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FACT CHECK: Health overhaul myths taking root

theangryamerican said:
Tell me where in the bill it details how there's going to be adequate funding AND doctors to suddenly deal with the waves of Obama's 40 million uninsured WITHOUT rationing the care given.
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We need to move past this notion of rationing.

Market allocation according to price is tantamount to rationing. There, it has been said. Regardless of what Congress does and does not do we will have rationing, going by the strictest interpretation of the term.

We have rationing today. We will have rationing tomorrow.

That is where the Administration and the Congress have failed to be honest even with themselves. Comparative Effectiveness Research and "Best Practice" implementation are nothing more than shoddy euphemisms for the mechanics of bureaucratic rationing. The research and practices so identified are merely the means by which it will be determined which patient receives which treatment and under which protocol--that is rationing, just as market allocation is rationing.

We have rationing today. We will have rationing tomorrow.

The question is not "will we ration?"--we already know that we will--but rather "how will we ration?" Is it more equitable to ration per market allocation or by government diktat? Do we achieve greater justice through the invisible hand or the visible one? Do we trust individuals transacting their individual health affairs, or do we place greater faith in regulatory agencies near and far?

We have rationing today. We will have rationing tomorrow.

There is rationing in HR3200. There will be rationing in HR3200 when it comes to a floor vote in the Congress. There will be rationing in whatever bill wends all the way through both houses of Congress and lands in the Oval Office to be signed. That is known fact and should be acknowledged fact.

We have rationing today. We will have rationing tomorrow.

The particular question regarding rationing in this health care reform debate is simply this: do we want government to ration medical care among the people?

We have rationing today. We will have rationing tomorrow.
 
Redress said:
From all I can find out, it is not a personal, "you are 95 and dying, you are out of luck", it's just like normal insurance, deciding what is "covered" and what is not. The government is not getting involved on a personal level.
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I don't think they are either, but if the plan is anything like the British NICE, they will be making decisions about what is and is not covered that will result in many people not getting treatments that could extend their lives.

I'm 100% fine with that, as it's the only way to really run a healthcare system, but to pretend it's not there, as this article does, is ridiculous.
 
Redress said:
We have been over the illegal immigrant lie already you know. Do you just have zero memory, or do you enjoy having people prove you wrong repeatedly?

Seven Falsehoods About Health Care | FactCheck.org



Yes, that is right, the bill specifically denies illegal aliens.
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If it specifically denies illegal aliens, how will 20 some million of the 47 million people without insurance that Obama keeps saying "will be covered by this bill" get insurance?

Or does Obama himself need some fact checking?
 
celticlord said:
We need to move past this notion of rationing.

Market allocation according to price is tantamount to rationing. There, it has been said. Regardless of what Congress does and does not do we will have rationing, going by the strictest interpretation of the term.

We have rationing today. We will have rationing tomorrow.
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You're right. But, what's the standard going to be? What's the cut off if you have pancreatic cancer? Will you be cut off at 50? 60? What's the cut off for kidney dialisis? In the UK it's 60. What about HIV treatment? Hepititus?
 
RightinNYC said:
:rofl Saying that abortions will be paid for only by private premiums, when the system will be (in no trivial part) subsidized by the government is absolutely idiotic. It's like saying that we're going to pass the stimulus, but it won't come out of your tax dollars. It's all coming out of and going into the same place.
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Am I remembering incorrectly, or didn't the courts decide that medicade had to cover abortions in certain circumstances?

The bill currently going around doesn't specifically deny coverage for abortions but we know,based on past history, that the courts will step into this and the insurance will cover abortions - at least in some cirumstances.
 
buck said:
If it specifically denies illegal aliens, how will 20 some million of the 47 million people without insurance that Obama keeps saying "will be covered by this bill" get insurance?

Or does Obama himself need some fact checking?
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That's another fact that the Libbos seem to leave off. Of the 47 million without insurance, 21 million are uninsured voluntarily and 15 million are illegal aliens.
 
buck said:
If it specifically denies illegal aliens, how will 20 some million of the 47 million people without insurance that Obama keeps saying "will be covered by this bill" get insurance?

Or does Obama himself need some fact checking?
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I am not following the question. Could you expand on it a bit?
 
apdst said:
I think it's quite telling how the followers can tell us what's not going on, but don't have a clue about what is going on.
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I honestly believe that even those making the proposal, and writing them as well are not able to explain what they are really writing or attempting to do either.

