• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

FACT CHECK: Health overhaul myths taking root

Yes, I do.

Do you have any proof that the 47 million uninsured don't actually count between 10 - 20 million illegal immingants?

Or are you just being willfully obtuse?

You are correct as best I can tell. Unfortunately, the sources I am finding are blogs and op/ed's, neither of which is entirely reliable. As best I can tell, to answer your original question, Obama got the number from an WSJ Op/ed, written by senior partners at Bain and Company. Quote from op/ed:

Census Bureau data reveal that the uninsured are actually the kind of demographic that consumer product companies dream about. A surprising 85% of the nation's uninsured are currently employed and nearly all have worked in the past year (emphasis mine). They are young -- almost half are between the ages of 18 and 34 -- and nearly three-quarters of the uninsured describe their health as "excellent" or "very good." More than two-thirds have at least some college education and about half earn middle-class incomes.

I have not found a direct link to the column, but I suspect that the candidates(Clinton used the same figure) got the figure from the column without looking in depth at the number.

Source: http://trusted.md/feed/items/system/2008/01/07/more_clarity_to_the_47_million_uninsured_number

Interestingly, and you might like this, it appears the 47 million number is in error: CNSNews.com - Obama Falsely Claims There Are 47 Million Uninsured Americans
 
Well then it would be nice if you posted it.

I would but since it's pretty well accepted by those on both sides of the aisle, I see no point to you asking for it other than you like to be difficult.

If you really aren't just being difficult, you could easily search for it.

Edited to add: I see you searched for it. SO, I guess you really weren't just being difficult. My apologies.
 
Last edited:
Illegal aliens are a large problem in the health care system which isn't being resolved in the house bill by simply saying it doesn't cover them. If illegal aliens will receive treatment at emergency rooms as they are now this bill has no effect on their treatment, but simply provides a financial motivation to legitimize them. I think what New York (I think) is doing with criminal illegal aliens is appropriate here also. Treat them and put them on a plane home. I would include a persona non grata certificate making it criminally illegal for them to return.

I have seen interviews with O where he states that "his plan", which I have to assume is at least contained in HR3200 since he has not published anything from the whitehouse, will result in a single payer system in 5-10 years. Lately he has been saying that that is not the case. Was he dishonest then or now. :(

I still haven't received my AARP dues reimbursement. Can fact check send some SEIU or ACORN guys over to encourage them to send it to me? :lol:
 
People are going to flood into this country from all over the world to gobble up the free health care, because we all know that there's not going to be anyone verifying citizenship when they walk into the hospital.
 
People are going to flood into this country from all over the world to gobble up the free health care, because we all know that there's not going to be anyone verifying citizenship when they walk into the hospital.

And I always heard it was because of the jobs:doh
 
And I always heard it was because of the jobs:doh

The Liberals killed all the jobs, so that's not it anymore. PBO wants to tax us, so he can subsidize jobs on other countries.
 
The Liberals killed all the jobs, so that's not it anymore. PBO wants to tax us, so he can subsidize jobs on other countries.

I guess that is why GM is gearing up production:doh
 
Got proof?

I think it's closer to 10-12, but he's correct. There was a long thread a while back where I went through the whole thing, but the CNS article actually does a surprisingly good job of describing it.

Of the 47 million people in the US without insurance, 10-12 million are illegals, 9 million are people who make $75k or more, and I believe there are another 10 million or so who have insurance available to them, whether through a government program or a family member, but who have not signed up for it.

That means that there are approximately 18 million people who make less than $75k and who do not have public insurance available to them. Of those, I would argue that many (if not the majority) can afford insurance but either consciously choose not to or spend their money foolishly.

That doesn't mean that it's not still an important issue, but it's important that all sides are coming from the same place.

(It's also worth noting that I haven't seen much outcry about Obama using fear tactics and outright lies to scare the public into accepting his plan by claiming that there are 47 million americans without insurance.)
 
I think it's closer to 10-12, but he's correct. There was a long thread a while back where I went through the whole thing, but the CNS article actually does a surprisingly good job of describing it.

This guy offers a fairly similar breakdown. His illegal count is lower, but really it's just an estimate. I do happen to think his his estimate is lower than it should be. Most of the other estimates I've seen are anywhere from 10 - 20 mil.

He has some other interesting analysis of the health care debate, if you're at all interested. He appears to lean right, but seems to be attempting to stay fair.

New Analysis of the Myth: “46 Million Americans Without Health Insurance” | Dr. Walt's Health Blog
 
I guess that is why GM is gearing up production:doh

Cash for Clunkers? That's your shining example of the success of this government? How long are you going to blindly wander around thinking that program was actually good for America?
 
