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Gov't insurance would allow coverage for abortion

Laila said:
I am pro choice because i believe women should have the right to decide whether to carry their pregnancies full term or not and we have no say in it.
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So then you value that choice more so than the life itself. That's the end of that. I understand the sentiment, but you have to order things here. You can be appalled by abortion, but you value the choice over the life itself. It's a difficult position to be in because you're going to say either that the life is more important and piss people off because they think you're going against their property rights (essentially). Or you can say you value the choice, in which case you trivialize the life of the child. It's not like we don't know where babies come from anymore. The problem is that it's not equal across the sexes because reproduction is fundamentally not equal across the sexes.

But in the end, if one values life as much as possible, they have to understand what it is and what trumps what. I think life is life, and while I personally can't change the abortion laws I will neither sugar coat the actions of the destruction of human life. People want to make definitions and call things this or that to dehumanize the child so they feel ok about destroying it (this is general, not directed towards you). We do it with enemies too, we call them terrorists or whatever so we can rob them of their humanity so we don't feel bad about killing them. But I think we need to face up to what we do. Whether it be sex which results in the creation of life, of the destruction of human life. It should be faced head on and not through cowardly acts of rhetoric and dehumanizing victims.
 
Laila said:
PRO CHOICE
God give me strength :doh
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Pro-abortion.
You can delude yourself otherwise, but that doesn't change the fact.
 
Sammyo said:
Umm... It means that's what i think. That's what an opinion is, doncha' know.
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I understand it's your opinion. I was merely informing you of its shortcomings - that's what happens in debate forums.

Absolutely. What do i care?
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I don't know. I just figured you would be reticent to engage in illogic.

It's just your opinion. When the laws are changed we'll deal with it then.
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Well, in a debate forum, we often discuss our opinions and the validity thereof - I'm contesting the validity of your's.

Besides, i have no problem with prayer in schools. People talk to themselves all the time. No biggie. I'll just instruct my kids to go over their math homework in their heads.
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I said mandatory prayer. Are you okay with that?

Ummm.. No. I'm just the guy who shares my opinion without regards to your approval.
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And this means what to me? I never implied you must seek my approval.

Oh, hyperbole. It didn't sound that way to me. My b.
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That's one way to misrepresent what I said.
 
Goobieman said:
Pro-abortion.
You can delude yourself otherwise, but that doesn't change the fact.
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If it makes you sleep better at night :roll:

This is semantics anyway
 
I'm pro-abortion and proud of it. I'm also pro-choice, because i don't want abortion forced on anyone. I don't want my views on abortion forced on anyone, so i think the woman should choose and not me.

Most pro-lifers aren't just pro-life, but they're anti-choice because they want to strip away the choice from the woman. Meh, men have always wanted to boss women around. You should read about how much men did this in times past!
 
Coronado said:
I find lots of government spending (probably most of it) repugnant as well, but this would shoot straight to the top of my list.

You want to kill your unborn child, fine. Use your own ****ing money for it. Don't come take money from me at gunpoint because you're too damned irresponsible to keep from getting pregnant.*

* Standard disclaimer for allowing for abortions to save the life and/or health of the mother, etc.
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That's cool. Can't argue with someone's moral rankings.
 
Sammyo said:
I'm pro-abortion and proud of it. I'm also pro-choice, because i don't want abortion forced on anyone. I don't want my views on abortion forced on anyone, so i think the woman should choose and not me.

Most pro-lifers aren't just pro-life, but they're anti-choice because they want to strip away the choice from the woman. Meh, men have always wanted to boss women around. You should read about how much men did this in times past!
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That, BTW, is also why most "pro-choice" people are not "pro-choice". There's a choice out there that you're against.

The man domination thing is overplayed and rather stupid at this point, just to let you know. It's not about man dominating women, it's about the defense of innocent life.
 
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Sammyo said:
I'm pro-abortion and proud of it. I'm also pro-choice, because i don't want abortion forced on anyone. I don't want my views on abortion forced on anyone, so i think the woman should choose and not me.
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I wouldn't say i am Pro Abortion. Just pro choice, not that it makes any difference for me or any other women.

My MPs and Parliament have spoken on this issue and it will never be taken away. My MPs are majority men as well and have been everytime they debated and legalized it and many of them were religious in 1967 when it passed so i would not say it is a man wanting to control women thing.
 
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Ethereal said:
I understand it's your opinion. I was merely informing you of its shortcomings - that's what happens in debate forums.
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You didn't inform me of any shortcomings. Look again.


