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CIA report has new details of prisoner abuse

dirtpoorchris said:
CIA report has new details of prisoner abuse - Yahoo! News

And here I thought the tape deleting thingy was a recent event. (Hope this ain't a repeat topic but, I searched.) Is threatening a bound and detained person with imminent death torture?
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The REAL question we all must ask ourselves regarding this debate an be HONEST about it is this; if we knew that these tactics would save 3,000 American lives, would we be okay with it.

If your answer is still no; you have little regard for innocent lives being saved, or you are a rabid partisan who cannot be honest.

This is all about NOTHING and if there happens to be another attack on innocent lives in this country; Obama and his minions OWN this one.
 
PogueMoran said:
US Law applies to people within our custody. Land we're leasing and is under our control would be considered a possession. The fact is we're talking criminal law so it would be the interrogator being subject to this law and him being a citizen of the US makes it applicable.
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Ahhhh, but there is the failure of the Liberals and Leftists desperate efforts to impugn the people who were desperately trying to protect us post 9-11; it isn't American Soil and only the more desperate and outrageous arguments can even suggest such an absurdity.

Gee, those poor terrorists; how DARE our fellow citizens for attempting to protect us from more attacks!! We need to now prosecute them so we can send a message of asinine proportions to all our enemies that we will do NOTHING to bring them to justice and will give them Constitutional rights for no other reason than we can claim to the world we are sooooo much better than our enemies.

I am sure you will enjoy explaining that to the next families who lose loved ones in future terrorist assaults on our country.

:rofl
 
Truth Detector said:
The REAL question we all must ask ourselves regarding this debate an be HONEST about it is this; if we knew that these tactics would save 3,000 American lives, would we be okay with it.

If your answer is still no; you have little regard for innocent lives being saved, or you are a rabid partisan who cannot be honest.

This is all about NOTHING and if there happens to be another attack on innocent lives in this country; Obama and his minions OWN this one.
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You measure one side. Now lets measure another. How many people have died from accidental civilian casualties and from being processed through all entities involved from our occupation of the country?
 
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dragondad said:
Check out these Liberal hippies!

Not as brave and courageous as our right wing torture lovers that's for sure!


Essential Liberties: Retired Generals against torture
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Hyperbolic blather hardly strengthens your weak ineffectual arguments that attempt to impugn and to criminalize the actions of those trying to protect innocent lives from these despotic terrorists.

But alas, your desire and efforts speak volumes to the Alice in Wonderland state of mind we find ourselves in a country that wishes to give rights to terrorists, impugn and prosecute the victors in this effort and where up is down, down is up, and right is wrong and wrong is now right.

Do you honestly think that a bunch of retired generals and officers signing onto a Democrat controlled FORM letter and who were primarily LAWYERS and apparently have the same contorted ideas about the efforts made by those trying to protect us on a Democrat propaganda web site somehow lend more credibility to the absurdity of this effort?

What we DO NOT support are the actions of the select few individuals who were PROSECUTED for illegal torture and humiliation in Iraq acting on their own and those select few soldiers who may have abused/murdered prisoners under their charge before they were transferred. However, what THIS is about is the political efforts to impugn US policy under the previous administration and weaken the ability of our CIA and military personnel to bring these murderous thugs to justice.

Our enemies laugh at us and mock us for being so stupid and weak; and perhaps they are right. Perhaps Osama got us all right; we are too weak and full of our own self perceived righteousness to conduct a war against terror.
 
dirtpoorchris said:
You measure one side. Now lets measure another. How many people have died from accidental civilian casualties and from being processed through all entities involved from our occupation of the country?
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So, when cornered with your own farcical hyperbole, you now want to suggest that our troop’s actions caused the deaths of these civilians and that it was NOT the efforts of the insurgents and terrorists?

What fascinating mental gymnastics it must take to suggest that the efforts of our soldiers to rid the planet of terrorists and remove a despotic regime who desired, developed and wanted to develop more WMD's and had invaded two neighboring nations to further the megalomaniacal efforts of its leaders and who defied the agreements it had signed after being defeated, are to blame.

I am always amused when primarily those with Liberal and Leftist political philosophies, attempt to blame our troops for the efforts of terrorists, thugs and murderers.

I guess for people like you, it doesn't occur to you that if these murderous thugs had not attempted to obstruct the desire of the MAJORITY of the people in Afghanistan and Iraq to have representative Government, no innocent lives would be lost.

I guess for people like you, it doesn't occur to you that these murderous thugs primary strategy was to sway public opinion against the coalition by killing and blowing innocents?

