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Tories "will scrap hunting ban"

Wessexman said:
It is my view that society should be arranged to help man fulfill his needs and potential. The economy is very much part of society. Just about everyone believes similar, even you. Don't pretend you view of man is neutral nor that pretending people should simply be allowed to choose in an economy that is part of a society, full of power relationships and state intervention is neutral either.



It is not community work and please try and not be offensive to my religious views. Have you ever read Lord Northbourne? I recommend his work.




I have my views on society. It is pretty much excepted most people have higher needs, hence Maslow's place in psychology. Again don't pretend your view of man is neutral nor that our society is.

You have a naive view of the economy, as if it isn't very much part of society and as if there isn't very much a massive load of state intervention in our economy anyway. Corporations for instance are creatures of state fiat which separate ownership from control, in contradiction to common law ownership, and encourage irresponsibility and consolidation.

Do I have a right as a 12 year old to work done a mine-shaft and not go to school? Or is the fuller development of my intellectual faculties more important?




The economy is part of society. I believe in making it better for man in a libertarian and decentralist fashion like replacing most taxes with a locally collected land value tax and encouraging mutual banking.

If I followed your advise I pretty much had better give up on my social views and my wish to decentralise gov't as these are based partly on my views of man which are in contradiction to crass materialism. Perhaps I should just become a Thatcherite? Maybe there is no such thing as society? And why shouldn't I embrace the EU? Nations don't matter, the sooner we have world gov't the better.

Of course I'd still actually be trying to enact my view of man, it would just be the prevailing consumerist, corporate-capitalist one.
These moral boundaries are based on a view of man as is my idea of spirituality. If you believe in these rules then you go beyond the Thatcherism you are espousing.

I don't think Kirkpatrick Sale or Lewis Mumford could be said to be and Peter Kropotkin was an anarchist. There are many more.
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Im not pretending anything. Our society SHOULD be neutral and is. The people should make there own choices. This ideology is great, for the fascist religious whack job who intends to create a society based off Christian fundamentals. It is religious baloney. Its no better than Iran's theocracy. Thanks for sharing it anyway.
 
kaya'08 said:
Im not pretending anything. Our society SHOULD be neutral and is.
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No it isn't. It cannot be, all societies help to encourage and development certain ideas and relationships among men. That is what society is about. Our society is no different, it has ways operating that reflect its view of man and which help to encourage some relationships and behaviours and discourage others.
The people should make there own choices. This ideology is great, for the fascist religious whack job who intends to create a society based off Christian fundamentals. It is religious baloney. Its no better than Iran's theocracy. Thanks for sharing it anyway.
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This is not an argument but a few offensive assertions. Are you saying Peter Kropotkin or Thomas Jefferson were fascist, religious nutjobs? Not that I see anything wrong with having a Christian society, which incidentally has little to do with the progressive, radical ideology of fascism.

If you really understood what I advocate you could hardly call me fascist. I believe in decentralised govt and a decentralised economy, hardly fascist, I believe in widespread ownership of productive property, hardly fascist, so that as many families can own some as possible, I believe in greatly reducing state intervention in the economy while providing the best arena for individual freedom, development and for strong healthy communities, hardly fascist. I believe generally in doing this in a quite hands-off, decentralist and libertarian way by laying a framework such as using a Georgist-style land value tax system while reducing or removing most taxes on labour and capital and encouraging mutual banking so average people can turn their real estate, durable goods and even labour time into credit to run a business with very low interest rates. Hardly fascist.

Btw I don't believe in taking much direct action against consumerism. I believe it is a product of our corrupt, state-driven economy and minus the factors that cause that there would be a lot less of it. It is needed for one because state intervention encourages economic consolidation and increased production runs so that the economy becomes a supply-push based on manufacturers trying to create demand for their products rather than demand-pull economy where consumer demand is the driving factor of the economy.

I'm disappointed in you Kaya, you have rarely actually engaged with my points or shown you comprehend what I'm talking about.
 
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kaya'08 said:
Im not pretending anything. Our society SHOULD be neutral and is. The people should make there own choices. This ideology is great, for the fascist religious whack job who intends to create a society based off Christian fundamentals. It is religious baloney. Its no better than Iran's theocracy. Thanks for sharing it anyway.
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Or,,,understanding a thing Wessexman just tried to relate to you. :roll:

Religion WASN'T MENTIONED.:roll:

Good Night all.
 
