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French pool bans 'burkini' swim

Apocalypse said:
Really, you can tell?
Did you share a room with them or something?
Indeed it is, just like America, but there is a bigger culture that unites 'em all.

But wait, we're speaking about France here, France is not a melting pot, why would you bring up the subject, Mira?
You are free to believe so.
It seems to me as if most of them aren't even trying to blend.
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And when was the last time that you LIVED in France ?
 
Scarecrow Akhbar said:
Umm...keeping the swimming pool clean...?
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It's a public swimming pool...kids pee in those things. I don't think a full body swim suit is going to do much harm.

Scarecrow Akhbar said:
There's a rule against swimming while fully clothed. It's not discrimination. Any muslim that wants to swim, can, as soon as they follow the rules for pool use.
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Of course it's discriminatory. They know that some Muslims may wish to cover up or whatever. Their choice. What the hell is so terrible "swimming while fully clothed"? It's a swim suit designed with a hood, it's not less cleanly somehow or any of those BS arguments. If someone wants to, why should you get to say no? It's just xenophobia and that's it. France does not like Muslims and this law is purposefully aimed at that specific group.

Scarecrow Akhbar said:
If they don't like those rules, nothing is stopping them from building their own swimming pools....using their own money.
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There's always that, but it's pretty crappy to make such discriminatory laws and support them.


Scarecrow Akhbar said:
They are minding their own business.

Their business was to ensure people followed the rules regarding pool use.
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If they were minding their own damned business, they wouldn't be making laws about things which don't matter and which specifically target one religious group.

Scarecrow Akhbar said:
The damn female muslims in this country wanted to have their driver's license photos taken while their were wearing their masks....er veils. That didn't fly, fortunately. If they don't want to have their photo taken for their driver's license, with their full face showing, then they don't have to have a license....but they're not allowed to drive without that license, just like everyone else.
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I mentioned this earlier. It can be ok to demand an actual identifying picture on an ID or license. There are some things which religion doesn't trump. But this case of France and the swimsuit isn't one of them. This isn't getting a drivers license, this is going to a public pool and that's it. In a swim suit that covers more than swim suits normally do and that's it. In this case with what France is trying to do, this is nothing less than discrimination and xenophobia.
 
talloulou said:
The club I belong to doesn't allow clothes in the pool at all. Swimsuits only. For whatever reason many if not most public pools have this rule.
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What if it's a swimsuit with a hood? Like this thingie that chick wanted to wear?
 
Orius said:
Coming into this late...

I recall reading about a time when bikinis would be considered obscene in even Europe, and yet now excessive modesty is considered oppressive. I understood the burka thing more, but a swimming pool is different.

Also... what hygiene concerns?
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Really. What are the hygiene concerns?
 
Ikari said:
I
I mentioned this earlier. It can be ok to demand an actual identifying picture on an ID or license. There are some things which religion doesn't trump. But this case of France and the swimsuit isn't one of them. This isn't getting a drivers license, this is going to a public pool and that's it. In a swim suit that covers more than swim suits normally do and that's it. In this case with what France is trying to do, this is nothing less than discrimination and xenophobia.
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Speaking of ID cards, during the French colonisation of Algeria, the army forced the Algerian women to remove their headscarves in order to have their identity pictures taken. The army photographer at that time was a guy called Marc Garanger (who I met a few years ago and we became friends).

He published those pictures years later and they clearly show the great humiliation on the faces of these women who had never uncovered their hair in front of men before.

here's one of those pictures, but if you google the name of the photgrapher you will find more.

5421_03_garangerb_modifie_2-thumb-450x537.jpg
 
Aw, poor women. I can't imagine how it must feel like being forced to do that.
 
Mira said:
Speaking of ID cards, during the French colonisation of Algeria, the army forced the Algerian women to remove their headscarves in order to have their identity pictures taken. The army photographer at that time was a guy called Marc Garanger (who I met a few years ago and we became friends).