If you are tired of all the right-wing lies....check the facts:

FACT CHECK: Health overhaul myths taking root - Yahoo! News

Fact #1: THE FACTS: Nothing being debated in Washington would give the government such authority. Critics have twisted a provision in a House bill that would direct Medicare to pay for counseling sessions about end-of-life care, living wills, hospices and the like if a patient wants such consultations with a doctor. They have said, incorrectly, that the elderly would be required to have these sessions.

Fact #2 : THE FACTS: Obama is not proposing a single-payer system in which the government covers everyone, like in Canada or some European countries. He says that direction is not right for the U.S. The proposals being negotiated do not go there.

Fact#3: THE FACTS: The House version of legislation would allow coverage for abortion in the public plan. But the procedure would be paid for with dollars from beneficiary premiums, not from federal funds. Likewise, private plans in the new insurance exchange could opt to cover abortion, but no federal subsidies would be used to pay for the procedure.


FACT: The government is currently in a $1.8 trillion deficit with no end in sight and cannot afford to attempt a government takeover of the medical insurance in this country.

FACT: Government managed (oxymoron if I ever saw one) programs ration care and payments to doctors in an effort to reign in costs. This causes long waiting lists and a shortage of specialists to perform critical operations and less R&D expenditures.

FACT: Citizens who live in Government managed health care nations pay substantially more in taxes, earn less pay, pay much more for items like gas, clothes and gorceries and live a lower standard of living than most Americans do.

One thing is certain, FACTS are not a friend of this administration. :cool:
 
Its all too obvious that the group of "usual suspects" has taken a page from their dear and beloved idol GWB: "If you tell lies enough times, perhaps there are some people out there guillable enough to believe you....so repeat repeat repeat".

How you guys can continue to lie with a straight face when the facts are right before your eyes is truly amazing.

:rofl The denial in this one is strong padawan.
 
Cash for Clunkers? That's your shining example of the success of this government? How long are you going to blindly wander around thinking that program was actually good for America?

I support Americans, I support Americans going back to work, I support good deals for Americans. I'm sorry you do not feel the same.
 
Does anyone on ANY side of this debate HONESTLY believe that the efforts of the likes of Kennedy and Obama government mandate/program would not offer/mandate illegal aliens health care? REALLY?
 
1. the irony is that if there ARE indeed any lies concerning obamacare that are being swallowed whole by large parts of the electorate, they testify to the FAILURE of the white house to get its word out, to CONTROL the discussion, to make its side heard, to SELL

if 55% of americans believe something that isn't true, then you're looking at one LOSER of a president

he can make excuses, he can blame, he can whine about how unfair things are

but he's LOSING, by definition

2. when heller was killed in ways and means, july 17, it stripped the enforcement (e-verify) out of the house bill, leaving empty any claim that illegals will NOT be included in whatever expansion of coverage goes down

what possible argument could be forwarded AGAINST ensuring that health care recipients possess valid soc sec numbers?
 
I support Americans, I support Americans going back to work, I support good deals for Americans. I'm sorry you do not feel the same.

What a coincidence, I support America and Americans who can take control of their own lives and not depend on the government to fulfill their sense of entitlement. Thank you for the sad attempt to twist my words. It’s too bad that the CARS program didn't do anything to actually help the people.

If you actually paid attention to what was going on instead of just being dazzled by the shiny gloss on the surface, you'd realize what I'm talking about.

Here, I'll break it down for you, since I'm feeling generous.

First, the true "clunkers" on the road are all well over 9 years old. The people driving these cars, even with a voucher from the Feds, most likely should not even be buying a new car. They just don't have the money. That's why they're driving a clunker in the first place. Unless a person has enough disposable income to be paying for a new car in cash, they probably shouldn't be buying it.

Besides having to commit to high monthly payments against something that they currently may have no monthly payments on, they will wind up paying more in annual fees and insurance payments. In most states, the vehicle registration fees are age and value based. My car, for example, costs about $30 this year. A new car will cost nearly $500. Additionally, a new car would probably add another $400 to $600 a year in higher insurance costs. Combined, you could be looking at a new expense of $850 to over $1000 a year that is over-and-above any monthly expenses for a new car loan.

The average mileage on a new car is about 27 miles per gallon and that car is destined to drive about 12,000 miles a year; once off the lot. That means that this new car will probably need about 450 gallons a year to operate. For the sake of conjecture, let’s use a rate of $2.60 per gallon, making the annual fuel expense about $1170 dollars. A 4 mpg increase in a mileage rate is only a 14 percent reduction in annual fuel expenses. The resulting savings for buying that new car would be a little over $13 a month for the buyer. Not much of an incentive to spend $10,000 or more (even after the voucher) to save such a small amount of expense in gasoline.