Ethereal said:
I don't know. I just figured you would be reticent to engage in illogic.
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Why make assumptions at all? My view is logical, but i have no need to explain it to you and i certainly don't have the desire.


Ethereal said:
Well, in a debate forum, we often discuss our opinions and the validity thereof - I'm contesting the validity of your's.
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With what? The sound of your gasping at my opinion?


Ethereal said:
I said mandatory prayer. Are you okay with that?
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I'm fine with it being your opinion and i think you should try your best to make it into law. That's what this country is about.


Ethereal said:
And this means what to me? I never implied you must seek my approval.
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Well, your approval is the furthest thing from my mind, actually. You read what i say or not, and respond how you please. That's what internet forums are all about.


Ethereal said:
That's one way to misrepresent what I said.
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ROAR!!! :2rofll::2rofll::2rofll::2rofll:

You're the one who was using that as your defense!!!! You were saying, you can't take me seriously, because i was exaggerating. You even gave me another example that was even more hyperbolic so that i wouldn't misunderstand!! LOL!!!!! Don't stop now, Ethereal, you're seriously cracking me up!!!
 
Laila said:
I wouldn't say i am Pro Abortion. Just pro choice, not that it makes any difference for me or any other women.
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Do you support my right to open carry fully automatic weapons?

In the end, rhetoric aside. I don't think that abortion in general should be tax payer funded. I can buy into rape and mother's life scenario, but not in general and there should be something there so that I don't have to pay for elective abortion.
 
Ikari said:
That, BTW, is also why most "pro-choice" people are not "pro-choice". There's a choice out there that you're against.
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What choice am i against, again?


Ikari said:
The man domination thing is overplayed and rather stupid at this point, just to let you know. It's not about man dominating women, it's about the defense of innocent life.
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It's people of mixed gender telling a WOMAN what to do with her body. It's never an issue of telling a man what to do with his body, and that's the nut.
 
Ikari said:
Do you support my right to open carry fully automatic weapons?

In the end, rhetoric aside. I don't think that abortion in general should be tax payer funded. I can buy into rape and mother's life scenario, but not in general and there should be something there so that I don't have to pay for elective abortion.
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I don't care what you do in your country.

I don't have a say either way. I support UHC and that means taking everything that goes with it whether i like it or not
 
Goobieman said:
Yes, apparently that's why you do it.
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Your right.
I abort and then fall asleep happily the same day. How did you know my favourite past time? :doh
 
Laila said:
Your right.
I abort and then fall asleep happily the same day. How did you know my favourite past time? :doh
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Yeah, i go and watch abortions for fun. I fall asleep to videos of them. It's awesome.
 
Reverend_Hellh0und said:
So in other words, we must pay for you to kill your child of inconvience.... I find this unnacceptable. Abortion is legal. I get it, however, expecting me to pay for it is abhorrent.
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Sorry, Rev, ol man, this has already been debunked in another thread with an article from factcheck.org.

Those facts are pesky stubborn things and that factcheck.org does a great job applying them to the daily partisan spin.

Check it out ---> DEBUNKED BY FACTS
 
Sammyo said:
Yeah, i go and watch abortions for fun. I fall asleep to videos of them. It's awesome.
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Really?!
I knew i wasn't the only one that did that for enjoyment
Infact i give women piggy backs all the way to the Abortion clinic
 
Ethereal said:
:2wave:

By the way, where's YOUR source?
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Medscape Today -2008
For the sixth consecutive year, the number of Americans living without health insurance has risen, according to new U.S. Census Bureau data. Approximately 2.2 million people were added to the uninsurance rolls in 2006 — the largest one-year increase in the number of uninsured Americans since 2002.

Annual Census Bureau estimates released in August show 47 million people, or 15.8 percent of the U.S. population, were without health insurance during 2006 — a 4.9 percent increase. In 2005, census figures showed that 44.8 million people, or about 15.3 percent of the population, lacked health insurance coverage.
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NCHC
Nearly 46 million Americans, or 18 percent of the population under the age of 65, were without health insurance in 2007, the latest government data available
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Income, Poverty, and Health Insurance Coverage in the United States: 2007
U.S. Census Bureau. Issued August 2008 - 45 million

Bloomberg - May 2008 -
47 million Americans without health-care coverage include 5 million uninsurables
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Now let's consider the following from NCHC:

