Analysis: Liberals tired of healthcare compromises [edited]

Morality Games said:

That's not what the Republican Party is after, however. They want political capital for future elections and will take it at any opportunity, to hell with any problems Medicare/Medicaid or the private sector might have.

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america don't give a fig about gop MOTIVATIONS

your thinking, pardon my frankness, is so FEMALE

america wants and expects RESULTS

from the PARTY in POWER

get to it

mom's outta work, the kids are cold, the house payment's late and dad's on dope

FIX IT

^^Don't give them any more fuel. They've screwed up the economy enough as it is.

america don't give a fig about gop MOTIVATIONS

your thinking, pardon my frankness, is so FEMALE

america wants and expects RESULTS

from the PARTY in POWER

get to it

mom's outta work, the kids are cold, the house payment's late and dad's on dope

FIX IT

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I can't do anything other than feel good about myself. My party is actually addressing the issues Bush categorically ignored for eight years. In itself, that makes us superior. Success? That'll be nice too.

Anyway, your thinking is flawed. Your position is tantamount to declaring Republican Congressmen deserve to be salaried for not addressing chronic budget and private sector problems, as opposed to engaging in the issue to the utmost of their power, which is rather significant, minority party or not.

phattonez said:

Did you ever think that Medicare/Medicaid cause more problems than they solve?

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That's not possible. The private sector won't cover recipients of Medicare/Medicaid because they are intrinsically unprofitable and can only hurt business. That population consists of many tens of millions of Americans, many of whom are elderly and dependent on the program for their increasing medical and surgical needs, the rest of whom are participants in the economy. Medicare/Medicaid essentially exists to prevent tens of millions of Americans -- who on family and friend grounds are themselves emotionally involved with hundreds of millions of other Americans -- from slipping into the danger of premature death and irreversible body damage from untreated sicknesses and injuries. Even if we want to assume that the humanitarian concerns implicit in this situation are in no way an issue the United States government need concern itself with, psychological and economic inevitability would demand some form of protection be extended to the uncovered Americans. And since the only institution capable of non-profit orientated health care is government, it is a pretty narrow field to see who will be charged with the responsibility and the bill.

Morality Games said:

the president is backing off the necessity of the public insurance option -- purposelessly to my mind, but whatever

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is he?

is he, really?

or is he just backing off kinda/sorta?

you never really know with this guy, now, do you?

half his party insists he isn't

why his own press secty THIS MORNING said he isn't, altho the "whistles have been blowing for weeks," he bizarrely added

ms sebelius says she was and she wasn't

AT THE SAME TIME

kinda like the time treas secty geithner and chief econ adviser summers went on mtp and ftn to suggest raising taxes on the middle class

FOR ONE DAY

now, there's LEADERSHIP

them's the ANSWERS america CRAVES

almost as good as GOING BACK IN TIME

LOL!

get real

Morality Games said:

That's not possible. The private sector won't cover recipients of Medicare/Medicaid because they are intrinsically unprofitable and can only hurt business.

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It is possible. Medicare and Medicaid raise prices for the rest of us.

phattonez said:

It is possible. Medicare and Medicaid raise prices for the rest of us.

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Who is "us"? I don't know about you, but most of us have grandparents or poorer relatives and take a dim view of allowing Darwinian evolution to take its course with regard to them. The only people who are supportive of repealing the programs are idealistic people who are incapable of fathoming the concept of historical inevitability. Not even the most libertarian of Republicans would consider running on the motion because they would immediately get hung out to dry by the hundreds of millions of voters who either directly or indirectly rely on Medicare/Medicaid for peace of mind. It's not part of the platform of any political party and so far as I know isn't supported by any grassroots organization -- and certainly not by any influential one.