I guess for people like you, it doesn't occur to you that by speaking out against your own and defending the rights of these murderous thugs, you are falling for Osama's tactics and propaganda?

Of course, if you are aware of the above, then perhaps your goal is not to use your common sense and deal with REALITY, but simply to play hyper partisan politics which attempts to impugn those who disagree with your politics in the court public opinion?

Whatever it is, it certainly makes ZERO sense and defies common sense and the REAL implications of our actions.
 
Truth Detector said:
So, when cornered with your own farcical hyperbole, you now want to suggest that our troop’s actions caused the deaths of these civilians and that it was NOT the efforts of the insurgents and terrorists?

What fascinating mental gymnastics it must take to suggest that the efforts of our soldiers to rid the planet of terrorists and remove a despotic regime who desired, developed and wanted to develop more WMD's and had invaded two neighboring nations to further the megalomaniacal efforts of its leaders and who defied the agreements it had signed after being defeated, are to blame.

I am always amused when primarily those with Liberal and Leftist political philosophies, attempt to blame our troops for the efforts of terrorists, thugs and murderers.

I guess for people like you, it doesn't occur to you that if these murderous thugs had not attempted to obstruct the desire of the MAJORITY of the people in Afghanistan and Iraq to have representative Government, no innocent lives would be lost.

I guess for people like you, it doesn't occur to you that these murderous thugs primary strategy was to sway public opinion against the coalition by killing and blowing innocents?

I guess for people like you, it doesn't occur to you that by speaking out against your own and defending the rights of these murderous thugs, you are falling for Osama's tactics and propaganda?

Of course, if you are aware of the above, then perhaps your goal is not to use your common sense and deal with REALITY, but simply to play hyper partisan politics which attempts to impugn those who disagree with your politics in the court public opinion?

Whatever it is, it certainly makes ZERO sense and defies common sense and the REAL implications of our actions.
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I would think it would be half the thugs fault and half our own. You try to take away some lines in the sand but stand firmly behind others. You are a fan of using oppression to gain advantages. But most shouldn't. Keyboard warriors stand behind lots of things but.... in the end they still only use a keyboard.
 
Truth Detector said:
So, when cornered with your own farcical hyperbole, you now want to suggest that our troop’s actions caused the deaths of these civilians and that it was NOT the efforts of the insurgents and terrorists?

What fascinating mental gymnastics it must take to suggest that the efforts of our soldiers to rid the planet of terrorists and remove a despotic regime who desired, developed and wanted to develop more WMD's and had invaded two neighboring nations to further the megalomaniacal efforts of its leaders and who defied the agreements it had signed after being defeated, are to blame.

I am always amused when primarily those with Liberal and Leftist political philosophies, attempt to blame our troops for the efforts of terrorists, thugs and murderers.

I guess for people like you, it doesn't occur to you that if these murderous thugs had not attempted to obstruct the desire of the MAJORITY of the people in Afghanistan and Iraq to have representative Government, no innocent lives would be lost.

I guess for people like you, it doesn't occur to you that these murderous thugs primary strategy was to sway public opinion against the coalition by killing and blowing innocents?

I guess for people like you, it doesn't occur to you that by speaking out against your own and defending the rights of these murderous thugs, you are falling for Osama's tactics and propaganda?

Of course, if you are aware of the above, then perhaps your goal is not to use your common sense and deal with REALITY, but simply to play hyper partisan politics which attempts to impugn those who disagree with your politics in the court public opinion?

Whatever it is, it certainly makes ZERO sense and defies common sense and the REAL implications of our actions.
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First of all, no one blamed "troops"...they did not choose to fight these wars. The Bush administration did. Your plays on topicality is also an impressive game of mental gymnastics. We are not defending the rights of these murderous thugs either. We are defending the moral fabric of the USA, so more people don't want to blow us up. And please for the love of God, get back to me when "the world is rid of terrorists." If you are so gung ho to blow up countries to protects thier MAJORITY opinions, you would love it if Obama invaded NK, Iran, most of Africa, China, Russia, half of South America, Gaza, Pakistan, some of Latin America, and finally, Washington DC.

PS...Obama did not convince me by pure deception into thinking the wars we have chosen to fight are not in the best interest of the US or in the best interest of the thousands of dead civilians who will never get to vote in their new democracy. Bush did.
 
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Truth Detector said:
Ahhhh, but there is the failure of the Liberals and Leftists desperate efforts to impugn the people who were desperately trying to protect us post 9-11; it isn't American Soil and only the more desperate and outrageous arguments can even suggest such an absurdity.

