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Criminal investigation into CIA treatment of detainees expected [edited]

Realist1

Realist1

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This is a bad mistake on B.O.'s part... You don't "attack" the People that Defend America. :roll:


Criminal investigation into CIA treatment of detainees expected - Los Angeles Times

They're turning their back on our Defenders...:( And seem more worried over the Trash that Master-Minded the 9-11 attacks against us.

The Justice Department authorized waterboarding in an August 2002 memo that contained a caveat that could prove crucial to any criminal investigation. Although it allowed the approved methods to be "used more than once," the memo stipulated that "repetition will not be substantial because the techniques generally lose their effectiveness after several repetitions."

One passage of the CIA report declassified this year said that the method had been used "at least 83 times during August 2002" on Abu Zubaydah, the first senior Al Qaeda figure captured by the agency. Waterboarding was then employed "183 times during March 2003" on Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, the self-proclaimed mastermind of the Sept. 11 attacks.
 
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Realist1 said:
This is a bad mistake on B.O.'s part... You don't "attack" the People that Defend America. :roll:


Criminal investigation into CIA treatment of detainees expected - Los Angeles Times

They're turning their back on our Defenders...:(
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It's a dumb move, but not because you don't "attack" the CIA. They are just as capable of breaking the law as the FBI, just as likely to break the law as New Jersey mayors, and just as deserving of punishment for breaking the law as average citizens.

It's a dumb move because it reeks of political opportunism, payback, and the criminalizing of policy. It's a dumb move because there is a significant question whether a crime was even committed. It's a dumb move because it shows Dear Leader singling out the CIA for persecution while keeping (and, in some cases, extending) the very things for which he is persecuting the CIA (rendition, indefinite detention, secret prisons, enhanced interrogation, et cetera).

When Dear Leader closes Bagram Air Base and closes the loopholes in his own executive orders on terrorist interrogations, then this move to persecute the CIA would begin to appear semi-above board. As he is not likely to do either, this is just politics, Chicago-style.

I have said it before and I will say it again: If Dear Leader truly wants to have a public airing on this matter, the smart thing to do would be to grant preemptive pardons to anyone even remotely connected to Guantanamo and terrorist interrogations, and remove the threat of criminal prosecution. Sending people to prison for doing what they understood to be their job, and operating under pretext of legality, is not how justice should be administered.
 
Realist1 said:
This is a bad mistake on B.O.'s part... You don't "attack" the People that Defend America. :roll:


Criminal investigation into CIA treatment of detainees expected - Los Angeles Times

They're turning their back on our Defenders...:( And seem more worried over the Trash that Master-Minded the 9-11 attacks against us.

The Justice Department authorized waterboarding in an August 2002 memo that contained a caveat that could prove crucial to any criminal investigation. Although it allowed the approved methods to be "used more than once," the memo stipulated that "repetition will not be substantial because the techniques generally lose their effectiveness after several repetitions."

One passage of the CIA report declassified this year said that the method had been used "at least 83 times during August 2002" on Abu Zubaydah, the first senior Al Qaeda figure captured by the agency. Waterboarding was then employed "183 times during March 2003" on Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, the self-proclaimed mastermind of the Sept. 11 attacks.
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First, please read the Breaking News guidelines.

Second, while I disagree with Celticlord on the reasons(as always), I do agree that any criminal investigation is a bad idea in this case. Find out what happened, how it happened, and change the rules for the future, but do not prosecute people who where to the best of their knowledge following the rules.
 
Redress said:
Find out what happened, how it happened, and change the rules for the future, but do not prosecute people who where to the best of their knowledge following the rules.
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Exactly. Why punish anybody for simply performing within the scope of their defined roles? :confused:
 
hiswoman said:
Exactly. Why punish anybody for simply performing within the scope of their defined roles? :confused:
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There may be people who do deserve prosecution discovered in an investigation into the torture/EIT. One possibility(and I stress this is simply a possibility and nothing more) would be if the superiors of those convicted at Abu Graib actually did order what was done there, they would clearly deserve prosecution, but I think prosecutions just for torture/EIT would be bad for the country. It's kinda like a possible Nixon prosecution would have been: good in the name of absolute justice, but bad for the health of the country.
 
Redress said:
There may be people who do deserve prosecution discovered in an investigation into the torture/EIT. One possibility(and I stress this is simply a possibility and nothing more) would be if the superiors of those convicted at Abu Graib actually did order what was done there, they would clearly deserve prosecution, but I think prosecutions just for torture/EIT would be bad for the country. It's kinda like a possible Nixon prosecution would have been: good in the name of absolute justice, but bad for the health of the country.
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Yes, I agree with this. It appears that Obama isn't thinking about what's best for the country as a whole in dealing with this situation. A leader must always place the welfare of the people before his/her own political interests. Obama needs to make peace with the fact that he's not going to be able to please everybody with his decisions.
 
This is a purely political move designed to appeal to Obama's base who are angry as hell that Bush and Cheney have remained untouched and unscathed in regard to the Iraq War, torture, or any other policy, for that matter. Toss them a little 'prosecution bone' to keep them occupied and hope they'll stay on board as Obama triangulates in Iraq, Afghanistan, and GITMO.