The Prof said:

america don't give a fig about gop MOTIVATIONS

your thinking, pardon my frankness, is so FEMALE

america wants and expects RESULTS

from the PARTY in POWER

get to it

mom's outta work, the kids are cold, the house payment's late and dad's on dope

FIX IT

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So very true. The democrats are acting as if they are still the sidelined party that isn't in power. They have a super majority in the senate and a solid majority in the house and yet, they still can't get their mofo act together to come up with a bill that has some teeth and actually serves the purpose of true healthcare reform?
Albeit the democrats now have more intellectuals as government officials than the republicans, but the republicans have the unapologetic cajones that the democrats do not have.
They're worried that they're bill won't work and thus are there compromising with republicans that are laughing all the way home at how easy it is to derail these idiots with nothing more than lies, deceit and sabotage.
The remaining republicans in office today are predominantly those that are solid red from very conservative constituencies - there are no more moderates that are left and even those that are don't dare to really speak out.
Dems really need to grow a pair bite the bullet and shoot for the moon with the best possible most liberal and progressive bill that actually reforms health care rather than just paying lip service.
Same with climate change.

Morality Games said:

I can't do anything other than feel good about myself. My party is actually addressing the issues Bush categorically ignored for eight years. In itself, that makes us superior. Success? That'll be nice too.



That's not possible. The private sector won't cover recipients of Medicare/Medicaid because they are intrinsically unprofitable and can only hurt business. That population consists of many tens of millions of Americans, many of whom are elderly and dependent on the program for their increasing medical and surgical needs, the rest of whom are participants in the economy. Medicare/Medicaid essentially exists to prevent tens of millions of Americans -- who on family and friend grounds are themselves emotionally involved with hundreds of millions of other Americans -- from slipping into the danger of premature death and irreversible body damage from untreated sicknesses and injuries. Even if we want to assume that the humanitarian concerns implicit in this situation are in no way an issue the United States government need concern itself with, psychological and economic inevitability would demand some form of protection be extended to the uncovered Americans. And since the only institution capable of non-profit orientated health care is government, it is a pretty narrow field to see who will be charged with the responsibility and the bill.

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i'm glad you feel good about yourself, you should, you're a very smart man, and you seem like a real good guy, too

no cheap shots, thanks

you make way too many excuses, tho

and GOING BACK IN TIME is absurd, you really should be a bit embarrassed about that one

if you feel so strongly about medicare and medicaid you perhaps should look at the arithmetic that's gonna bring MASSIVE CUTS to them

THIS is what's so UPSET the seniors

now, THERE's some MOTIVATION worth considering

america doesn't care about gop motivation

but america is super interested in america's motivations

and you can't win SQUAT politically if you piss off the seniors

you really need to re-look at what the IDIOT in the white house is SAYING about M&M funding

The Prof said:

you really need to re-look at what the IDIOT in the white house is SAYING about M&M funding

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What is the idiot in the white house saying about M/M funding?

Morality Games said:

Health care expenditures in the United States are only one of several private sector problems which endanger the longterm viability of the middle class. But they are in the singular one of the largest, along with house payments and other forms of debt. There is no unitary way of addressing the decline of the middle class, but a cap on premiums would contribute toward the solution.

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So would a reduction in overall health care usage due to people not being fat, not smoking, and not feeling entitled to uneconomical end of life care. Guess which one would cost more?

1. It receives sizable subsidies to meet humanitarian goals it performs poorly at because of mis-use.

2. It price gouges.

3. Medicare/Medicaid are integrated into the private sector.

Medicare and Medicaid are operational successes; most of their recipients are pleased with the services they receive and would not have otherwise been eligible for health insurance due to redlining, which was the publicly approved and politically necessary goal at the time and which has been validated by most members of both parties since. Financing could have been better managed, which is one of the ideas behind reform.

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:rofl

Saying that Medicare/aid are operational successes but merely suffer from financing problems is incredibly disingenuous.

If I opened a restaurant that provided all you could eat filet mignon for 99 cents, my patrons would certainly be pleased and would be able to receive filet for a price that they never would have been able to find anywhere else.