Gee, those poor terrorists; how DARE our fellow citizens for attempting to protect us from more attacks!! We need to now prosecute them so we can send a message of asinine proportions to all our enemies that we will do NOTHING to bring them to justice and will give them Constitutional rights for no other reason than we can claim to the world we are sooooo much better than our enemies.

I am sure you will enjoy explaining that to the next families who lose loved ones in future terrorist assaults on our country.

:rofl
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That's not even close to what I was saying Detector. I'm taking the conservative position here that being the rule of law. The original part was that people were saying a threat to one's life isn't torture. Under US Law it is
 
Reverend_Hellh0und said:
wait, if the law does not apply to them, then thier is no "complaintant", no? ;)
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Again Rev you're focusing on a misdirection. The law applies to the person doing the torture not to the detainee themselves. Its the protections that apply. Really if foreigners didn't have rights under our laws what would stop you from going out and torturing people in other countries?
 
Who cares. They deserve to be tortured. Even if they are just suspects and did no wrong. This is America! We can do whatever we want then tell the folks we pee on that its for their own good. I feel safe now that Saddam was hung. It was so pertinent to my very livelihood. I'm so happy people were incinerated and water boarded and threatened and wire tapped. The terrorists have been defeated!
 
dirtpoorchris said:
Who gives a **** that it was fake. It is not the fake potential loss of life I would be worried about. It is making people sign **** under duress that I worry about. We all know that the torture itself could very well be harmless. But if someone signs something away simply because they signed and where caught up at the wrong moment at the wrong time.... That would be very ****ed up. And who can scale the amount of which this happens?
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Who said anything about "signing" anything?


I just wan't those that would kill you, to be caught beforehand.
 
PogueMoran said:
Again Rev you're focusing on a misdirection. The law applies to the person doing the torture not to the detainee themselves. Its the protections that apply. Really if foreigners didn't have rights under our laws what would stop you from going out and torturing people in other countries?
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thier laws and LE methods. :shrug:
 
Reverend_Hellh0und said:
Who said anything about "signing" anything?


I just wan't those that would kill you, to be caught beforehand.
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Future crime is gay. Learn to accept what happens. Stop those that do bad from doing it again. That's really the best one could do I feel.
 
dirtpoorchris said:
I would think it would be half the thugs fault and half our own.
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Really?? So what did the THUGS have to offer the Afghans and Iraqi's that was better than Democracy and representative government and what tactics of blowing up mosques, markets and schools justified them?

dirtpoorchris said:
You try to take away some lines in the sand but stand firmly behind others.
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I see what you are typing, but it is false. I stand by the FACTS and REALITIES that confront us in this fight against a philosophy that thinks nothing of flying huge airliners filled with innocents into civilian buildings full of innocents, or, who show little compunction with sawing the heads off their captives while filming it for the consumption of others who are filled with nothing but hate.

I find it contemptible for you to attempt to suggest otherwise.

dirtpoorchris said:
You are a fan of using oppression to gain advantages. But most shouldn't.
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Really??? Once more we see you engaging in farcical hyperbolic nonsense about me personally that you would be hard pressed to prove based on my previous comments/arguments.


dirtpoorchris said:
Keyboard warriors stand behind lots of things but.... in the end they still only use a keyboard.
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Really? So you are more than just another keyboard warrior?

This farcical claim desperately attempts to argue that one must be a "warrior" in order to debate war; but it is what can be expected from those who argue against our efforts in this war in a vacuum of the reality and facts of 9-11 that should have awoken us from our deep slumber wallowing in denial.

Divining Geneva Conventions or Constitutional rights for terrorists speaks volumes to the Democrats and Liberal inability to comprehend anything beyond petty partisan hyperbolic blather in their weak attempts to impugn their political opponents in the court of public opinion while lacking any proof to substantiate their asinine claims.
 
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[GOOGLE][/GOOGLE]
Reverend_Hellh0und said:
thier laws and LE methods. :shrug:
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And in other first world countries their laws make it criminal to torture you and you'd be protected under it. So again our laws make it criminal for our citizens to engage in torture.
 
Truth Detector said:
Divining Geneva Conventions or Constitutional rights for terrorists speaks volumes to the Democrats and Liberal inability to comprehend anything beyond petty partisan hyperbolic blather in their weak attempts to impugn their political opponents in the court of public opinion while lacking any proof to substantiate their asinine claims.
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SUSPECTED TERRORISTS! Not proven terrorist. SUSPECTED. Why must you advocate a steady deconstruction of what makes America so great? What if those Americans who were captured in North Korea were tortured because they MIGHT have information or MIGHT be spies. There would be a god damn UPROAR. We stooped lower than communist North Korea and you are somehow, someway for that. I am certainly and profoundly disgusted by such sheer ignorance. This should not be equated to a partisan issue. This is AMERICA.
 