Health care just like so many other areas or industries in America could use to improve in many ways, but just like a surgeon would not stitch a stab wound without first correcting the underlying damage caused to the internal organs any attempt to stitch or band aid the problems with health care will still result in the death of the patient.

This quick fix method of throwing money at problems while ignoring the real problems and fundamentals of the true causes that both parties are guilty of (sure to differing degrees, but neither political "gang" is without guilt on this) is part of what is ruining this country from the local municipal level straight on up to the white house.

We all see it though we may not notice or even deny what we see in various forms of wasting tax dollars on everything from private contractors and no bid awards to keep busy work and padding the ranks of government workers to insane levels. Sure some will counter this helps to keep people working, but just the very fact that the only safe positions are with the countries most dysfunctional employer (govt) shows there is a very serious underlying problem.

Has anyone even considered that the pressures of economic losses and years of a totally out of control imbalance of imports that have downsized some entire industries and even eliminated others have not had a part in what has created the problems in health care as well?

Seriously just consider the desired income of many health care professionals, and then that of their typical patient and it becomes obvious that there is just not enough time in the day to see enough patients, or enough dollars in the pockets of many patients to make things work properly. You just can not make a million dollars a year seeing ten or twenty patients a day 3-4 days a week when they can barely afford $20 or $50 for a visit. The numbers just do not add up.

With so much of our way of life being supported by the introduction of years of products being imported from much less fortunate countries where our corporations and even government has prospered from increased revenues due to insanely low labor rates which in turn has held back the progress of our own citizens from reduced domestic manufacturing and the resulting job losses and reduced incomes that can not compare to the reduced costs of these items over the ones made domestically that most could not even afford today.

Fortunately the solution is not as difficult as the problem since what really needs to be done is to get back to the fundamentals that made this country the world leader in the first place, but getting there and causing those profiting and benefiting from the current overall mess will not likely be as simple (I suspect the money and power will need to be pulled from their stiff fingers lol).

I believe the Constitution addresses much of the ways things need to be done again, and reversing the power and wealth back to the people and away from the government would pretty much start putting things back on track, and then the other issues would be much more easily corrected, health care included.

No myths there my friends, and the real answers are going to have to come from the pubic because everyone else is way too happy with the way it is now, and what they are proposing.
 
Its all too obvious that the group of "usual suspects" has taken a page from their dear and beloved idol GWB: "If you tell lies enough times, perhaps there are some people out there guillable enough to believe you....so repeat repeat repeat".

How you guys can continue to lie with a straight face when the facts are right before your eyes is truly amazing.
 
disneydude said:
Its all too obvious that the group of "usual suspects" has taken a page from their dear and beloved idol GWB: "If you tell lies enough times, perhaps there are some people out there guillable enough to believe you....so repeat repeat repeat".

How you guys can continue to lie with a straight face when the facts are right before your eyes is truly amazing.
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Fighting false health care claims, Obama repeats one of his own | McClatchy

President Barack Obama participated in a scripted online discussion of his health care overhaul with a friendly audience of religious voters and pastors Wednesday. It ended with him bemoaning those who bear "false witness" against his plans — and then making a claim of his own that's been widely shown to be false
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He said the first thing he wanted to correct was the idea that the proposed overhaul would force some people into different health care plans. "If you like your health care plan, you can keep your health care plan," he said, repeating one of his stock lines.

That's not true, however, according to FactCheck.org, an independent truth squad run by the Annenberg Public Policy Center at the University of Pennsylvania.
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Damn those pesky liars!
 
disneydude said:
Its all too obvious that the group of "usual suspects" has taken a page from their dear and beloved idol GWB: "If you tell lies enough times, perhaps there are some people out there guillable enough to believe you....so repeat repeat repeat".

How you guys can continue to lie with a straight face when the facts are right before your eyes is truly amazing.
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Disdude I almost did not reply to this thought because I know I will not have the time available to fully or quickly respond to the back and forth bickering so popular when someone disagrees with the popular notions of either party or their current propaganda, but this issue is just too large, important, and has the potential to accelerate our countries current trip down the toilet.