Of course, the fact that my restaurant is doomed to collapse sort of overshadows any enjoyment they might derive.

Who cares if people like a program if it's so intrinsically flawed as to collapse before the majority of people paying into it can ever withdraw from it? The only reason people on Medicare/aid "like" it today is because it's being paid for by someone else.

he says he's discovered 2/3 of all the money he needs to pay for his jovian ambitions in the areas of waste, fraud and abuse, wellness/prevention, IT and SHAVINGS (he calls em savings) from m&m

i see this as a SLAP to ted kennedy who devoted his entire life but was apparently just TOO DUMB to find what the kid discovered in a box under a bed, or something, in the lincoln bedroom

on friday july 17, the day after cbo elmendorf testified in baucus' gateway cmte, senate finance, that the cost curve bent the wrong way, kicking out entire the total prop underpinning obama's entire health care agenda (which, recall, is ECONOMIC, not an issue of fairness, not a matter of social justice, no, obama's prime premise for doing health care in the first place, repeated ad nauseum---we can't AFFORD to do nothing, ie, economics)

the day after july 16, the biggest, most important day in this young presidency (it was also the day the bluedogs made PUBLIC their reservations with obamacare, july 16), on friday the 17th, obama called an emergency afternoon press conference to try to get the initiative back

and that was the first time he ever announced to the world that he'd serendipitously, magically "found" all this 2/3 of the cash he needed

(i knew the very instant he was toast, i was watching live, i'm a school teacher and home on vacation---for one more day, damnit, then back to work for me)

he actually added, i couldn't believe it---i only have to come up with 1/3 of the money

what an INSULT to the grownups like our friend above on this thread who CAN do arithmetic

since then, obama has repeated his 2/3 "findings" and 1/3 "need" mantra everywhere he's gone

the primetime presser which he ruined by bringing up the cambridge cop (i forget the date), he pushed his 2/3 and 1/3

the michael jackson funeral reprise, his town hall at portsmouth, last tuesday, a week ago today (or yesterday, depending on where you are)

grand junction on saturday

every time he says it i cringe

long answer, friend, but i respect your independence

the upshot---by cbo scoring, by ap (associated press) accounts, i can provide the link, he looks to 500 million dollars of savings/shavings off m and m

aarp on sunday's fns---we're not concerned, we can save money and get BETTER care

yeah, and moons are cheeses

this is aarp LEADERSHIP we're talking

that is, NOT membership

etc

i could go on, friend, forever

you and i are on opposite sides, but i like the way you man up and don't make excuses

you WON

kick ASS

or give someone else the ball

cliff

Morality Games said:

I'll be waiting for your proposal on how to solve the Medicare/Medicaid problem and rising health insurance premiums/stagnant wages with great anticipation.

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That bill would have been a death knell for my future, so I'll send you my proposal as soon as I'm done celebrating.

Morality Games said:

Health care expenditures in the United States are only one of several private sector problems which endanger the longterm viability of the middle class. But they are in the singular one of the largest, along with house payments and other forms of debt. There is no unitary way of addressing the decline of the middle class, but a cap on premiums would contribute toward the solution.

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You really need to check your statistics.

If folks are disappearing from the "middle class", it's because they are getting richer, not poorer. Poverty rates overall have been declining for decades.

Morality Games said:

Who is "us"? I don't know about you, but most of us have grandparents or poorer relatives and take a dim view of allowing Darwinian evolution to take its course with regard to them. The only people who are supportive of repealing the programs are idealistic people who are incapable of fathoming the concept of historical inevitability. Not even the most libertarian of Republicans would consider running on the motion because they would immediately get hung out to dry by the hundreds of millions of voters who either directly or indirectly rely on Medicare/Medicaid for peace of mind. It's not part of the platform of any political party and so far as I know isn't supported by any grassroots organization -- and certainly not by any influential one.

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Thanks for agreeing with me. It's a program that raises prices for all of us. They do have negative effects.