JakeFromWI said:
First of all, no one blamed "troops"...they did not choose to fight these wars.
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The farcical rhetoric you blather this forum suggests that you feel otherwise; who do you think is "killing" all those innocents who are being used as shields by those innocent terrorists we picked up you so desperately wish to divine Constitutional and Geneva Protections for?

JakeFromWI said:
The Bush administration did. Your plays on topicality is also an impressive game of mental gymnastics.
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This is about as asinine as blaming our troops. Again the notion that Bush is guilty of the deaths caused by these thugs, despots and terrorists requires such a vast willful ignorance as to be beyond reasonable comprehension.

I guess it doesn't even begin to occur to you, in your willful hyper partisan denial, that the killing would never have occurred if not for the efforts of these despots, thugs and terrorists?

But again, with that notion, one would also have to make the incredible stretch of willful ignorance to suggest that these thugs, despots and terrorists have a legitimate claim for blowing up mosques, markets and schools and using civilians as human shields to protect themselves while killing coalition forces.

It takes an "Alice in Wonderland" philosophy that avoids reason and logic.

JakeFromWI said:
We are not defending the rights of these murderous thugs either. We are defending the moral fabric of the USA, so more people don't want to blow us up.
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No you are not; you could care less about "moral" fabric. If you did, you wouldn't make such farcical claims against the very people trying to prevent these terrorist thugs from killing people like YOU.

This is nothing less than a partisan politics.

JakeFromWI said:
And please for the love of God, get back to me when "the world is rid of terrorists." If you are so gung ho to blow up countries to protects thier MAJORITY opinions, you would love it if Obama invaded NK, Iran, most of Africa, China, Russia, half of South America, Gaza, Pakistan, some of Latin America, and finally, Washington DC.
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You just cannot seem to help yourself can you? I have highlighted what amounts to nothing more than empty headed hyperbolic nonsense.

JakeFromWI said:
PS...Obama did not convince me by pure deception into thinking the wars we have chosen to fight are not in the best interest of the US or in the best interest of the thousands of dead civilians who will never get to vote in their new democracy. Bush did.
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Bravo; you ended your nonsensical diatribe with what I consider would be the poster child remarks for the Liberal Democrats that naively suggest that Bush forced us into a war of choice with no justification for it while ignoring the FACT that it was a HUGE bi-partisan decision to go to war with a vast coalition of support from 36 other nations and the previous Democrat Administration.

This is almost as absurd, ironic and asinine as the Liberal argument that Bush is such a moron but such a genius that he was able to fool the nation and highly intelligent Liberal Democrats and 36 other nations into a war based on lies.

People like you just cannot help yourselves when it comes to nonsensical hyperbolic talking points can you?
 
It also amazes me how the argument went from "They didn't torture anybody!" to "Torture is OK!"
 
JakeFromWI said:
SUSPECTED TERRORISTS! Not proven terrorist. SUSPECTED.
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What part of non-uniformed enemy combatants captured on foreign soil do you still not comprehend or willfully wallow in denial from?

JakeFromWI said:
Why must you advocate a steady deconstruction of what makes America so great?
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Once again you engage in mindless hyperbole.

JakeFromWI said:
What if those Americans who were captured in North Korea were tortured because they MIGHT have information or MIGHT be spies. There would be a god damn UPROAR.
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Once again you attempt to defend absurdity with more absurdity.

North Korea is a nation represented by a recognized Government with a UNIFORMED military; what part of non-uniformed enemy combatants captured on foreign soil do you still not comprehend or willfully wallow in denial from?

Now with that FACT aside, are you trying to suggest that North Korea does not engage in torture?

JakeFromWI said:
We stooped lower than communist North Korea and you are somehow, someway for that.
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Only because you and other hyper partisan Liberals say so; but a majority in this country would disagree with your desperate hyperbolic assertions about this Government.

JakeFromWI said:
I am certainly and profoundly disgusted by such sheer ignorance. This should not be equated to a partisan issue. This is AMERICA.
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I find this comment profoundly ironic coming from you based on the desperate farcical assertions you have made so far.

Carry on; as Barney Franks once said to a constituent, I would be better served talking to a table.
 
JakeFromWI said:
It also amazes me how the argument went from "They didn't torture anybody!" to "Torture is OK!"
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The argument never was anything you are desperately asserting; the efforts of our CIA and Military did not constitute the definition of torture and the desperate rhetoric you spew suggesting that we are anything like North Korea is beyond detestable.