He published those pictures years later and they clearly show the great humiliation on the faces of these women who had never uncovered their hair in front of men before.

here's one of those pictures, but if you google the name of the photgrapher you will find more.

5421_03_garangerb_modifie_2-thumb-450x537.jpg
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That is so sad.

edit: I did a google search and a few questions arose. Who owns the rights to those photographs? Were they part of Granger's exhibition? (I didn't look through his webpage as there was a photo of a nude child on page 1, and did not wish to go further).
 
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StandUpChuck said:
That is so sad.

edit: I did a google search and a few questions arose. Who owns the rights to those photographs? Were they part of Granger's exhibition? (I didn't look through his webpage as there was a photo of a nude child on page 1, and did not wish to go further).
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Under French copyright law, Garanger owns his photographs.

He published a book and had several exhibitions. I met him when he had an exhibition in Holland in 2005. He recently returned to Algeria and found some of the people that he had photographed in the early 60-s.

I wasn't aware that he has a webpage. I'd be interested to see,could you please provide me with the link ?
 
Mira said:
Under French copyright law, Garanger owns his photographs.

He published a book and had several exhibitions. I met him when he had an exhibition in Holland in 2005. He recently returned to Algeria and found some of the people that he had photographed in the early 60-s.

I wasn't aware that he has a webpage. I'd be interested to see,could you please provide me with the link ?
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I don't want to link it because of the nude pic of the child (sorry). All I did was type Mark Granger into google, and it was one of the first few webpages. so you can find it that way.

My concern is this, Mira. He knew those women were humiliated having their photographs taken unveiled, yet he's making money off their images.

When I first read your post and saw that photo, but heart broke a little. I wanted to find out more as it was a compelling story. Then I felt voyeuristic. Seeing their humiliated faces and messy hair splashed all over the www made me angry. Not just at the French gov't but more at Mark Granger for publishing these photos for everyone in the world to see. I think we needed to see the pics to understand, but it was at the cost of their dignity. It bothers me.
 
StandUpChuck said:
I don't want to link it because of the nude pic of the child (sorry). All I did was type Mark Granger into google, and it was one of the first few webpages. so you can find it that way.

My concern is this, Mira. He knew those women were humiliated having their photographs taken unveiled, yet he's making money off their images.

When I first read your post and saw that photo, but heart broke a little. I wanted to find out more as it was a compelling story. Then I felt voyeuristic. Seeing their humiliated faces and messy hair splashed all over the www made me angry. Not just at the French gov't but more at Mark Granger for publishing these photos for everyone in the world to see. I think we needed to see the pics to understand, but it was at the cost of their dignity. It bothers me.
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Will you PM me the link please ? the first page on google is this
Marc Garanger: Algerian Women
the Holland exhibition which was in 2004, my mistake, I remembered it to be in 2005.

I had a long discussion with Marc about his pictures. He felt the need to show them in order to make a statement about the treatment of the colonising French toward the Algerians. He's a professional photographer, if you're worried about the fact that he published books and had exhibitions with those pictures, then you can say the same about any photographer, me being one of them. It is our JOB to witness, tell or denounce through our pictures. This is how we earn a living and with the living that we make we are able to continue to be witnesses. By the way, with very few exceptions, press photographers don't make a good living. Usually they recycle their earnings into travelling and taking more photographs.

One detail though, photographers rarely make any money out of books or exhibitions and knowing Garanger personally, he lives in a very modest wooden house in the countryside, he's VERY far from being even slightly rich.

edit: I just found his website which is simply a commercial site. Where do you see a naked child ?

http://www.marcgaranger.com/client/page0.php
 
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Mira, I come from a family of artists and was once a journalist, so I understand the duty to one's craft. It's my opinion that although he may have legally owned the rights to those photographs, he had a moral obligation to those women to only use them for the purpose for which they were intended - id cards. Anything other is exploitation.