  • The number of uninsured rose 2.2 million between 2005 and 2006 and has increased by almost 8 million people since 2000.
  • The increase in the number of uninsured in 2006 was focused among working age adults. The percentage of working adults (18 to 64) who had no health coverage climbed from 19.7 percent in 2005 to 20.2 percent in 2006.1 Nearly 1.3 million full-time workers lost their health insurance in 2006
  • Nearly 90 million people – about one-third of the population below the age of 65 spent a portion of either 2006 or 2007 without health coverage between 2000 and 2006
  • The percentage of people (workers and dependents) with employment-based health insurance has dropped from 70 percent in 1987 to 62 percent in 2007. This is the lowest level of employment-based insurance coverage in more than a decade
  • The number of uninsured children in 2007 was 8.1 million – or 10.7 percent of all children in the U.S
And now...
  • Nearly 40 percent of the uninsured population reside in households that earn $50,000 or more.1 A growing number of middle-income families cannot afford health insurance payments even when coverage is offered by their employers.

Which leads us to the UNDER insured:

  • A study found that 29 percent of people who had health insurance were “underinsured” with coverage so meager they often postponed medical care because of costs.15 Nearly 50 percent overall, and 43 percent of people with health coverage, said they were “somewhat” to “completely” unprepared to cope with a costly medical emergency over the coming year - Consumer Reports. Are You Really Covered? September 2007
(NCHC)

CNN Money -
By one estimate, 25 million Americans can't afford to cover the gap between what their insurance covers and their medical bills demand.
US News and World Reports - 2008 25 Million Americans Are 'Underinsured'

CommonWealth Fund -
From 2003 to 2007, the number of adults who were insured all year but were underinsured increased by 60 percent. Based on those who incur high out-of-pocket costs relative to their income not counting premiums despite having coverage all year, an estimated 25 million adults under age 65 were underinsured in 2007.
Lastly, let us give a rough estimate now, with 14,000 losing their coverage each day: Obama claims 14,000 lose health insurance every day - Politifact

Now give or take the usage of provisions subsidizing 65 percent of COBRA (Federal Stimulus at work!) the number as acknowledged needs to be recalculated. But, estimated 3.2 million jobs lost, and you can also figure 3.2 million who lost coverage. How many retained COBRA? How many could afford COBRA?

FYI, I know you would prefer to use the right wing think tanks uninsured number, since they see it as lower. Ok, I know stuff like morality, humanity, empathy mean little to you, so I will make this argument instead. We still pay each and every time an uninsured or under insured person seeks medical treatment at an ER, which is unquestionably the most expensive. So we pay for it anyways, so may a more affordable health care system is in order to cover those that are currently not covered. I suppose you did notice where it said "not a citizen" in your fact sheet? Doesn't say illegal, just not a "citizen" which can mean a whole hell of a lot.

The key here is to add the uninsured (50 million) + the under-insured (25 million). I could list a whole other page just dealing with the costs alone in the current system, but the point is under insured are essentially one thing; while they may have coverage, the costs itself is too prohibitive for them to actually be considered under coverage. Remember, my whole point is an indictment against the whole system, so therefore take as a whole both numbers need to be included.
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Laila said:
Really?!
I knew i wasn't the only one that did that for enjoyment
Infact i give women piggy backs all the way to the Abortion clinic
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Me too, but i provide them crack cocaine on the way.
 
Sammyo said:
Most pro-lifers aren't just pro-life, but they're anti-choice because they want to strip away the choice from the woman.
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Seriously, you folks never tire of this accusation, do you?

Women generally have a choice about not getting pregnant, and I don't know of any pro-life people who advocate for rape.
 
Sammyo said:
What choice am i against, again?
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There's bound to be something.

You ok with all drugs being legal, even prescription freely available and allowing the pharmaceutical companies to make designer drugs and market them as they see fit?

You ok with removal of the ban on fully automatics, removing concealed weapon permits because you don't need a permit to carry concealed?

The removal of the marriage license to allow marriage to be defined and practiced by the churches?

I mean, I'm not going to list all choice, but I don't see it very likely that someone is for all choice.
 
Laila said:
I don't care what you do in your country.

I don't have a say either way. I support UHC and that means taking everything that goes with it whether i like it or not
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Well the gun question in general. You support your countrymen's right to open carry fully automatic weapons?
 
Coronado said:
Seriously, you folks never tire of this accusation, do you?

Women generally have a choice about not getting pregnant, and I don't know of any pro-life people who advocate for rape.
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Well, it's true. Pro-lifers want to take away the woman's choice in abortion. Don't they?

On the issue of abortion, don't most pro-lifers want the woman not to have a choice of an abortion? Of course they do. Don't act like most pro-lifers are out there just expressing an opinion. They, by in large, want to take away the choice of abortion. Right?
 
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