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Wessexman said:
No it isn't. It cannot be, all societies help to encourage and development certain ideas and relationships among men. That is what society is about. Our society is no different, it has ways operating that reflect its view of man and which help to encourage some relationships and behaviours and discourage others.
This is not an argument but a few offensive assertions. Are you saying Peter Kropotkin or Thomas Jefferson were fascist, religious nutjobs? Not that I see anything wrong with having a Christian society, which incidentally has little to do with the progressive, radical ideology of fascism.

If you really understood what I advocate you could hardly call me fascist. I believe in decentralised govt and a decentralised economy, hardly fascist, I believe in widespread ownership of productive property, hardly fascist, so that as many families can own some as possible, I believe in greatly reducing state intervention in the economy while providing the best arena for individual freedom, development and for strong healthy communities, hardly fascist. I believe generally in doing this in a quite hands-off, decentralist and libertarian way by laying a framework such as using a Georgist-style land value tax system while reducing or removing most taxes on labour and capital and encouraging mutual banking so average people can turn their real estate, durable goods and even labour time into credit to run a business with very low interest rates. Hardly fascist.

Btw I don't believe in taking much direct action against consumerism. I believe it is a product of our corrupt, state-driven economy and minus the factors that cause that there would be a lot less of it. It is needed for one because state intervention encourages economic consolidation and increased production runs so that the economy becomes a supply-push based on manufacturers trying to create demand for their products rather than demand-pull economy where consumer demand is the driving factor of the economy.

I'm disappointed in you Kaya, you have rarely actually engaged with my points or shown you comprehend what I'm talking about.
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Well ive had an aweful day so sorry if ive come across a bit of an arse. Maybe ill get back to you tommorrow. Im tired and im going to bed.
 
Goshin said:
Being American, I find it very intresting that this issue provoked so many posts and so much passion. If anyone does fox hunting in that manner in the US, I'm not aware of it, though it is possible.

In some hunting sports, we do use dogs, but primarily to find and/or corner the critter in question before it is shot dead, or in the case of birds to find and retrieve same after the shot.

Not my country, so I have little opinion on the matter.

One thing someone said, about a fox hunt group tearing up his vegetable garden: yeah, that definately shouldn't be allowed, or at a minimum suitable compensation plus a little extra for the bother and mess. Are the hunts allowed to cross other's private property without leave? Sounds like they are.

I grew up a farmboy, and I hunt sometimes, but my family tradition was to make a clean kill with one shot if at all possible, in order to be humane. It wasn't some big philosophy, just my Dad said "if you can't make a clean kill, better not to take the shot. Don't want it to suffer more than we can help."

Otherhandwise, I can see where Wessexman is coming from: if these hunts take place in the countryside, it seems like it is the business of the folks living in the countryside whether they want it to be legal or not, and what sort of regulations might apply.

None of my business really, I'm on the other side of the big pond. :mrgreen:
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Thank you for your view.
This issue has been debated and visited many times and provokes alot of feelings from all sides.
It usually goes down to two sides. Pros and Antis.
But can also go down country/city lines

I have no problem with killing foxes when necessary, kill it in a humane way that can cause the least amount of pain and suffering to the animal.
 
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Laila said:
Is it just me who had a image of that? lol
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I think the image of hunting deer with dogs is just as bad, banned in Scotland in 1959, England in 2004, still legal in NI I think.
 
Realist1 said:
Here in Virginia, it's much better to have a Hunt, than have a bloody Deer come crashing thru your Car Window at 65 MPH. We've well over 300,000 of the bloody buggers in our State alone. Plus we have a Program to turn in the Game for the Needy. :)

Venison, for the Poor.:lol:
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do you use a pack of dogs and men women and children riding horses to hunt the deer?

In my second home in Croatia, wild boar hunting was regulated to certain area's in the north and is regulated to seasons ect, this was because they were hunted to near extinction, they are now a problem, I shot one that was raiding the grape vines at the house in Drnis, fantastic eating.

In the Delnice national park, one of a number of national parks, in the Hotel in the park I ate hunters grill which was made up of culled Deer, Bear, and Boar, all shot, we also have Wolves there, according to the people who run Delnice NP when there are enough wolves the should not be a need to cull deer and boar, they will then if it is needed have to cull the Wolves by humane methods.
 
B L Zeebub said:
I think the image of hunting deer with dogs is just as bad, banned in Scotland in 1959, England in 2004, still legal in NI I think.
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Is it really?
Why is NI exempt?
 
Realist1 said:
Here in Virginia, it's much better to have a Hunt, than have a bloody Deer come crashing thru your Car Window at 65 MPH. We've well over 300,000 of the bloody buggers in our State alone. Plus we have a Program to turn in the Game for the Needy. :)

Venison, for the Poor.:lol:
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Yeah .... because foxes regularly dive infront of our cars

And besides, i highly doubt you hunt in the same way that is done here. Do you kill the deer in one shot?
 
