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French pool bans 'burkini' swim

I keep bringing up this point in similar threads, but banning these garments from public places is not going to make these women stop wearing them. They'll simply avoid going to those places and stay home. Maybe that's what these stupid rules are after, eh? Out of sight and out of mind?

The young woman in the in the OP, a French native who freely converted and chooses to wear these outfits, made it clear that she would rather leave her own country than be forced to dress in ways she disaproves of.

I can't believe the irony of forcing women to wear certain clothes to free them from being forced to wear certain clothes. How stupid can a concept get?


I completely agree, though I do believe that Muslim women are suppressed. However, it's up to them to change things, not any government.
 
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I completely agree, though I do believe that Muslim women are surpressed. However, it's up to them to change things, not any government.

The government can work to improve things in other ways, such as requiring recent immigrants to take language and culture classes, and requiring them to educate their children in public schools. Immigrants can be required to do all sorts of things in order to immigrate, and if France wants to maintain a national identity, they should focus on teaching immigrants to be French, rather than trying to dictate clothing choices.
 
Systematic oppression is one matter in which any liberal, western democracy SHOULD be involved. Telling this overzealous convert she cannot wear something may not be the best approach, but until such a time arises that women from Islamic countries achieve true parity, the struggle will continue.

The west or 'liberal western democracies' has no right to get involved in what a person wears nor should it ban. EVER.

How a person chooses to express one self is their own business.
And the west shouldn't stick it nose in to this 'struggle'. Let the Muslim countries deal with it on their own.
 
I completely agree, though I do believe that Muslim women are suppressed. However, it's up to them to change things, not any government.

Education would work better than 'ban ---'
 
Coming into this late...

I recall reading about a time when bikinis would be considered obscene in even Europe, and yet now excessive modesty is considered oppressive. I understood the burka thing more, but a swimming pool is different.

Also... what hygiene concerns?
 
The government can work to improve things in other ways, such as requiring recent immigrants to take language and culture classes, and requiring them to educate their children in public schools. Immigrants can be required to do all sorts of things in order to immigrate, and if France wants to maintain a national identity, they should focus on teaching immigrants to be French, rather than trying to dictate clothing choices.


That's a whole 'nother can of worms, I think. ;-)


I don't disagree with you, nor do I fully agree. To be honest, I don't know what they best answer would be. We here in Canada have a high number of immigrants, and it's a hot topic. From what I understand, it's always difficult for first generations to meld with the different culture/society. However, it does get easier for the later generations.
 
I need to change myself into a woman and then wear a burqa before I am qualified to post an illustration of a concept from U.S. history? You certainly do set the bar high, don't you.




Lost in all this conversation is the fact that this women is a recent CONVERT to Islam, and so yes, obviously her adoption of such a garment is by choice. It was certainly her choice to make this very aggressive, in-your-face symbolic gesture.

As for women who were actually rasied Muslim, the fact that they now live in the west is less important than the social networks that surround them. If they do not speak French, live in a ghettoized situation and are surrounded by compatriots almost exclusively, then French law or customs do not enter into their day to day decision making. In fact, the very act of wearing the Burqa (or niqab) is indication that they ARE NOT connected to French society. As such, whatever pressures that are being applied to them to wear such garments need to be taken into consideration.




You should try telling this to the woman in question who is using the wearing of a burkini as a political weapon.



Systematic oppression is one matter in which any liberal, western democracy SHOULD be involved. Telling this overzealous convert she cannot wear something may not be the best approach, but until such a time arises that women from Islamic countries achieve true parity, the struggle will continue.

Wait a second, let's not get carried away. It is France who placed the immigrant families in ghetos, it is not a choice to live in a ghetto. Actually the dream of every immigrant is to get the hell out of the horrible ghettos.

Is there a rise of radical Islamic movements in France and elsewhere ? yes

Does the isolation of the immigrants in ghettos worsen the situation? yes

There are also Muslims that are perfectly well assimilated in the French society and have key positions in business, arts, sports and the government.

I live only walking distance from Barbès in Paris where the population is in large majority Muslim. When the riots took place in the suburbs, the Muslim population here carried on with their lives as usual. Not one single sign of riot and violence. Why ? because they live in normal and well proportioned buildings in real neighbourhoods and not in the ghettos that you see in the suburbs.
 
So what are you saying? She's not a real enough Muslim for you? The gov't gets to make that distinction about someone's faith?