Having said that, there's no doubt I was moved by the images. The man has incredible talent, and nothing tells the story like those images.

Cannot PM the link due to the image contained therein. Google search Mark Granger. Result #3.
 
StandUpChuck said:
Mira, I come from a family of artists and was once a journalist, so I understand the duty to one's craft. It's my opinion that although he may have legally owned the rights to those photographs, he had a moral obligation to those women to only use them for the purpose for which they were intended - id cards. Anything other is exploitation.

Having said that, there's no doubt I was moved by the images. The man has incredible talent, and nothing tells the story like those images.

Cannot PM the link due to the image contained therein. Google search Mark Granger. Result #3.
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I did google, result #3 and I found his official website. No naked kid there :confused: PM is private, I don't think you will be breaking any rules if you posted the link.

Anyhow, I know what you're saying and his series of photographs of the Algerian women was very contoversial and angered many people.

It's a subject that we often discuss among professionals of the press. What's the limit between witnessing and exposing people in humiliating situations ?

I thought about Marc's pictures when I first saw them. When we look at the pictures with our Western eyes, all we see is the anger of the women. Not a single western man or woman will be seeing them with the attitude of a voyeur. He felt the need to make a statement with his work, his aim was not to show pin-ups of Algerian women or to make big bucks.

But again, I understand what you're saying. This is a subject of a discussion on its own.

edit: this really intreagued me, so I picked up my phone and called the old Marc. I told him about this discussion and asked him if he had taken photographs of nude kids. His answer was "huh"? :confused:
 
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StandUpChuck said:
That is so sad.

edit: I did a google search and a few questions arose. Who owns the rights to those photographs? Were they part of Granger's exhibition? (I didn't look through his webpage as there was a photo of a nude child on page 1, and did not wish to go further).
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Were they humiliated because people could see their hair, just because they're heinous?
 
Scarecrow Akhbar said:
You mean with the full body suit that can't show if the body hidden has taken a shower in the last year?
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How are you really going to make that assessment? And I mean, what about one piece swimsuits? Those cover a large area too. In the end, this wasn't really done for sanitation reasons, but rather to target a specific people. If someone wants to wear a swimsuit with a hood, I don't see why that's anyone's business. The swimsuit won't have sanitation hazards and then you're just left at the level of people "bathing" before hand or whatever else you're worried about. But that's bound to happen on some level regardless of type of swimsuit being worn. So it doesn't seem like this was done for any other reason other than to target a specific group that the French have a known problem with.
 
It seems some people encourage there use
burqini470.jpg

In a lycra revolution, a cover-all swimming costume is bringing Muslim women on to Australian beaches as lifeguards, unzipping racial tensions which divided parts of Sydney little over a year ago.

The two-piece "burqini", popular in the Middle East, is proving key to a reshaping surf lifesaving (snip) "We are also encouraged in Australia to cover up not due to modesty but for sun protection, so this is not just a modesty aspect swimming suit, it is also a protection against the sun, surf and sand,"
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The Sydney Morning Herald: national, world, business, entertainment, sport and technology news from Australia's leading newspaper.
looks like swimsuits of the 1900s I wouldn't wear one, but I do swim in a tea-shirt if its really sunny:3oops:
 
Ikari said:
What if she just wanted to wear it? It's not oppression then. Maybe someone wants to. I mean ****, we give tickets out for people who run around outside naked in public. Is that oppression? I think at some point it's ok to demand cloths. And if someone wants to wear more than the minimum required, then so be it. It's stupid to make these laws, and these laws are nothing more than xenophobic attacks against a specific group that some folk in France (not the most accepting of folk) don't like.
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when you immigrate to a country you accept the customs of this country.

In France, men are equal to women and people are free. Therefore, bans on burqas and burkini (which symbolize oppression of women and submission to traditions) are justified.

There is another custom that says that people can't walk naked in the street, or that you can't swim naked in public swiming pools. Same principle.
 
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