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French pool bans 'burkini' swim

Are we talking about foolish individuals or are we talking about government policies?

I'm talking about an important proportion of newcomers, who are numerous enough to impose a ban on non-halal food in schools or to impose that swimming pools are reserved to women on saturday morning.
 
I'm talking about an important proportion of newcomers, who are numerous enough to impose a ban on non-halal food in schools or to impose that swimming pools are reserved to women on saturday morning.

I don't think it's an outright ban. I think the schools just decided that having one cook for everyone was easier and cheaper than to have two.

I read that it's very easy to obtain citizenship in Belgium after just 3 years of living there. Is that true? If it is, then it's not enough and no wonder you find yourself with an increasingly powerful group of "newcomers" in your political scene.
 
I'm talking about an important proportion of newcomers, who are numerous enough to impose a ban on non-halal food in schools or to impose that swimming pools are reserved to women on saturday morning.

I can understand a backlash.
 
I don't think it's an outright ban. I think the schools just decided that having one cook for everyone was easier and cheaper than to have two.

Indeed I don't think that it's a real ban...but all the schools still do it, that's the problem. And that's not just the food, that's also the physical education courses (most of the muslim girls don't attend this course), the science course (80% of the muslims in Belgium are creationists, even at University...that's a big problem in a country where everyone accepts Darwinism), the French courses (they avoid certain authors), the history course (the teachers avoid talking about Israel or the Holocaust, and some teachers have been threatened when they started talking about the Armenian holocaust)

I read that it's very easy to obtain citizenship in Belgium after just 3 years of living there. Is that true? If it is, then it's not enough and no wonder you find yourself with an increasingly powerful group of "newcomers" in your political scene.

Yeah we give the citizenship to nearly everyone...(we even have a bunch of "Belgian" Jihadists who planned to attack the USA) and that's not enough, illegals are demonstrating (and squatting and destroying several buildings in the process), claiming that they all have the right to get the nationality.



So, yeah, I think we've been a bit too laxist the past 10 years. Now it's too much, there is a backlash
 
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I don't think it's an outright ban. I think the schools just decided that having one cook for everyone was easier and cheaper than to have two.

I read that it's very easy to obtain citizenship in Belgium after just 3 years of living there. Is that true? If it is, then it's not enough and no wonder you find yourself with an increasingly powerful group of "newcomers" in your political scene.

I hate to derail the topic but I've heard it's hard to become a swissie.

Is that true as well?
From what I've read about Switzerland, I like it for the most part.
 
I hate to derail the topic but I've heard it's hard to become a swissie.

Is that true as well?
From what I've read about Switzerland, I like it for the most part.

One of the toughest countries for immigration I know. It's a little discriminatory too. Depending on where you come from it can take anywhere from 5 to 15 years or more and you'd better have lots of cash to pay for your brand new Swissiness. :)
 
One of the toughest countries for immigration I know. It's a little discriminatory too. Depending on where you come from it can take anywhere from 5 to 15 years or more and you'd better have lots of cash to pay for your brand new Swissiness. :)

:( I would like a secondary or primary citizenship somewhere else if for nothing else than to have more employment opportunities.

I started learning German for goodness sake.
 
:( I would like a secondary or primary citizenship somewhere else if for nothing else than to have more employment opportunities.

I started learning German for goodness sake.

Go to Belgium, within a few months you'll be as Belgian as me :mrgreen:
(and we speak German)
 
On my way....j/k although I may later take you up on that offer when I finish school.

Most people speech French though right?

French in the South, Dutch in the North, German in the East and French/English/Arab/Spanish in Brussels
 
didn't you post a road sign in Belgium once, that was written in like five different languages, lol
 
didn't you post a road sign in Belgium once, that was written in like five different languages, lol

They are in 4 languages only in some parts of Brussels (the train stations, the european parliament...) but usually they're just bilingual

bruxelles-brussel.jpg
 
The problem is when people import their theocracy in our countries. I'm serious, most people here are atheists and very liberal, and tensions are expectable when people who think like our great-grand-parents settle here.

I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to say here. People can try to import theocracy as much as they want. Less you're a weak country, it's not going to happen. People try to make this case in America...the Muslims are going to come and install Islamic law. Which is stupid because it won't happen. Muslims are of course free to exercise and express their religion so long as they don't infringe upon the rights of others in the process, but we're not going to change from a secular government.