I'm saying that hers is a very calculated move that has everything to do with making an aggressive political statement and little to do with faith.
 
I'm saying that hers is a very calculated move that has everything to do with making an aggressive political statement and little to do with faith.

How do you know she just didn't want to go swimming? :confused:
 
It is my opinion that a state should have the right to preserve its culture.
There are about 5 million Muslims living in France today.
When I decide to go to France, I do so because I want to feel the French culture. This culture is being endangered by the raising amount of immigrants, immigrants that bring their cultures with them from home, and do not blend into the French society.
Same could be said about many Western-Europe nations today.
 
I'm saying that hers is a very calculated move that has everything to do with making an aggressive political statement and little to do with faith.

I doubt that. There are Muslims all over Europe, not just in France, that wear full body suits when going swimming. I think it was the swimming pool that wanted to make the statement.

France is racist as hell. I know because I"ve been there.
 
I doubt that. There are Muslims all over Europe, not just in France, that wear full body suits when going swimming. I think it was the swimming pool that wanted to make the statement.

France is racist as hell. I know because I"ve been there.
French are, socially, xenophobic people.
I wouldn't use the term 'racist', racism is a strong word, but it seems that this word has lost a lot of its value when every second person is using it twice a day.
 
How do you know she just didn't want to go swimming? :confused:

Being French born, had she simply wanted to go swimming she would have certainly done so the way she had always done.

It is the fact that she CHANGED her behavior that makes it so obvious that hers is a political statement.
 
It is my opinion that a state should have the right to preserve its culture.
There are about 5 million Muslims living in France today.
When I decide to go to France, I do so because I want to feel the French culture. This culture is being endangered by the raising amount of immigrants, immigrants that bring their cultures with them from home, and do not blend into the French society.
Same could be said about many Western-Europe nations today.

So does that mean you would be in favor of English as the national language of the US?
 
France is racist as hell. I know because I"ve been there.

Agreed.
Some of their attitudes, i have ran into some real racist french people who don't even seem to realise their views can be seen in that way.
 
French are, socially, xenophobic people.
I wouldn't use the term 'racist', racism is a strong word, but it seems that this word has lost a lot of its value when every second person is using it twice a day.

I actually don't use the term racist lightly, unlike a lot of PC people... but France is definitely a racist place, and it's because of its inherent xenophobia. The two are linked, for sure.
 
Being French born, had she simply wanted to go swimming she would have certainly done so the way she had always done.

It is the fact that she CHANGED her behavior that makes it so obvious that hers is a political statement.

So in your lifetime, you've never changed or evolved your beliefs, and you don't believe others have that right? Is that really what you're saying?
 
it's a swimsuit, period. the gov't has no right banning it. i'm actually surprised at this.
 
So in your lifetime, you've never changed or evolved your beliefs, and you don't believe others have that right? Is that really what you're saying?

Had I meant to say such a thing, believe me, I would have said so.
 
It is my opinion that a state should have the right to preserve its culture.
There are about 5 million Muslims living in France today.
When I decide to go to France, I do so because I want to feel the French culture. This culture is being endangered by the raising amount of immigrants, immigrants that bring their cultures with them from home, and do not blend into the French society.
Same could be said about many Western-Europe nations today.


Oieeeee, you're speaking just like Jean-Marie Le Pen or Philippe De Villiers.

So you're Israeli, how do you define Israeli culture? Isn't it a melting pot of many different cultural backgrounds ?

The majority of the Muslim immigrants are blending into the society just fine, the way the millions of Polish, Spanish, Italian, Portuguese, Armenian.... immigrants did before them. It might take a few generations and the end of the discrimination of the French against them and they will blend in just like papa dans maman.
 
Oieeeee, you're speaking just like Jean-Marie Le Pen or Philippe De Villiers.
Really, you can tell?
Did you share a room with them or something?
So you're Israeli, how do you define Israeli culture? Isn't it a melting pot of many different cultural backgrounds ?
Indeed it is, just like America, but there is a bigger culture that unites 'em all.

But wait, we're speaking about France here, France is not a melting pot, why would you bring up the subject, Mira?
The majority of the Muslim immigrants are blending into the society just fine, the way the millions of Polish, Spanish, Italian, Portuguese, Armenian.... immigrants did before them. It might take a few generations and the end of the discrimination of the French against them and they will blend in just like papa dans maman.
You are free to believe so.
It seems to me as if most of them aren't even trying to blend.
 
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