"It's a War": Mexico Under Siege

apdst said:

Legalizing alcohol put the Mafia out of business? Legalizing alcohol put an end the illegal liquir business? The answer is a resounding, no.

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Did it severely reduce the scope of a trade which is impossible to eliminate, and also result in a substantial decrease in gang related violence while making it less available to youth, and create what are now today multi billion dollar legitimate businesses that do not kill to further their business interests?

The answer is a resounding yes.

marduc said:

Did it severely reduce the scope of a trade which is impossible to eliminate, and also result in a substantial decrease in gang related violence while making it less available to youth, and create what are now today multi billion dollar legitimate businesses that do not kill to further their business interests?

The answer is a resounding yes.

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You left out the part where the businesses and the people buying the product all pay taxes.

stekim said:

You left out the part where the businesses and the people buying the product all pay taxes.

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yeah I almost threw that in, but figured the sentence was already getting borderline run on as it were.

I also left out that the businesses do not actively attempt to usurp or undermine police, military or governments as well (well through violence at least.. lobbyists could be construed to be doing just such a thing)

celticlord said:

The world's first cocaine bar | World news | The Guardian

Anyone who thinks a "War on Drugs" is winnable should read this article. Demand for drugs may be greatest in America, but it is a global demand. All of the very potent arguments against drug use fail in light of one compelling fact--drugs are desired.

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Is there any sane person who claims that it is "winnable"? A "war" on any crime is inherently not winnable.

Redress said:

Is there any sane person who claims that it is "winnable"? A "war" on any crime is inherently not winnable.

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Then why wage war when it is nothing more than a waste of resources?? just because it is the status quo and we cannot fathom getting past a sense of overwhelming apathy when it comes to changing the status quo?

Redress said:

Is there any sane person who claims that it is "winnable"? A "war" on any crime is inherently not winnable.

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So why keep fighting it?

I know you're not a fan of legalization, and I realize that it is not (yet) politically palatable in this country--although I dare say marijuana might have a chance soon--but what strategic option to dealing with narcotrafficantes such as La Familia and Arrellano Felix is likely to prevail? What other means is going to starve their operations of needed cash?

marduc said:

yeah I almost threw that in, but figured the sentence was already getting borderline run on as it were.

I also left out that the businesses do not actively attempt to usurp or undermine police, military or governments as well (well through violence at least.. lobbyists could be construed to be doing just such a thing)

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Well, even lobbyists are better than piles of dead bodies. Barely.

celticlord said:

So why keep fighting it?

I know you're not a fan of legalization, and I realize that it is not (yet) politically palatable in this country--although I dare say marijuana might have a chance soon--but what strategic option to dealing with narcotrafficantes such as La Familia and Arrellano Felix is likely to prevail? What other means is going to starve their operations of needed cash?

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Why do we fight against robbery? Have we prevailed against the mob in this country? Hve we, without legalizing things, made them less powerful? I think we have to stop with unrealistic goals, and accept realistic ones. This means doing as much good against them as possible, but realizing that in the current political climate, decriminalization is years off.

Note: I am not actively opposed to marijuana legalization. I would not support it, and tend to lean towards the idea it's not the best idea, but I certainly would not oppose it.

celticlord said:

So why keep fighting it?

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You could ask the same about the endless war on crime. We punish rapists and murderers and burglars. Yet the battle never ends. Each year we find more rapists, murderers and burglars to prosecute. Should we toss in the towel and walk away because we can't stop crime?

I've witnessed first hand how hard drugs (HARD DRUGS) destroy lives. I've seen the financial ruin and the devastating physical and emotional toll they take. There is little doubt in my mind that if HARD DRUGS are legalized the cost we'd all pay to care for all the idiots who get hooked will sky-rocket.

Personally, I'd rather spend the money on law-enforcement and prisons than on hospitals, doctors, and social workers. That's just my preference. Perhaps because I think police are more productive than social workers. Just my opinion.

:2wave:

Grateful Heart said:

You could ask the same about the endless war on crime. We punish rapists and murderers and burglars. Yet the battle never ends. Each year we find more rapists, murderers and burglars to prosecute. Should we toss in the towel and walk away because we can't stop crime?

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There is a fundamental difference between the two classes of criminal: There is an innocent victim in a rape. Which makes it an actual crime. The problem with the drug war is that we are not getting rid of criminals, but rather creating them. It's not just a war we can't win. It's one we should not even be fighting and one that is creating its own set of problems, just like prohibition before it. Funny how fail to learn from our own history.