What is really obvious to me is that as you say the "usual suspects" but from both extremes as usual are backing their beliefs and chosen sides, and many without full understanding or taking the time to really look at all the ramifications of the proposed changes, and also all connections between the political parties who have been running things for years and making the mistakes that have lead us to where we are now.

First thing I take issue with is your "parrot" reference to GWB. This is so popular within the left that it seems no one with ties to it can have a political discussion without throwing in GWB like some kind of new buzz word.

Sure he and the majority of politicians in federal government during his term made their share of mistakes (some unforgivable), and I am no fan of the many changes made during that time that reduced or watered down our rights (the patriot act etc), but the actions of that administration had very little affect on what is being proposed to completely change how every American receives health care, and even more importantly how the proposed changes will seriously increase the powers of government and it's reach to every last American citizen and every single foot of land of our country.

Again understand both parties are guilty, and your comment "If you tell lies enough times, perhaps there are some people out there guillable enough to believe you....so repeat repeat repeat" fully applies to both sides of the extremes of politics, and is seemingly continually used to both motivate the base and wrongly confuse the masses of the middle into believing whatever the current BS may be.

Actually I believe your reference to GWB seriously discredits your post because to anyone who is able to see past the beliefs and propaganda of either party it becomes obvious that there are problems with the proposed changes to the entire health care system, and that the actual underlying causes of the current problems have manifested over many years and countless presidential administrations.

Just because someone is in support of the current system, or even in support of making some seriously needed changes in health care (and many other areas) does not give anyone the right to use scare and propaganda tactics either in favor of uncontrolled changes or fear of the very same changes.

When I saw our legislators and news media referring to our fellow citizens as Nazi's, domestic terrorists, and just basically bad Americans for their standing up for their beliefs on this matter it substantiated my fears that the ultimate goal of our leaders is not our health or well being, but that their only concerns were to increase their power and control through manipulation of anything they can, and yes including health care.

These tactics are not uncommon for the opposing team either (as you accuse), and seem to be very popular in repositioning public opinion, but this does not make it right to use these tactics in any way.

These tactics and the continued growth of government are actually the issues that should be being debated as it is not only part of the cause of the health care problems that are being attempted to be corrected, but a large part of the majority of changes over the last 50 years or so that have lead us down this slippery slope.

We need to be debating things like increasing corruption in government and politics, how the public has come to accept this corruption, growth of government and its control over the people, uncontrolled corporate growth created by various party contributions, uncontrolled and even government supported increases in imports, attacks on the constitution and our freedoms, offenses against the first amendment, limiting free speech by introducing politically correct nonsense and false racist claims, encouraged illegal immigration and the benefits allowed them, the reductions in the quality of life from trading the wealth of the working class for imported trinkets and corporate profits, jobs lost to imports and the various small business's and industries that have been eliminated by government control and manipulating the laws, attacks upon our religious freedoms, and a host of issues way to long to type out here that are so much more important while also being part of the underlying cause of the current health care issues.

I am going to leave it at that and avoid the popular discussions on things like the true amount of the uninsured, the cost of insuring them, fully government run health care, and just which party or side of the spectrum is right or totally full of it because all of this would pretty much work itself out if the previously mentioned conditions were corrected.



It is up to every one of us to do our due diligence in finding out the facts, and I know things would be much different if more would do this instead of just accepting everything they are told by politicians and the news media.

I seriously hope we all as Americans can find the strength to stop being fooled by all the hype and propaganda from both ends, stop taking the easy road in blaming a single person or group for our current problem at the forefront, and start taking responsibility for how things have played out due to our looking to our government to just take care of things and denying our responsibilities to being more involved and protecting our great way of life.


Now go back and read that again (and my previous post above as well lol), and see if you too can see through all the lies, propaganda, and BS that is clouding the issues and find the real problems and the things needed to be done to find true solutions and not just another "Candy Coating" "Feel Good" law change from our misguided legislators.

Freedom is not free!!
 
Sorry for the long posts LMFAO :doh

Guess I type toooooo fast :2wave:
 
Redress said:
You should read the question before you correct the answer.



Nothing in what you quoted gives the government the power to decide when to stop care for the elderly. It gives the government the ability to decide what is covered and what is not. It's a rather unsubtle difference. Patients will still have the final say as to when to stop treatments, especially if they have living wills.
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And she shoots herself in the foot!!!!!