RightinNYC said:

Hypo:

Let's say you happen to like your local bar. It's a bit of a dive and some people in town are unhappy with it, but you're largely content with the way it's run. Now imagine that a group of people get together and propose that the bar be converted into an upscale club with bottle service and B&T trash. You don't like that idea, and would much prefer that things remain the way they are. You acknowledge that there are things that could be improved from the status quo, but you would much prefer what you have now to this new type of bar.

Now, would you consider yourself to be a member of the "party of no" or someone who was totally devoid of ideas? Or would you consider yourself to be someone who simply disagreed with the proposed changes?

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Well...lets see...if its a dive and you are content with it although acknowledge that there are things that could be improved but offer no ideas on how to do it...yes, I would say that you are totally devoid of ideas.

Thanks for the excellent analogy. The current healthcare system is a dive and the "party of no" is content with the dive and completely devoid of ideas even though they understand and acknowledge that the dive needs to be overhauled.

disneydude said:

Well...lets see...if its a dive and you are content with it although acknowledge that there are things that could be improved but offer no ideas on how to do it...yes, I would say that you are totally devoid of ideas.

Thanks for the excellent analogy. The current healthcare system is a dive and the "party of no" is content with the dive and completely devoid of ideas even though they understand and acknowledge that the dive needs to be overhauled.

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NYC said:

They have an obligation to go along with negotiations on a proposal they oppose?

Let's pretend it's 2005 and the GOP is trying to gin up support for an invasion of Russia. If the Democrats flat-out opposed that proposal, would they be the "party of no"? Would you accuse them of "refusing to engage in policy" unless they proposed a half-measure, like invading Mexico?

It's completely legitimate for a party to say "this is a bad proposal and we do not support it."

(This of course ignores the fact that the Republicans have proposed changes, but I don't want to distract from your already flawed argument by getting into this.)

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...........

Shhhhh Right!

You're not supposed to point out that conservatives and republicans have stated alternatives. Then, when you do point that out, they'll complain how they've not tried to pass any legitimate legislation on it since this started while completely ignoring the fact that doing so would be a futile waste of time since the republicans are in a large minority and any bill would essentially be DOA.

But I'm more enjoying watching Morality Games being filled with the essence of GWB and channeling him in perfect "With us or against us" rhetoric.

they also express surprise (LOL!) that we just can't "compromise" with that NANCY PELOSI CLONE in the white house

personification of san francisco EXTREMISM

if anything, this white house runs LEFT of the palsied speakeress

genuine frenchified socialist

if he sincerely wants to DEAL, then, umm, he'd need to DEAL

if he wants to DICTATE, let him try

either way, he and his need to GROW UP

all this WHINING is turning off AMERICA

we conservatives have been pretty grossed out since our 3rd or so hour of having to stare at that damned CHIN

it's all he's got, y'know, obama

his CHIN

you take away obama's CHIN, aint nothing there

disneydude said:

AMEN!

Analysis: Liberals tired of health care compromise - Yahoo! News

Liberal activists say there's no point in the Democrats winning the House, Senate and White House unless they use their clout to enact the major measures that Obama campaigned for — with or without some Republican support (Absolutely!)

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This is indeed true and a FACT. In addition, if the Liberal Democrats decide that they want to SHOVE this down our throats, they also OWN this program, the resulting deficits and the massive tax increases that will be the result of this Government Power grab.

disneydude said:

"It is clear that Republicans have decided 'no health care' is a victory for them," Andy Stern, president of the Service Employees International Union, said in an interview. "There is a point at which bipartisanship reaches a limit, and I would say it's reaching that limit (DUH!)

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This hyperbolic blather is beyond false, it is an outright lie and attempt to demagogue the issue.

Republicans have never been for "NO HEALTH CARE," but rather NO GOVERNMENT managed care which they KNOW will result in massive deficits, massive tax increases and mediocre care with long waiting times and Government entities making decisions for rationing care.

disneydude said:

For liberals supporting far-reaching changes to the nation's health care system, it was another sign that months of negotiations have been a one-way street. It's time to move on without Republicans[/B] (They're starting to get it).