But then, when you are filled with vitriol and hate for your political enemies, this kind of diatribe is to be expected. Honesty, the truth and the facts have no place in your desperate attempts to impugn this nation and its administration for attempting to protect it's citizens and others.

Here is the UN definition so that you are not continuing to wallow in such obvious denial:

Definition of torture
Article 1 of the Convention defines torture as:

Any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.

– Convention Against Torture, Article 1.1

Actions which fall short of torture may still constitute cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment under Article 16.

Carry on! Now perhaps you want to argue that providing these thugs a clean cell, medical care, three meals a day, recreation time, Korans and prayer rugs as being inhumane; but that would require the willful suspension of disbelief.

:2wave:
 
Truth Detector said:
The farcical rhetoric you blather this forum suggests that you feel otherwise; who do you think is "killing" all those innocents who are being used as shields by those innocent terrorists we picked up you so desperately wish to divine Constitutional and Geneva Protections for?
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The protections have already been "divined." The law is the law. And again, many of these KILLERS are suspect. Many of them in fact innocent...


Truth Detector said:
This is about as asinine as blaming our troops. Again the notion that Bush is guilty of the deaths caused by these thugs, despots and terrorists requires such a vast willful ignorance as to be beyond reasonable comprehension.


I guess it doesn't even begin to occur to you, in your willful hyper partisan denial, that the killing would never have occurred if not for the efforts of these despots, thugs and terrorists?
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I am talking about the people who never dealt with a terrorist. The family eating at a restaurant blown up by the US because they thought MAYBE Saddam was there. The kids caught in crossfire. The Father taken to Guantanamo because he was forced by a terrorist to pick up a rifle or his wife will be raped and murdered.

Truth Detector said:
But again, with that notion, one would also have to make the incredible stretch of willful ignorance to suggest that these thugs, despots and terrorists have a legitimate claim for blowing up mosques, markets and schools and using civilians as human shields to protect themselves while killing coalition forces.
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No they don't. It is nowhere near implied. There is no excuse - however, if you are convinced it is the job of the US to stop such atrocities, we should bomb Indonesia, Pakistan, and at least a dozen other countries if it is truly your goal to stop such atrocities.

Truth Detector said:
No you are not; you could care less about "moral" fabric. If you did, you wouldn't make such farcical claims against the very people trying to prevent these terrorist thugs from killing people like YOU.

This is nothing less than a partisan politics.
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I am entirely serious here. It is not a farcical claim to say many more innocent lives have been lost in the years after Saddam than when Saddam was in power. And I am not blaming the troops. They did not decide to go to war.



Truth Detector said:
You just cannot seem to help yourself can you? I have highlighted what amounts to nothing more than empty headed hyperbolic nonsense.

Bravo; you ended your nonsensical diatribe with what I consider would be the poster child remarks for the Liberal Democrats that naively suggest that Bush forced us into a war of choice with no justification for it while ignoring the FACT that it was a HUGE bi-partisan decision to go to war with a vast coalition of support from 36 other nations and the previous Democrat Administration.
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It was "a HUGE bi-partisan decision to go to war" based on FALSE premises of such "facts" like their massive munitions depots of WMD's, their ability to make a nuke within 2 years, and an unproven link of Saddam to Al Queda.


Truth Detector said:
This is almost as absurd, ironic and asinine as the Liberal argument that Bush is such a moron but such a genius that he was able to fool the nation and highly intelligent Liberal Democrats and 36 other nations into a war based on lies.

People like you just cannot help yourselves when it comes to nonsensical hyperbolic talking points can you?
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If I sound like nonsense to you, my time here is done.
 
PogueMoran said:
That's not even close to what I was saying Detector. I'm taking the conservative position here that being the rule of law. The original part was that people were saying a threat to one's life isn't torture. Under US Law it is
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I keep seeing this "rule of law" argument; yet cannot seem to find any credible evidence of the CIA or the military having broken laws in their interrogation efforts other than a few isolated cases where abuse did occur and the perps were prosecuted for it.

Apparently you are studying law in an education system that breeds economic and legal ignorance.

But do not worry, the terrorists are cheering the efforts to divine rights for them and desperately attempt to impugn the very Government and employees in that Government that attempted to protect you from them.
 
"Carry on! Now perhaps you want to argue that providing these thugs a clean cell, medical care, three meals a day, recreation time, Korans and prayer rugs as being inhumane; but that would require the willful suspension of disbelief."

NOT ALL OF THEM ARE THUGS. Your assumptions of guilt toward anyone being suspect of anything is the core fault in whatever the hell it is you are trying to justify. If I am in jail because I am on trial for murder, am I guilty? According to you, I am.
 
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