In addition, this isn’t even getting the inefficient vehicles off the road. Given that the average car is 9 years old, it will be repackaged by the car dealer as a used vehicle and resold. That used car will remain on the road for a very long time.

Lastly, the biggest problems with the "Cash For Clunkers" spending bill is that it will drive consumers to buy Toyota's and Honda's. That's because, the Japanese vehicles have higher mileage capabilities than most U.S. models of the same class or type. In fact, most Japanese hybrids are at least 4 mpg more efficient than any equivalent U.S. branded hybrid. Standard fueled cars are even more efficient. That means that many new car buyers just see this as a "government give-a-way" for something that they planned to do anyway.

If people were planning on buying a car within the last six months, hearing about the voucher, they would have held off their purchase until the program had been instated. This created an artificial slump in the car sales market that may not have been as bad as it was if people weren’t waiting on this program to save them a few bucks. In addition, the bounce back the market is seeing is likely to slow as soon as the program ends, since anyone who was planning on buying a car in the following six months bought early to take advantage of the savings. Basically, all the car purchases that had been planned for this year are already done.

Furthermore, the reason the U.S. car sales have slipped over the years is because resale values are lower and repairs higher. If you just look at any Cadillac, two years off the showroom floor, there are constant and reoccurring problems with things like the electrical system. That's why resale values are lower and why their Japanese counterparts are more desirable. The quality and finish of a car on the showroom floor is one thing. However, the repair history is something completely different. U.S. namesakes can't compete with the Japanese after 2 or 3 years of operation. Just look at consumer reports or other rating agencies.

Regardless, there will be almost as many “clunkers on the road after the program is over as there were before.

So, in conclusion, you have Americans burdening themselves with debt they probably can’t afford, in a down economy, no less. They’re paying in excess of $15,000 to get a $4,500 of their own tax dollars back. They're spending MORE money each month as opposed to getting a good deal. You have jobs that have been temporarily created but will likely not last through the month. To top it all off, you really haven’t taken many of those nasty, evil, inefficient cars off the road. This just reeks of success, doesn’t it?
 
So, in conclusion, you have Americans burdening themselves with debt they probably can’t afford, in a down economy, no less. They’re paying in excess of $15,000 to get a $4,500 of their own tax dollars back. They're spending MORE money each month as opposed to getting a good deal. You have jobs that have been temporarily created but will likely not last through the month. To top it all off, you really haven’t taken many of those nasty, evil, inefficient cars off the road. This just reeks of success, doesn’t it?
In all fairness, your analysis is somewhat off.

$4,500 is a fair-sized down payment on a vehicle, and it is entirely plausible a person might wish to buy a new vehicle but merely lacks that down payment. For such a person, the CARS program does not inordinately burden them with debt, but merely is an opportunity to bring forward a purchase they might otherwise have put off until next year. In fact, given the increase general in saving rates of late, it is quite probable that this represents a majority of people purchasing new vehicles through CARS. For such a person, the debt and expenditure levels are not burdensome.

The reality is that both scenarios are, for at least some people, true. There are people who probably should not have bought a new vehicle for external economic concerns such as the ones you raised, and so CARS was not a net benefit to them, and there are those who were able to get the new vehicles they desired a few months sooner.

Whether the program translates into an overall benefit for the economy of the nation as a whole remains to be seen.
 
buck said:
Yes, I do.

Do you have any proof that the 47 million uninsured don't actually count between 10 - 20 million illegal immingants?
Your assertion. Your burden of proof.

BTW..10-20 million is a pretty wide gap when talking about a group of people of 45 million.

RightinNYC said:
I think it's closer to 10-12, but he's correct. There was a long thread a while back where I went through the whole thing, but the CNS article actually does a surprisingly good job of describing it.
Yes I participated in that thread and I made the same observations to you back then that I'm about to make again.

From the CNS article that you reference (and linked to by Redress in post #51)
But this number, according to the Census Bureau, included 9.73 million foreigners
Notice it says foreigners, not illegals.

One of the first arguments from those in opposition to this reform was that the number of uninsured include...*gasp*...foreigners, when clearly Obama, Pelosi, Reid, et. al. said 'Americans'. These foreigners live, work, go to school, pay taxes everyday right along with 'Americans'. We include them in everything we do, but now all of a sudden they don't count when it's politically convenient. Where are these people supposed to go when they get sick? Back to Vietnam? Brazil? Indonesia?

From the census bureau on the uninsured
http://www.census.gov/prod/2008pubs/p60-235.pdf

Table 6 Page 22

PEOPLE

Total.................45,657

Nativity

Native born . . . . . 33,269
Foreign born . . . . 12,388
Naturalized citizen . 2,651
Not a citizen . . . . 9,737
If you were to make a huge assumption and said that every 'not a citizen' was an illegal it would still be short of 10-12 million, but then that would leave no room for all the other 'not a citizen' living in the United States from all the other countries in the world.