..
 
Grateful Heart said:
This is a purely political move designed to appeal to Obama's base who are angry as hell that Bush and Cheney have remained untouched and unscathed in regard to the Iraq War, torture, or any other policy, for that matter. Toss them a little 'prosecution bone' to keep them occupied and hope they'll stay on board as Obama triangulates in Iraq, Afghanistan, and GITMO.

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Amazing thing is, as politics, the timing sucks.

Every "criminal probe" into Gitmo has a short road back to Nancy Pelosi. If Dear Leader wants his health care bill through the Congress any time soon, does he really want to tie her up in depositions?

That's the worst sin of all in this. It's a political prosecution, which is bad enough, but as a political prosecution it is burns up a lot of political capital with very little potential upside. Dear Leader does not get a huge popularity boost in the polls from this; he does not end the divisive rhetoric in and out of Congress; he does not gain any leverage over the Republicans.

He's allowing Holder to throw a spanner into the Congressional gears when they're already starting to seize up.
 
celticlord said:
Every "criminal probe" into Gitmo has a short road back to Nancy Pelosi. If Dear Leader wants his health care bill through the Congress any time soon, does he really want to tie her up in depositions?
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I've only briefly looked at the article... but it seems the proposed investigation has been structured so as to take the widest possible detour AROUND Congress. They are to investigate cases in which CIA personnel exceeded authorized techniques in regard to interrogation. Therefore what Pelosi or Bush or Cheney knew or didn't know about authorized techniques is totally irrelevant.

In the end, Obama would be able to say that he prosecuted illegal torture, while at the same time avoiding the obvious pitfalls associated with going after the previous administration.

The CIA has always been a useful whipping boy.

Pure political calculation. As far as the timing... I don't see what advantage he'd get by delay.

Of course the whole thing would do nothing in the end but weaken our intelligence services. A trade-off liberal Democrats have demonstrated they're willing to make time and again.

..
 
Did you read this part?


President Obama has repeatedly expressed reluctance to launch a criminal investigation of the interrogation program, but has left room for the prosecution of individuals who may have broken the law.
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The AG does not answer to the president in what investigations he will pursue. The only real power over the AG the president has is to appoint him or fire him. That's why so many got mad with the attorneys general under Bush. Properly the president has no right to tell him to how to run the justice dept. and the justice dept. is under no obligation to protect the president's image or agenda. What you are seeing here is the pursuit of justice without regard to what the president wants or how it may conflict with what the president wants to do. That is the way it should be. Conservatives ought to be glad about this news it shows that should evidence fall in his lap of presidential corruption Holder will not use his office to shield the president.
 
angrycarpenter said:
What you are seeing here is the pursuit of justice without regard to what the president wants or how it may conflict with what the president wants to do.
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Say what?

You provide a quote from the article indicating Obama would be amenable to prosecuting individual lawbreakers, then you suggest that Holder is breaking from the president by his proposed prosecution of individual lawbreakers.

:confused:
 
Grateful Heart said:
I've only briefly looked at the article... but it seems the proposed investigation has been structured so as to take the widest possible detour AROUND Congress. They are to investigate cases in which CIA personnel exceeded authorized techniques in regard to interrogation. Therefore what Pelosi or Bush or Cheney knew or didn't know about authorized techniques is totally irrelevant.

In the end, Obama would be able to say that he prosecuted illegal torture, while at the same time avoiding the obvious pitfalls associated with going after the previous administration.

The CIA has always been a useful whipping boy.

Pure political calculation. As far as the timing... I don't see what advantage he'd get by delay.

Of course the whole thing would do nothing in the end but weaken our intelligence services. A trade-off liberal Democrats have demonstrated they're willing to make time and again.

..
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Agreed. After watching and listening to the Dems continue to slam the Intelligence Services for doing their jobs,,,they're walking onto thin ice.
 
PBO has to purge CIA. No doubt that there are elements CIA that he feels are a threat to his plans, so he must purge the agency and fill it with operators who he feels are more friendly to the Libbo agenda.
 
hiswoman said:
Exactly. Why punish anybody for simply performing within the scope of their defined roles? :confused:
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True. What kind of thinking is being used to "prosecute" the people that questioned,,,this piece of flotsam?

Waterboarding was then employed "183 times during March 2003" on Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, the self-proclaimed mastermind of the Sept. 11 attacks.

"It" brags about killing thousands of Americans, and the Lib/Dems are worried about him?:roll:
 
apdst said:
PBO has to purge CIA. No doubt that there are elements CIA that he feels are a threat to his plans, so he must purge the agency and fill it with operators who he feels are more friendly to the Libbo agenda.
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Do you wear your tin foil hat all the time, or just most of the time?
 
Redress said:
Do you wear your tin foil hat all the time, or just most of the time?
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Prove me wrong. No doubt there are folks in CIA that could really embarress the administration. We saw that when they made Pelosi look like a blithering idiot. They have to be discredited, at least.
 
hiswoman said:
Exactly. Why punish anybody for simply performing within the scope of their defined roles? :confused:
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This isn't a very sound line of reasoning.