B L Zeebub said:
do you use a pack of dogs and men women and children riding horses to hunt the deer?

In my second home in Croatia, wild boar hunting was regulated to certain area's in the north and is regulated to seasons ect, this was because they were hunted to near extinction, they are now a problem, I shot one that was raiding the grape vines at the house in Drnis, fantastic eating.

In the Delnice national park, one of a number of national parks, in the Hotel in the park I ate hunters grill which was made up of culled Deer, Bear, and Boar, all shot, we also have Wolves there, according to the people who run Delnice NP when there are enough wolves the should not be a need to cull deer and boar, they will then if it is needed have to cull the Wolves by humane methods.
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Not needed. We've plenty of "Game Trails" to follow. I'll make a tree stand, and let the deer find me.;) We've National and State Parks the Game reside in.

Since we've very few "Natural Predators" around in the South, the Hunt is needed to Cull the Herds. Or,,, they starve to death in the winter. We've no Wolves returned as of yet, but the Coyotes are making a come back. Also,,,we're getting more and more Wild Boar. Nasty creatures,,,they breed like pigs.:lol: And destroy the forest, farmland, and are dangerous to our domestic livestock, and Humans...

They're shot on sight. Ahhh,,,"Smoked Ham".;)
 
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B L Zeebub said:
I think the image of hunting deer with dogs is just as bad, banned in Scotland in 1959, England in 2004, still legal in NI I think.
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I don't want to give you the wrong impression. We've still some folks that keep "Hunting Packs"...I never liked it myself. I prefer to Hunt. :lol: I consider that "Lazy" in using dogs.

I've a large freezer that's full year round. Nothing's wasted.
 
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Laila said:
'Shoot foxes'? I beg your pardon?
Do you know how their 'culling' happens?
They get dressed up, drink wine. Then let loose a pack of dogs to chase teh fox until it is exhausted then kill it and/or tear it apart.
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That may be the custom, but really all you need for fox hunting is a firearm, some ammo, and some foxes

Laila said:
They do not do it for culling. They do it for sport. Difference.
It is one thing killing to protect farm animals, go ahead. Bullet to the head.
There are other methods of killing a animal.
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Actually some do, just like in the US with deer. If it's for sport, they don't seriously reduce populations, and they don't "torture" the animal, why is it any of your business?

Laila said:
And at least i have the good grace to be honest about it. Wessex seems in denial when he says there is no class issue undertones for both sides.
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This isn't about class. Many hunters in the US are avid hunters. Some of the paraphanalia and ritual may be exclusive to the rich, but you don't need all of that to hunt foxes. Also, even if yu premise is correct, why the Hell is it any of your business?
 
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Laila said:
Yeah .... because foxes regularly dive infront of our cars

And besides, i highly doubt you hunt in the same way that is done here. Do you kill the deer in one shot?
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It depends. During "Bow Season",,,I end up having to do some tracking. I shoot for a Lung/Heart. I admit it isn't quick sometimes. But effective. We have different restrictions imposed on us during the Hunting Season. Since I'm not interested in a "Trophy", I prefer a quick shot in the head, with a 30 Cal. lever action Winchester rifle. From my Grandfather.:)

That's quick.
 
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DrunkenAsparagus said:
That may be the custom, but really all you need for fox hunting is a firearm, some ammo, and some foxes



Actually some do, just like in the US with deer. If it's for sport, they don't seriously reduce populations, and they don't "torture" the animal, why is it any of your business?



This isn't about class. Many hunters in the US are avid hunters. Some of the paraphanalia and ritual may be exclusive to the rich, but you don't need all of that to hunt foxes. Also, even if yu premise is correct, why the Hell is it any of your business?
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I think the mistake you're making here is assuming that criticism of fox hunts is critism of hunting in general, and that the points we're making about UK fox-hunts are also criticisms of US hunting. You're taking the arguments out of context, basically.

Hunting in the US is pretty disimliar to the methods of fox-hunting parties in the UK, which is what we're talking about in this thread. What we're saying here about class issues and cruelty isn't necessarily a dig at US hunters, because it's not you guys, nor your methods, that we're debating.
 
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Anima said:
I think the mistake you're making here is assuming that criticism of fox hunts is critism of hunting in general, and that the points we're making about UK fox-hunts are also criticisms of US hunting. You're taking the arguments out of context, basically.