How is deciding not to fund treatment any different than not treating "Granny"?
 
Redress said:
We have been over the illegal immigrant lie already you know. Do you just have zero memory, or do you enjoy having people prove you wrong repeatedly?

Seven Falsehoods About Health Care | FactCheck.org



Yes, that is right, the bill specifically denies illegal aliens.
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And of course, to make sure those illegal aliens don't get free health care..... they took out the "E-Verify" clause... Just how gullible are you?
 
Redress said:
Funding is still in the works, and is a real sticking point. So far no real proposal has gotten anywhere.
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No problem!!!! just borrow $2,000,000,000,000 from the Chinese.

Oh wait.... they are divesting themselves of our dept as we speak.

I got it!!!! Just print more money.
 
Redress said:
We have been over the illegal immigrant lie already you know. Do you just have zero memory, or do you enjoy having people prove you wrong repeatedly?

Seven Falsehoods About Health Care | FactCheck.org



Yes, that is right, the bill specifically denies illegal aliens.
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If they're not going to cover illegals, then why are illegals counted as a part of the 47 million uninsured persons in the country? I smell amnisty.
 
Redress said:
I am not following the question. Could you expand on it a bit?
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Obama claims that it is a "moral imperative" that we offer medical coverage to the 47 million uninsured in this country.

Since that number includes anywhere from 10 - 20 million illegal immigrants,how does he plan on doing that without offering coverage to a very sizable portion of the uninsured, illegal immigrants?
 
disneydude said:
Its all too obvious that the group of "usual suspects" has taken a page from their dear and beloved idol GWB: "If you tell lies enough times, perhaps there are some people out there guillable enough to believe you....so repeat repeat repeat".

How you guys can continue to lie with a straight face when the facts are right before your eyes is truly amazing.
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It is the only way to justify being a conservative. Once I realized that, I abandoned that ideology. Amazing isn't it?
 
Hmmmm, let's go directly to FactCheck.org and see what they have to say about President Obama and keeping your insurance.

Obama said: "When I say if you have your plan and you like it, or you have a doctor and you like your doctor, that you don’t have to change plans, what I’m saying is the government is not going to make you change plans under health reform."

FactCheck:
That’s true – the government won’t switch your plan for you under these bills.

Keep Your Insurance? Not Everyone. | FactCheck.org
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Obama said "[n]obody is going to force you to leave your health care plan."

FactCheck:
That’s true enough. The legislation wouldn’t require anyone to switch health insurance – though, in most cases, plans would eventually have to meet minimum benefit standards. The bills don’t require anyone to join the federal plan.


Keep Your Insurance? Not Everyone. | FactCheck.org
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FactCheck said:
The House bill also has a provision that allows those who purchase their own insurance (those who don’t get insurance through an employer) to keep their plan as long as they’d like, as long as the insurance company keeps offering it.

[...]

It’s important to note that as things stand now, employers can and often do switch their employees’ coverage, or even drop it.

Keep Your Insurance? Not Everyone. | FactCheck.org
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It seems as though President Obama is correct.

If you're switched from your current coverage, it's your employer or present insurer that will do the switching, not this bill.



apdst said:
...15 million are illegal aliens
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buck said:
Since that number includes anywhere from 10 - 20 million illegal immigrants
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Got proof?
 
buck said:
Obama claims that it is a "moral imperative" that we offer medical coverage to the 47 million uninsured in this country.

Since that number includes anywhere from 10 - 20 million illegal immigrants,how does he plan on doing that without offering coverage to a very sizable portion of the uninsured, illegal immigrants?
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Ok, I understand, and I do not know currently the answer. I will look into it in a bit.
 
Crunch said:
No problem!!!! just borrow $2,000,000,000,000 from the Chinese.

Oh wait.... they are divesting themselves of our dept as we speak.

I got it!!!! Just print more money.
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I hope they can print more doctors too!
 
BWG said:
Got proof?
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Yes, I do.

Do you have any proof that the 47 million uninsured don't actually count between 10 - 20 million illegal immingants?

Or are you just being willfully obtuse?
 
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buck said:
Yes, I do.

Do you have any proof that the 47 million uninsured don't actually count between 10 - 20 million illegal immingants?

Or are you just being willfully obtuse?
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Well then it would be nice if you posted it.
 
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