There're many valid reasons not to do this and some to do it. However, the 'just following orders' rationale is not among either group.
 
apdst said:
Prove me wrong. No doubt there are folks in CIA that could really embarress the administration. We saw that when they made Pelosi look like a blithering idiot. They have to be discredited, at least.
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You are the one making the claim.

By the way, the whole Pelosi/CIA thing ended up a draw, since it turned out that the CIA's notes on meetings where definitely not always accurate. See here for details: Pelosi’s Tortured Denials | FactCheck.org
 
Simon W. Moon said:
This isn't a very sound line of reasoning.

There're many valid reasons not to do this and some to do it. However, the 'just following orders' rationale is not among either group.
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"Just folliwng orders", isn't a defense, true, but as hiswoman pointed out it isn't about following, "orders", it's about following the, "rules", as they knew them.

CIA has been twisting arms since day one and no one has ever gone to jail over it. There was no reason for these agents to think they were conducting themselves in a manner that was contrary to standing SOP and policy of the United States government for over 40 years. You can slap them on the wrist and tell them that's not how we do things anymore, but it's just flat out wrong to prosecute them.
 
Simon W. Moon said:
There's no sign of concern for this fella.
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The whole premise of this Story is the Criminal Proscecution of the C.I.A.,,, for the Interrogations of trash like this...He happens to one of the scum that's Highlighted.:roll:

Maybe the Libs are worried over some other sleaze-ball then...:lol:
 
This is not political...this is about our restoring country's integrity. Our country's ability to look beyond politics and DO THE RIGHT THING. These investigations are needed to heal the country...It is not about covering up people's lies and deceit...it is not about politicians using good troops to carry out evil unlawful acts and then cowar behind those very troops who were following the orders of those very politicians who are doing the cowaring.

This process might just hurt alittle but in the end we will all be better off for it.
 
goldendog said:
This is not political...this is about our restoring country's integrity. Our country's ability to look beyond politics and DO THE RIGHT THING. These investigations are needed to heal the country...It is not about covering up people's lies and deceit...it is not about politicians using good troops to carry out evil unlawful acts and then cowar behind those very troops who were following the orders of those very politicians who are doing the cowaring.

This process might just hurt alittle but in the end we will all be better off for it.
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I'm more interested in maintaining our Country's Safety, and Defending us all, from Suicidal Religious Freaks. As far as I'm concerned, we're at War. With some of the worst savages still crawling around on the face of this Earth.

The C.I.A. has my permission to do whatever is necessary to protect America. :)
 
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Realist1 said:
I'm more interested in maintaining our Country's Safety, and Defending us all, from Suicidal Religious Freaks. As far as I'm concerned, we're at War. With some of the worst savages still crawling around on the face of this Earth.

The C.I.A. has my permission to do whatever is necessary to protect America. :)
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To do whatever is necessary, even if that leads to false information that could misdirect, or even kill thousands? Torture is not just immoral, or illegal, but also the absolute worst tactic to use when trying to gather information.

I wish some would someday wake up and smell the coffee of reality, but the most precise intelligence we have gotten to date was gathered through interrogations by FBI professional interogators who did not need to use harsh treatments.

I think it would be of interest for people to know that the most celebrated interrogator in Word War II was a German named [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanns_Scharff"]Hanns Scharff [/ame]who:

..was a German Luftwaffe interrogator during the Second World War. He has been called the "Master Interrogator" of the Luftwaffe and possibly all of Nazi Germany; he has also been praised for his contribution in shaping U.S. interrogation techniques after the war. Merely an Obergefreiter (the equivalent of a senior lance corporal), he was charged with interrogating every German-captured American fighter pilot during the war after his becoming an interrogation officer in 1943. He is highly praised for the success of his techniques, especially considering he never used physical means to obtain the required information. No evidence exists he even raised his voice in the presence of a prisoner of war (POW). Scharff’s interrogation techniques were so effective that he was often called upon to assist other German interrogators in their questioning of bomber pilots and aircrews, including those crews and fighter pilots from countries other than the United States. Additionally, Scharff was charged with questioning V.I.P.s (Very Important Prisoners) that funneled through the interrogation center, namely senior officers and world-famous fighter aces.

After the end of WWII, Scharff was invited by the United States Air Force to give lectures on his interrogation techniques and first-hand experiences. The U.S. military later incorporated Scharff’s methods into its curriculum at its interrogation schools. Scharff's methods are still taught in US Army interrogation schools.
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On the other hand, we did send Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi to Egypt where the result was the now knowingly false Iraq-al-Qaeda connections. That worked out real well didn't it?
Powell aide says torture helped build Iraq war case
Al-Libi's claim that Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein's government had trained al Qaeda operatives in producing chemical and biological weapons appeared in the October 2002 speech then-President Bush gave when pushing Congress to authorize military action against Iraq. It also was part of Powell's February 2003 presentation to the United Nations on the case for war
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