Hunting in the US is pretty disimliar to the methods of fox-hunting parties in the UK, which is what we're talking about in this thread. What we're saying here about class issues and cruelty isn't necessarily a dig at US hunters, because it's not you guys, nor your methods, that we're debating.
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I'm aware of the regalia that often goes with fox hunting. That's why I mentioned it. If fox hunting is just a domain of the rich, again, why is it any of your business? The rich also have nicer cars, homes, and entertainment systems than the rest of us. The griping about "class" seems petty to me
 
DrunkenAsparagus said:
I'm aware of the regalia that often goes with fox hunting. That's why I mentioned it. If fox hunting is just a domain of the rich, again, why is it any of your business? The rich also have nicer cars, homes, and entertainment systems than the rest of us. The griping about "class" seems petty to me
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Why is it any of our business? The same reason we created animal rights? And don't turn this into a class issue your complicating the issue at hand.
 
Anima said:
I think the mistake you're making here is assuming that critism of fox hunts is critism of hunting in general, and that the points we're making about UK fox-hunts are also criticisms of US hunting. You're taking the arguments out of context, basically.

Hunting in the US is pretty disimliar to the methods of fox-hunting parties in the UK, which is what we're talking about in this thread. What we're saying here about class issues and cruelty isn't necessarily a dig at US hunters, because it's not you guys, nor your methods, that we're debating.
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I look at it this, as one that would lose his/her Livestock to a Predator. (Live Stock dies,,,I lose).: You're Happy if I can do nothing about it..:roll:
 
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kaya'08 said:
Why is it any of our business? The same reason we created animal rights? And don't turn this into a class issue your complicating the issue at hand.
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Someone else was complaining about "class" in the beginning of this thread. I was responding to it. I'm not in favor of having dogs tear a fox apart alive, but I'm asking, as long as it meets certain reasonable regulations, why is hunting any of the government's business?
 
Realist1 said:
I look at it this, as one that would lose his/her Livestock to a Predator. (Live Stock dies,,,I lose).: You're Happy if I can do noting about it..:roll:
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If I'd actually said anything even vaguely like that, you might have a point. All I said was that criticism of the British practice of fox-hunting should not automatically be taken as criticism of hunting in other nations and hunting using other methods.
 
DrunkenAsparagus said:
Someone else was complaining about "class" in the beginning of this thread. I was responding to it. I'm not in favor of having dogs tear a fox apart alive, but I'm asking, as long as it meets certain reasonable regulations, why is hunting any of the government's business?
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If this hunting harms the enviournment due to the yearly, and large losses, of fox numbers, therefore damaging the sensitive balance of the ecosystem, i believe its every right of the government to get involved.

Another reason imo, fox hunting isnt something that can be regulated by government regulators. It may be an illegal practise to use dogs during fox hunting, but who says they wont use that method of hunting against the Foxes? And if so who will see or say anything? Its the countryside. So they just banned the practice outright. Again, imo.
 
DrunkenAsparagus said:
I'm aware of the regalia that often goes with fox hunting. That's why I mentioned it. If fox hunting is just a domain of the rich, again, why is it any of your business? The rich also have nicer cars, homes, and entertainment systems than the rest of us. The griping about "class" seems petty to me
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It's our business because it involves animal cruelty. That's just as unacceptable whether it's being perpetrated by the lord of the manor, or a tramp in the gutter. The class remark was also brought up in response to claims that fox-hunting is a neessary method of pest-control. It's not. It's an upper-class hobby, not the favoured method of culling rural pests, so if we're going to debate, let's call it like it is.
 
Anima said:
If I'd actually said anything even vaguely like that, you might have a point. All I said was that criticism of the British practice of fox-hunting should not automatically be taken as criticism of hunting in other nations and hunting using other methods.
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Right...:lol: I'm reminded of a Ping-Ball Game.:lol:

Have you ever "Hunted"?
 
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Realist1 said:
Right...:lol: I'm reminded of a Ping-Ball Game.:lol:

Have you ever "Hunted"?
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I've accompanied others on hunts, although the only shooting I do is at clay pigeons. Why?

You'll also notice I've stated no opposition to hunting at any point in this thread. I have no particular issue with hunting, or with culling pests. So exactly what about my stating my stance is like a Ping Pong Game?
 
Anima said:
It's our business because it involves animal cruelty. That's just as unacceptable whether it's being perpetrated by the lord of the manor, or a tramp in the gutter. The class remark was also brought up in response to claims that fox-hunting is a neessary method of pest-control. It's not. It's an upper-class hobby, not the favoured method of culling rural pests, so if we're going to debate, let's call it like it is.
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Shooting a fox is no more cruel than eating a hamburger. You don't need to do either, but they both die for one's enjoyment. It is often an upper class hobby, but I already adressed this.
 
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