intelligence reports prior to the use of the waterboard, and analysis of that information revealed that much of it was outdated, inaccurate, or incomplete.
 
With all due respect, Gill, the information you just provided says exactly what I just told you...that torture interrogation works no better (and perhaps worse) than normal interrogation techniques. Most of the interrogation used that provided useful information DID NOT INVOLVE torture.

Here is what torture accomplishd:

Prior to the use of EITs, Abu Zubaydah provided information for [redacted] intelligence reports. Interrogators applied the waterboard to Abu Zubaydah at least 83 times during August 2002. [The report explains that each application of water is counted separately, and most of the 83 applications lasted less than ten seconds.] During the period between the end of the use of the waterboard and 30 April 2003, he provided information for approximately [redacted] intelligence reports. It is not possible to say definitively that the waterboard is the reason for Abu Zubaydah's increased production, or if another factor, such as the length of detention, was the catalyst. Since the use of the waterboard, however, Abu Zubaydah has appeared to be cooperative.

With respect to A-Nashiri, [redacted] reported two waterboard sessions in November 2002, after which the psychologist/interrogators determined that Al-Nashiri was compliant....Because of the litany of techniques used by different interrogators over a relatively short period of time, it is difficult to identify exactly why Al-Nashiri became more willing to provide information. However, following the use of EITs, he provided information about his most current operational planning and [redacted] as opposed to the historical information he provided before the use of EITs.

On the other hand, Khalid Shaykh Muhammad, an accomplished resistor, provided only a few intelligence reports prior to the use of the waterboard, and analysis of that information revealed that much of it was outdated, inaccurate, or incomplete.

And, a number of FBI field agents have noted that torture is significantly less effective than EIT. For the price (our national reputation), the information was gained was insufficient.

thanks for playing.
 
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Well we all know how successful you've been with "proving" anything with all the "facts". You make a bunch of bogus claims that are in no way backed up and then puff up your chest going "Well, I'll be proven right in the future"

Just keep watching the news.;)

Edit: Would you point out some of these "Bogus Claims" you allude to above?
 
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With all due respect, Gill, the information you just provided says exactly what I just told you...that torture interrogation works no better (and perhaps worse) than normal interrogation techniques. thanks for playing.

Gotcha... so when the IG report say that all three of these terrorists starting singing like canaries after being water boarded, then in your mind, it had nothing to do with it...

How's life at fantasy island.. :roll:

You're one of those people that wouldn't believe anything that disputed your predetermined beliefs. Have a nice day.
 
Gotcha... so when the IG report say that all three of these terrorists starting singing like canaries after being water boarded, then in your mind, it had nothing to do with it...

How's life at fantasy island.. :roll:

You're one of those people that wouldn't believe anything that disputed your predetermined beliefs. Have a nice day.

Clearly you didn't even read your own source, Gill. ;)
 
Gotcha... so when the IG report say that all three of these terrorists starting singing like canaries after being water boarded, then in your mind, it had nothing to do with it...

Problem is they started to sing fairy tales to stop the torture. Show us any report that says torture actually resulted in good information that wouldn't have been gotten with normal techniques.
 
Problem is they started to sing fairy tales to stop the torture. Show us any report that says torture actually resulted in good information that wouldn't have been gotten with normal techniques.

So all the other terrorists they arrested based on the "fairy tales" didn't happen??

following the use of EITs, he provided information about his most current operational planning and [redacted] as opposed to the historical information he provided before the use of EITs.

Seems clear to me.
 
Show me links where torture techniques were officially authorized by our government to interrogate prisoners? (prior to Bush that is)

That's easy.... here's a little from WW2:
The Americans had used methods similar to those employed by the SS in Dachau. … Worse still were the mock executions, where the men were led off in hoods, while their guards told them they were approaching the gallows. Prisoners were actually lifted bodily off the ground to convince them they were about to swing. More conventional methods of torture included kicks to the groin, deprivation of sleep and food and savage beatings. When the Americans set up a commission of inquiry into the methods used by their investigators, they found that, of the 139 cases examined, 137 had “had their testicles permanently destroyed by kicks received from the American War Crimes Investigation team.”

within a year of the end of the war, the priorities had changed to concentrated intelligence-gathering about the Russians. Anyone of any nationality who had had any contact with the Soviet Zone as a deserter, refugee or ex-POW of the Russians and who fell into British or American hands could find himself in one of these interrogation centers, and exposed to appalling brutality. Among these were actual Soviet agents … Their methods included, among other things, savage beatings, starvation, deprivation of sleep, and removal of clothing. Men were kept standing for hours. Some only made it to interrogation on all fours. Many never came out alive … In the British-run prisons, when nothing more could be got out of a prisoner he was brought before a secret military court where he would be tried on a trumped-up charge; his silence was ensured by a severe prison sentence. The Political Branch of the British Control Commission soon stopped that particular practice. According to one Political Branch document, a sentence of any kind could not be imposed on someone “whose only crime is to have had the misfortune to acquire a too detailed knowledge of our methods of interrogation.”
Cruel Allied Occupiers - The New York Review of Books

Let me know if you want more. I'll even teach you how to use Google.
 