RightinNYC said:
That means that there are approximately 18 million people who make less than $75k and who do not have public insurance available to them. Of those, I would argue that many (if not the majority) can afford insurance but either consciously choose not to or spend their money foolishly.
I addressed this also. While I agree that some can afford to buy health insurance, but for what ever reason refuse to do so. However the article made the sweeping assumption that everyone that made over X amount could afford insurance, without investigating as to the why. They may have been refused insurance because of a preexisting condition, they may have a child with an uninsurable condition, who knows. They made claims based on.....well really....nothing!
 
In all fairness, your analysis is somewhat off.

$4,500 is a fair-sized down payment on a vehicle, and it is entirely plausible a person might wish to buy a new vehicle but merely lacks that down payment. For such a person, the CARS program does not inordinately burden them with debt, but merely is an opportunity to bring forward a purchase they might otherwise have put off until next year. In fact, given the increase general in saving rates of late, it is quite probable that this represents a majority of people purchasing new vehicles through CARS. For such a person, the debt and expenditure levels are not burdensome.

The reality is that both scenarios are, for at least some people, true. There are people who probably should not have bought a new vehicle for external economic concerns such as the ones you raised, and so CARS was not a net benefit to them, and there are those who were able to get the new vehicles they desired a few months sooner.

Whether the program translates into an overall benefit for the economy of the nation as a whole remains to be seen.

Very true, but I didn't state that the example I gave was the case for everyone. There is an exception to every rule, but I don't think most Americans can afford to just throw away the money they are losing by thinking they are getting a good deal or saving gas money.

For example, I just got an 8 mpg increase in my own vehicle and I didn't have to buy a new car to do it. The cost...about $40. I changed my oil, air filter and fuel filter. My car is ten years old, American and paid for and it is as reliable as anything I could drive off a car lot brand new (and it still gets 25mpg to boot.)

If someone can't afford to pay $4,500 dollars for a downpayment, they obviously don't have the money to cover any major life emergency that might suddenly arise. What if they lose their job tomorrow? If they don't even have $4,500 available in the bank to support themselves without working, then the new car they bought just became a giant albatross around their neck. THAT was my point. If you can't pay cash, you can't afford it.
 
If someone can't afford to pay $4,500 dollars for a downpayment, they obviously don't have the money to cover any major life emergency that might suddenly arise. What if they lose their job tomorrow? If they don't even have $4,500 available in the bank to support themselves without working, then the new car they bought just became a giant albatross around their neck. THAT was my point. If you can't pay cash, you can't afford it.
That's an oversimplification. Perhaps $4,500 is a bit farther into the sock drawer than they want to reach....for the very reasons you state.

For some what you say is true. For others it is not.
 
That's an oversimplification. Perhaps $4,500 is a bit farther into the sock drawer than they want to reach....for the very reasons you state.

For some what you say is true. For others it is not.

You're assuming that it's logical to say that there is a time when someone can "afford" to go in to debt. How can you afford something but not be able to pay for it?
 
that's not my interpretation. quite a stretch, i think.

The Director shall prioritize areas for the identification, development, evaluation, and implementation of best practices (including innovative methodologies and strategies) for quality improvement activities in the delivery of health care services (in this section referred to as `best practices').

where is the requirment for counseling sessions?
 
Your assertion. Your burden of proof.

BTW..10-20 million is a pretty wide gap when talking about a group of people of 45 million.

10 - 20 million is a pretty wide gap. Apparently you don't realize that people tend not to admit to being illegal. You know, that whole not wanting to be arrested / deported thing. So, any number given is purely an estimate - hence the gap is wider than if they could pin the number down. Most estimates are between 10 - 20.

Regardless - take the low-end, there are 10 million illegals. Obama still claims it is a moral imperative to insure the 47 million uninsured. So, how's he going to do that when a significant number are illegals and he claims he won't insure illegals?
 
10 - 20 million is a pretty wide gap. Apparently you don't realize that people tend not to admit to being illegal. You know, that whole not wanting to be arrested / deported thing. So, any number given is purely an estimate - hence the gap is wider than if they could pin the number down. Most estimates are between 10 - 20.

Regardless - take the low-end, there are 10 million illegals. Obama still claims it is a moral imperative to insure the 47 million uninsured. So, how's he going to do that when a significant number are illegals and he claims he won't insure illegals?

I doubt that the calculated estimate of the uninsured included illegals when it was done.

Illegals are most likely extraneous to the US population census statistics. After all, what illegal would reveal himself to a census taker?
 
Back
Top Bottom