You're kidding? It's the visible symbol of the ultra-conservatism of some people. Banning it won't solve the root of the problem, but at least it shows them that traditional-very conservative people are not welcome.

You seem to be really convinced that adults cannot make up their own minds. It's kinda condescending don't you think? There's nothing wrong with a swimming suit with a hood on it. Trying to make it into some sign of oppression or whatever is just downright silly. Adults made up their mind, let them. Their choice. So long as these things aren't enforced via law, there's no problem.

In my country religion is a private matter and we consider that you should not wear external signs of faith. We've removed the crosses from our schools and courts, we can expect newcomers not to do the contrary. A swimming pool is a public place, religion has nothing to do there.

In my country, religion is a private matter and we consider people free to practice and express their religion as they see fit so long as they don't infringe upon the rights of others in the process.

To be honest, I find your take on it sickening and against the fundamentals of freedom and liberty.
 
I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to say here. People can try to import theocracy as much as they want. Less you're a weak country, it's not going to happen. People try to make this case in America...the Muslims are going to come and install Islamic law. Which is stupid because it won't happen. Muslims are of course free to exercise and express their religion so long as they don't infringe upon the rights of others in the process, but we're not going to change from a secular government.

I'm not saying that they want to impose us their theocracy, but they don't integrate neither, and still live in "bubbles" of theocracy. You have whole districts in Brussels (but also in other cities in Europe) where 80 or 90% of the population comes from Morroco or Turkey, and they keep all of their customs. When you walk there, it's not Europe anymore!

I'm against that because I don't see the point of emigrating if it's to re-create the exact same place you left, with of course all the benefits of the host society (high unemployment insurances, free healthcare...)



You seem to be really convinced that adults cannot make up their own minds. It's kinda condescending don't you think? There's nothing wrong with a swimming suit with a hood on it. Trying to make it into some sign of oppression or whatever is just downright silly. Adults made up their mind, let them. Their choice. So long as these things aren't enforced via law, there's no problem.


We (in the Western societies) live the "2nd modernity". People are free, even inside the family: you can marry with whoever you want and the society doesn't have anything to say if you are homosexual or transexual...it's your private life and no one cares. The main characteristic is that you decide

However, that has not always been like that. Until 1960, our grandparents lived in the "1st modernity", where people were free, but not inside the family circle. And a few centuries ago, it was the "traditional" society where the family was totally included in the rest of the society. In both cases, inside the family, there was
- hierarchy => you are submitted to your father, everyone has its own place
- heteronomy => you don't decide, you obey an external rule decided by the society
- domination of the tradition => the goal of life is to respect the tradition and transmit it to your kids
Furthermore, while weddings are based on love in the 2nd modernity families, they were based on reason (money, heritage, power) in the 1st modernity & traditional families


While some Muslim people (the "integrated" ones) may live in the 2nd modernity, most of them still live in the "traditional" or "1st modernity" families. You can see that not only because they wear the most retrograde clothes, but also because, for example, they mary exclusively with countrymen. Did you know that only 3% of the Turks in Brussels marry with non-turks? From times to times, in the newspapers, you can read that a muslim girl commited suicide because she was forced to marry a 50 years old dude who had already 2 other wives.

Maybe that's not always the case, but that seems to happen quite frequently, and this is a sign of retrograde traditionalism that is contrary to our values and that is symbolized by clothes like the Burqa or the Burqini.


In my country, religion is a private matter and we consider people free to practice and express their religion as they see fit so long as they don't infringe upon the rights of others in the process.

To be honest, I find your take on it sickening and against the fundamentals of freedom and liberty.

As it was said in a previous post, the discussion about the Burqa or Burqini aren't solely about a piece of cloth. There has been a massive immigration of foreigners the last 30 years, and like in the previous waves of immigration, there are tensions. But this time it's different: they are so many in some areas that they don't integrate at all, that's the real problem. They keep all their own customs and traditions, and many people here don't find it normal.
 
I'm not saying that they want to impose us their theocracy, but they don't integrate neither, and still live in "bubbles" of theocracy. You have whole districts in Brussels (but also in other cities in Europe) where 80 or 90% of the population comes from Morroco or Turkey, and they keep all of their customs. When you walk there, it's not Europe anymore!

I'm against that because I don't see the point of emigrating if it's to re-create the exact same place you left, with of course all the benefits of the host society (high unemployment insurances, free healthcare...)