I've witnessed first hand how hard drugs (HARD DRUGS) destroy lives. I've seen the financial ruin and the devastating physical and emotional toll they take. There is little doubt in my mind that if HARD DRUGS are legalized the cost we'd all pay to care for all the idiots who get hooked will sky-rocket.

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So, you do support making anything that can "destory lives" and cost the tax payer money illegal? Because I have quite a list for you.

Personally, I'd rather spend the money on law-enforcement and prisons than on hospitals, doctors, and social workers. That's just my preference. Perhaps because I think police are more productive than social workers. Just my opinion.

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I would prefer not spending money on either. But think of it this way. If the drugs were legal and taxed the drug users would be paying for their own treatment. How great is that? Problem solved! And we'd be saving massive money on the over burdened prison and court system, too.

Grateful Heart said:

I've witnessed first hand how hard drugs (HARD DRUGS) destroy lives. I've seen the financial ruin and the devastating physical and emotional toll they take. There is little doubt in my mind that if HARD DRUGS are legalized the cost we'd all pay to care for all the idiots who get hooked will sky-rocket.

:2wave:

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I have also witnessed lives very close to me being destroyed (ex fiance), and terminated (cousin I grew up with, murdered in a heroin deal) as a result of hard drugs.

This is why I am a staunch proponent of legalization and control.

Drugs are too dangerous to NOT be controlled.

stekim said:

There is a fundamental difference between the two classes of criminal: There is an innocent victim in a rape. Which makes it an actual crime. The problem with the drug war is that we are not getting rid of criminals, but rather creating them.

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Quoted cause this is spot on.

Grateful Heart said:

You could ask the same about the endless war on crime. We punish rapists and murderers and burglars. Yet the battle never ends. Each year we find more rapists, murderers and burglars to prosecute. Should we toss in the towel and walk away because we can't stop crime?

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We don't have rapist gangs and murder gangs and burglary gangs the way we have drug gangs. Drug trafficking is a principal source of funds for the major street gangs in this country as well as the drug lords in Mexico.

It really is an apples and oranges comparison. Drug trafficking is not just a crime, it is also a global black market commercial activity--complete with "brand names" and merchandising tricks at the "retail" level.

Drug use is about as smart as smoking cigarettes, yet I don't hear anyone arguing for outlawing tobacco. (tobacco destroys at least as many lives as drugs through cancer, emphysema, and related nasty obnoxious ways to die). Alcohol can have a similarly destructive capacity, yet no one is arguing to bring back Prohibition.

The sobering reality is that our vaunted "War on Drugs" is funding a low-level civil war just south of the Rio Grande, and I personally would like to see that funding stop before we succeed in turning Mexico into another failed state just like Afghanistan, Somalia and a few other fun tourist destinations around the world.

celticlord said:

We don't have rapist gangs and murder gangs and burglary gangs the way we have drug gangs. Drug trafficking is a principal source of funds for the major street gangs in this country as well as the drug lords in Mexico.

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So, would you also be in favor of doing away with human trafficking laws, since we have gangs in this country (and organized crime) that traffick in humans?

Just curious.

Catz Part Deux said:

So, would you also be in favor of doing away with human trafficking laws, since we have gangs in this country (and organized crime) that traffick in humans?

Just curious.

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Not as such, but I would be in favor of reforming immigration laws as well as laws prohibiting the sex trade to remove the levers used to ply the human trafficking trade.

Humans should not be bought and sold at market, nor kidnapped, nor assaulted, and human trafficking involves all three. However, a large part of what sustains human trafficking is the black market sex trade. Bring the market into the regular economy and the revenue streams for human trafficking dry up.

apdst said:

Legalizing alcohol put the Mafia out of business? Legalizing alcohol put an end the illegal liquir business? The answer is a resounding, no.

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When repeal of Prohibition occurred in 1933, organized crime lost nearly all of its black market alcohol profits in most states (states still had the right to enforce their own laws concerning alcohol consumption) because of competition with low-priced alcohol sales at legal liquor stores.

[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prohibition_in_the_United_States]Prohibition in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

apdst said:

Did I say they would take it as some kind of ****ing concession? No, I didn't.

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Did I say that you said that they would take it as some kind of ****ing concession? No, I didn't. :lol:

Bodhisattva said:

When repeal of Prohibition occurred in 1933, organized crime lost nearly all of its black market alcohol profits in most states (states still had the right to enforce their own laws concerning alcohol consumption) because of competition with low-priced alcohol sales at legal liquor stores.

Prohibition in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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Then, of course, the mafia moved to gambling and other illegal drugs. But, naturally, it totally ended the mafia-run black market in booze.