Just keep watching the news.;)

Edit: Would you point out some of these "Bogus Claims" you allude to above?

Paraphrasing a bit.

In regards to the health care protests in general.

"The majority of and the loudest protesters at any of these rallies are republican operatives, paid by the RNC and the health care industry."

"These protests are staged events with many of the same people appearing across the country and paid by the RNC"

In regards to the Heather Blish:

"Now we have proof of the GOP Operatives charge"

"Because she is the first GOP Operative caught in a lie"

"I think its mroe likely than not that she was there at the urging of and behest or truly acting as an operative of the GOP. Can I prove it? Not yet but I'll bet.."

That's not even going into your idiotic accusations of sedition.

You have a history on this forum in short order of making outrageous, outlandish, extreme claims based on little to no facts then when you get called on it whinging about how its "your opinion" and telling us to "just wait, facts will come out".

Well guess what, facts AREN'T out that support the idiotic things you claim and just stating "They'll come out in time" and hiding about your "opinion" doesn't protect people from riping your baseless, worthless, tiredly repetitive accusations and claims to shreds ...especially since they're put together so shabbily in the first place.
 
Gotcha... so when the IG report say that all three of these terrorists starting singing like canaries after being water boarded, then in your mind, it had nothing to do with it...

How's life at fantasy island.. :roll:

You're one of those people that wouldn't believe anything that disputed your predetermined beliefs. Have a nice day.

Gill I have a question on which of the 183 sessions of waterboarding did KSM start singing like a canary? How about Abu Zubaydah (who wasn't a member of al-qaeda) which of the 83 sessions did he sing on?

Al-Nashiri most people don't even talk about to justify torture as he was a prime example of how worthless torture was. In his sessions Nashiri made 7 false confessions:

1. The French Merchant Vessel Limburg incident
2. The USS Cole
3. Rockets in Saudi Arabia
4. Plans to bomb American ships in the gulf
5. A relationship with those committing bombings in Saudi Arabia
6. Bin Laden having a nuclear weapon
7. Plan to highjack a plane and crash it into a ship

Now waterboarding was never intended to get accurate information when we learned the technique from the Koreans they had been using it to elicit false confessions. If it was such an effective technique they wouldn't have had to use it over 80 times in a single month on two different prisoners.
 
Gill I have a question on which of the 183 sessions of waterboarding did KSM start singing like a canary? How about Abu Zubaydah (who wasn't a member of al-qaeda) which of the 83 sessions did he sing on?

Al-Nashiri most people don't even talk about to justify torture as he was a prime example of how worthless torture was. In his sessions Nashiri made 7 false confessions:

1. The French Merchant Vessel Limburg incident
2. The USS Cole
3. Rockets in Saudi Arabia
4. Plans to bomb American ships in the gulf
5. A relationship with those committing bombings in Saudi Arabia
6. Bin Laden having a nuclear weapon
7. Plan to highjack a plane and crash it into a ship

Now waterboarding was never intended to get accurate information when we learned the technique from the Koreans they had been using it to elicit false confessions. If it was such an effective technique they wouldn't have had to use it over 80 times in a single month on two different prisoners.

You seem to have all the answers, so you tell me.

A link to your claims would be nice.
 
Your dodge wont work. I asked for acts that were officially authorized by our government, not crimes committed by individuals.

How about some proof that this was not at the direction of the U.S. government.
 
You seem to have all the answers, so you tell me.

A link to your claims would be nice.

Which of my claims do you think are in dispute? Let me know so I can provide sources.
 
Paraphrasing a bit.

In regards to the health care protests in general.

"The majority of and the loudest protesters at any of these rallies are republican operatives, paid by the RNC and the health care industry."

"These protests are staged events with many of the same people appearing across the country and paid by the RNC"

In regards to the Heather Blish:

"Now we have proof of the GOP Operatives charge"

"Because she is the first GOP Operative caught in a lie"

"I think its mroe likely than not that she was there at the urging of and behest or truly acting as an operative of the GOP. Can I prove it? Not yet but I'll bet.."

That's not even going into your idiotic accusations of sedition.

You have a history on this forum in short order of making outrageous, outlandish, extreme claims based on little to no facts then when you get called on it whinging about how its "your opinion" and telling us to "just wait, facts will come out".

Well guess what, facts AREN'T out that support the idiotic things you claim and just stating "They'll come out in time" and hiding about your "opinion" doesn't protect people from riping your baseless, worthless, tiredly repetitive accusations and claims to shreds ...especially since they're put together so shabbily in the first place.

& I still stand by those allegations. The fact that ironclad proof may take more than a few weeks to emerge, does not mean I am wrong. (Often proof takes years to come out...but in this case I would guess we'll have our proof in fairly short order...I'd guess within 6 months.
If your argument is that I have to provide immediate proof to support an allegation, no investigation in history would have succeeded with such a short ...."Times Up" .....limitt placed on it.
 
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