We (in the Western societies) live the "2nd modernity". People are free, even inside the family: you can marry with whoever you want and the society doesn't have anything to say if you are homosexual or transexual...it's your private life and no one cares. The main characteristic is that you decide

However, that has not always been like that. Until 1960, our grandparents lived in the "1st modernity", where people were free, but not inside the family circle. And a few centuries ago, it was the "traditional" society where the family was totally included in the rest of the society. In both cases, inside the family, there was
- hierarchy => you are submitted to your father, everyone has its own place
- heteronomy => you don't decide, you obey an external rule decided by the society
- domination of the tradition => the goal of life is to respect the tradition and transmit it to your kids
Furthermore, while weddings are based on love in the 2nd modernity families, they were based on reason (money, heritage, power) in the 1st modernity & traditional families


While some Muslim people (the "integrated" ones) may live in the 2nd modernity, most of them still live in the "traditional" or "1st modernity" families. You can see that not only because they wear the most retrograde clothes, but also because, for example, they mary exclusively with countrymen. Did you know that only 3% of the Turks in Brussels marry with non-turks? From times to times, in the newspapers, you can read that a muslim girl commited suicide because she was forced to marry a 50 years old dude who had already 2 other wives.

Maybe that's not always the case, but that seems to happen quite frequently, and this is a sign of retrograde traditionalism that is contrary to our values and that is symbolized by clothes like the Burqa or the Burqini.




As it was said in a previous post, the discussion about the Burqa or Burqini aren't solely about a piece of cloth. There has been a massive immigration of foreigners the last 30 years, and like in the previous waves of immigration, there are tensions. But this time it's different: they are so many in some areas that they don't integrate at all, that's the real problem. They keep all their own customs and traditions, and many people here don't find it normal.

....Bub just highlighted the main reasons why our governments here in the West need to do more to protect our wavering European cultures and traditions. Of course, such moves also need to work in such a way that they can sway the immigrants into integrating better, by feeling more like "one of us". This good old Belgium friend of mine also told me once about the formation of places like China Town and Little Italy; the immigrants usualy just stick together and dont mix with the native populace to integrate and adapt with our own, native traditions, culture and ways. Eventually, they will integrate, as they have done, but one has to answer the question; is this a normal, slow process of adaption to Europe with the Muslims as we have seen in the past with the Italians, Chinese etc, or does Islam have an inherent inability to allow them to do it?

If yes, then the EU needs to move in to tighten up immigration from non-EU members, and if they are to accept into the family a majority Muslim nation, they need to make sure that very nation is modern and progressive enough so as to make there migration within Europe as painless as possible.
 
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....Bub just highlighted the main reasons why our governments here in the West need to do more to protect our wavering European cultures and traditions. Of course, such moves also need to work in such a way that they can sway the immigrants into integrating better, by feeling more like "one of us". This good old Belgium friend of mine also told me once about the formation of places like China Town and Little Italy; the immigrants usualy just stick together and dont mix with the native populace to integrate and adapt with our own, native traditions, culture and ways. Eventually, they will integrate, as they have done, but one has to answer the question; is this a normal, slow process of adaption to Europe with the Muslims as we have seen in the past with the Italians, Chinese etc, or does Islam have an inherent inability to allow them to do it?

If yes, then the EU needs to move in to tighten up immigration from non-EU members, and if they are to accept into the family a majority Muslim nation, they need to make sure that very nation is modern and progressive enough so as to make there migration within Europe as painless as possible.

Thanks!

I'd like to add that it's not really about Islam, there are other factors (like 30% of unemployment in Brussels, or the fact that they're really numerous) that prevents their integration
 
I'm not saying that they want to impose us their theocracy, but they don't integrate neither, and still live in "bubbles" of theocracy. You have whole districts in Brussels (but also in other cities in Europe) where 80 or 90% of the population comes from Morroco or Turkey, and they keep all of their customs. When you walk there, it's not Europe anymore!

I'm against that because I don't see the point of emigrating if it's to re-create the exact same place you left, with of course all the benefits of the host society (high unemployment insurances, free healthcare...)