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Once again this is the OBVIOUS. But what is not so obvious and subtle is that it is not Republicans who are blocking this legislation. This is another LIE propagated by Liberal Democrats who are desperately providing cover to the FACT that Democrats also do not support this profoundly DUMB idea.

I say go for it Democrats; vote for the bill and let's see who REALLY supports it.

The TRUTH is that Obama and his cabal want some cover for this legislation in the event the REALITIES and TRUTH of what such a program will do to us happen; that way they can desperately suggest that it was a "bi-partisan" effort. :rofl

disneydude said:

There's absolutely no point in trying to negotiate with the "party of no".

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Another desperate LIE being spewed by Liberals in an attempt to suggest there cannot be any alternative to their Government managed proposals.

Yet there are MANY different options and without an HONEST dialogue regarding this extremely important issue we won't make the BEST decision and choice for Americans.

Honesty is something Democrats have never been very good at.

disneydude said:

Obama needs to realize that having a few Republicans on board to make him "look better" is less a priority that getting meaningful healthcare reform passed.

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In this statement we are BOTH in agreement 100%. But then, Obama knows this, he is just trying to provide cover for fellow Democrats who do not support the plan.

Again; this is NOT a Republican issue. They don't need Republicans and have the majorities to pass this poorly thought out 1,000 page gobbledy-gook legislation without any Republicans. This is indeed a DEMOCRAT issue and a dilemma for the Democrat Party that spends a great deal of time and money to demagogue conservatives knowing full well that many within their own party are also "conservatives" and will not support this massive joke of a legislation authored by the extremists currently leading their party.

disneydude said:

The Democrats can do this without 1 Republican vote. Its time for the Democrats to grow a spine and get to work.

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And I say; GO FOR IT!! :rofl

Re: Liberals tired of healthcare compromises

SouthernDemocrat said:

Their problem is not the Republicans. They have solid majorities and the Republicans were not going to vote for any bill they put forth anyway because there are hardly any moderates at all left in the Republican party.

The Democrats have to get the moderate and blue dog Democrats on board, that is their problem.

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I've been writing to the politicians in my state to give them my thoughts. I promised myself I'd do it once a week (that hasn't worked out well) but I am trying to be somewhat consistent in writing them.

You can only do what you can do but doing nothing is just nothing.

:shrug:

You're not supposed to point out that conservatives and republicans have stated alternatives. Then, when you do point that out, they'll complain how they've not tried to pass any legitimate legislation on it since this started while completely ignoring the fact that doing so would be a futile waste of time since the republicans are in a large minority and any bill would essentially be DOA.

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That almost makes it sound as though I flat out denied the Republicans had forwarded alternatives at all, but I'm sure you wouldn't be that disgenous. What they did was present some sketches and prostrate themselves for being the abused minority party, pretty much just so they could claim afterwards that they were not the party of no ideas. That might fly by people with short attention spans, but they receive no credit from me. Now if you can come up with a reason for why they deserve credit other than they technically did something (nowhere near what they were capable of doing), I’ll submit defeat on that point.

As it is, the constitution of the Democratic Party and Republican policy history suggests there was much more they could have done, had they been genuinely interested in securing the best possible policy change on their terms. As it is, that has not been their focus. They don't care about the issues at stake anymore than they did during the Bush Administration when everyone was fretting about them but nobody was doing anything about them.

You really need to check your statistics.

If folks are disappearing from the "middle class", it's because they are getting richer, not poorer. Poverty rates overall have been declining for decades.

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… I don’t know what measurements you are going by. I’ll assume they have adjusted for the soaring middle class debt (sarcasm – I’m not really going to assume that at all). Also, there was an explosion in middle class toward the beginning of the second half of the 20th century which would ‘overall’ tip the scales toward an increase, but that’s as trivial as it is true.