We (in the Western societies) live the "2nd modernity". People are free, even inside the family: you can marry with whoever you want and the society doesn't have anything to say if you are homosexual or transexual...it's your private life and no one cares. The main characteristic is that you decide

However, that has not always been like that. Until 1960, our grandparents lived in the "1st modernity", where people were free, but not inside the family circle. And a few centuries ago, it was the "traditional" society where the family was totally included in the rest of the society. In both cases, inside the family, there was
- hierarchy => you are submitted to your father, everyone has its own place
- heteronomy => you don't decide, you obey an external rule decided by the society
- domination of the tradition => the goal of life is to respect the tradition and transmit it to your kids
Furthermore, while weddings are based on love in the 2nd modernity families, they were based on reason (money, heritage, power) in the 1st modernity & traditional families


While some Muslim people (the "integrated" ones) may live in the 2nd modernity, most of them still live in the "traditional" or "1st modernity" families. You can see that not only because they wear the most retrograde clothes, but also because, for example, they mary exclusively with countrymen. Did you know that only 3% of the Turks in Brussels marry with non-turks? From times to times, in the newspapers, you can read that a muslim girl commited suicide because she was forced to marry a 50 years old dude who had already 2 other wives.

Maybe that's not always the case, but that seems to happen quite frequently, and this is a sign of retrograde traditionalism that is contrary to our values and that is symbolized by clothes like the Burqa or the Burqini.




As it was said in a previous post, the discussion about the Burqa or Burqini aren't solely about a piece of cloth. There has been a massive immigration of foreigners the last 30 years, and like in the previous waves of immigration, there are tensions. But this time it's different: they are so many in some areas that they don't integrate at all, that's the real problem. They keep all their own customs and traditions, and many people here don't find it normal.

Integrate them! In America the average time for integration is something like 1.4 generations for Europeans, 1.6 for Hispanic. We don't have the Muslim population that France has, but we have relatively not problems with any religious sect. If people live in our culture, they will always end up American in the end within a few generations tops.

One of France's problems is that they purposefully keep their Muslim population out of society and in the poorest areas of their country. You got to figure out how to handle the immigration and integration without infringing upon the rights of the individual. This whole swimsuit thing is over the line, it's xenophobic response aimed at oppression against a segment of their own population. Nothing more, nothing less. Y'all are gonna have to learn to deal or become fascist anti-theist governments like the commies.
 
Integrate them!

We'd like to but it's difficult when around 50% of the population of Brussels is made of foreigners
 
We'd like to but it's difficult when around 50% of the population of Brussels is made of foreigners

That's no excuse to infringe upon the rights of the individual as they are doing in France. You have to find a way to deal with it. But do so in a way which fosters freedom and liberty.
 
That's no excuse to infringe upon the rights of the individual as they are doing in France. You have to find a way to deal with it. But do so in a way which fosters freedom and liberty.

Do you also consider the ban on polygamy as being a breach to freedom & liberty?
 
Do you also consider the ban on polygamy as being a breach to freedom & liberty?

I would had it not been so early adopted by the United States as being a condition of joining the Union. I don't personally really care about polygamists so long as they aren't infringing upon the rights of others.
 
I would had it not been so early adopted by the United States as being a condition of joining the Union. I don't personally really care about polygamists so long as they aren't infringing upon the rights of others.

You do know, the fact that is doesn't infringe upon your own rights isn't a sufficient enough argument to legalize it. Fact is, from a moral view point, its wrong, thats why the law is there and in place, and if that doesn't sway your opinion, its to stop these conservative Christians and Muslims force marrying off there daughters to there cousins etc. In that respect, it has worked successfully, and so will the ban on the Bhurka. It is the sole right of the French government to preserve its culture, and if these people refuse to integrate, they become a burden to the native culture and so its up to the state to act accordingly and i believe this is a sufficient response.
 
It is the sole right of the French government to preserve its culture, and if these people refuse to integrate, they become a burden to the native culture and so its up to the state to act accordingly and i believe this is a sufficient response.

Maybe they should consider adjusting their immigration policies rather than imposing odious clothing bans.
 
Maybe they should consider adjusting their immigration policies rather than imposing odious clothing bans.

Exactly. But god forbid should Sarkozy realize the EU's immigration system, if not the EU in its entirety, is flawed.
 
You do know, the fact that is doesn't infringe upon your own rights isn't a sufficient enough argument to legalize it.

That's where I stop caring. If someone is not infringing upon the rights of others, I don't care what they do. Government is not a source of morals, nor should it ever be viewed as such. And the government has no place in regulating religions and their populations if those individuals are not infringing upon the rights of other people. Just a note, we have specific laws about marrying your cousin, so we don't need to use the government against religion to accomplish those means, you should look into it. It all ends there. Polygamy I personally do not care about, but there is precedent against it in this country. Que sera sera.

Also, one last thing. Governments do not have rights, only individuals have rights.
 
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