But I'm more enjoying watching Morality Games being filled with the essence of GWB and channeling him in perfect "With us or against us" rhetoric.

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Yeah, that's what I said.

First of all, the more the Republicans don't engage on the issue, the happier I am. That decreases the number of influences dividing the Democratic Party and thus toning down the strength of the reform. I don't want them with me -- against me is really what I expect and what I want. I've stated again and again on many threads that I think attempting to be bipartisan with Republicans is a colossal waste of time.

But speaking on theoretical grounds, as salaried public officials who represent constituencies and have a duty to address budgetary concerns, they are responsible for their lack of engagement.

agree wholeheartedly. thanks!

disneydude said:

From Day 1 the Republicans drew a line in the sand and said "We are the party of no"....be it with the Stimulus and a host of other issues. This is no different.

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This is again a massive lie propagated by Liberals who have no desire to deal honestly with what has been happening.

It begs the question; why do Liberals and some Democrats spew such a preposterous lie in a vacuum of the facts, the truth and honesty? :roll:

Here's a question for Liberals; why is it that during Bush's Presidency Liberals and Democrats spent every waking moment claiming the deficit was irresponsible and that Bush needed to raise taxes, yet now with massive deficits beyond any we have seen in our history not one peep from Liberals and Democrats about raising everyone's taxes.

The notion that this administration is capable of doing what NO other administration has done or can do in reality, that is to SAVE so much they wont have to raise taxes, requires willful denial beyond logical reasoning.

Let's face it; this party is so corrupt and incompetent that it cannot even begin extracting itself from it's own lies and distortions.

Read my lips people; ONE POINT EIGHT TRILLION and CLIMBING. There is no revenue increasing with this economic decline and the efforts by these MORONS are only going to cause further losses in Government revenue.

The Democrats KNOW this is what is happening, they KNOW that if they were to be honest and RAISE taxes it will cause them to lose even MORE seats in Congress than they are already facing and therefore they want to broom this under the carpet until after the mid-term elections.

Those are the FACTS and that is the TRUTH in these debates. The FACT that Obama is avoiding an honest discussion about how he will pay for the already massive deficits we have now on top of the additional massive deficits a Government option health plan will cause speaks VOLUMES to the American people of how low Liberals and their Democrat allies have sunk and why they have to demagogue their political opponents rather than engage in honest discourse.

:2wave:

disneydude said:

There's absolutely no point in trying to negotiate with the "party of no".

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Have the liberals considered offering a plan that Republicans might support?
That is, after all, what bi-partisanship is.

No matter how hard you try, you cannot get past the fact that if The Obama's plan fails, it is because the DEMOCRATS failed to pass it.

insuperable problems still remaining with obamacare, even after the elimination of "death panels" and the "public option"

ask baucus, conrad, durbin, bill clinton, mccaskill, bayh, lincoln, landrieu, pryor, dorgan...

ask bluedogs, freshmen, democrat governors (bill richardson, bill ritter, phil bredesen, christine gregoire), CBO...

1. it FINES individuals caught breathing without insurance

2. it forces individuals who can't afford it in the first place to purchase coverage for themselves, hardly the help they were promised

3. it includes massive cuts to medicare and medicaid, alienating seniors

4. it includes coverage of illegals, per the killing of heller in rangel's ways and means, july 17, which would have enforced use of e-verify to ensure only citizens receive coverage

5. it generalizes funding of abortion, bluedog bugaboo

6. it taxes small biz 8% if they don't insure their workers, either route sure to kill thousands of small companies currently barely afloat in today's troubled clime

7. it looks to end of life costs for scary savings, once more freaking out our seniors

8. it taxes benefits, the kerry cadillac clause, which measure murdered mccain during campaign

9. it "surcharges" incomes over 250G, 350 for couples, politically problematic

10. it bends the cost curve the wrong way, says the mathematician, elmendorf, at cbo

sorry