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High Court draws line between discipline and physical abuse

Laila

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Parents can slap and even kick their children when chastising them, one of the country's top judges has said.

The remarks, which will add to the already fierce debate about whether parents should be able to physically discipline their children, came at London's Appeal Court.

It is the first time that the courts have drawn a line at which the 'reasonable' point of punishing children becomes physical abuse.

Ruling in a case in which a local authority had wanted to take three children into care where there had been allegation of abuse, Lady Justice Hallett said: 'Reasonable physical chastisement of children by parents is not yet unlawful in this country.'

She went on: 'Slaps and even kicks vary enormously in their seriousness.
'A kick sounds particularly unpleasant, yet many a parent may have nudged their child's nappied bottom with their foot in gentle play, without committing an assault.

'Many a parent will have slapped a child on the hand to make the point that running out into a busy road is a dangerous thing to do.'
But last night those who want smacking to be made illegal said the judge's comments underlined exactly why a new law was needed.

Physically punishing a child is NOT against the law: High Court draws line between discipline and physical abuse | Mail Online

Well its good discipling children is not made against the law despite the ludicrous campaign by NSPCC
 
Score one for common sense over political correctness.
 
Score one for common sense over political correctness.

I'll drink to that! :drink

The Government complains children have no discipline or respect and then seeks to restrain a parent from establishing control over children
 
I am actually surprised that is is still legal to discipline your child in the UK of all places. I thought that such a pc country by now would have banned corporal punishment and made grounding a child to his room a form of torture.
 
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I am actually surprised that is is still legal to discipline your child in the UK of all places. I thought that such a pc country by now would have banned corporal punishment and made grounding to his room a form of torture.

The high court's common sense prevailed.

There was a attempt (by the nuts) to make smacking or raising voice etc. illegal and child abuse in UK
 
The high court's common sense prevailed.

There was a attempt (by the nuts) to make smacking or raising voice etc. illegal and child abuse in UK

Yeah that sounds about right.
 
Using physical behavior to discipline your child indicates a weakness in the parent, IMO. Plain and simple.
 
Using physical behavior to discipline your child indicates a weakness in the parent, IMO. Plain and simple.

Your opinion.
You discipline your children how you please.
Just ensure no one prevents me from disciplining mine if need be
 
Your opinion.
You discipline your children how you please.
Just ensure no one prevents me from disciplining mine if need be

Clearly, I said "in my opinion," Laila. I know why you're saying this. You think its appropriate to physically assault your niece. That tells me you're weak. And, yes, of course it's JMO. :roll: Your defensiveness is humorous and somewhat pathetic, IMO.
 
I know

Absolutely i support physical discipline when called for.
I think my sister in law is pathetic and a absolute fool to not discipline her children so much so that it falls on me to establish the rules
 
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I know :roll:

Absolutely i support physical discipline when called for.
I think my sister in law is pathetic and a absolute fool to not discipline her children

I'm sorry I was harsh on you, Laila. :3oops:

I think your sister in law is pathetic as well. I believe there's a way to discipline children without having to hit them. I remember thinking she was very lazy or wimpy about disciplining her children. Am I correct?

What's interesting, my older siser and her husband have spanked their son like it's going out of style. It does not prevent him from misbehaving. To me, their problem is that they refuse to have him suffer any consequences other than the temporary pain of a spanking. Their system is not working.
 
Using physical behavior to discipline your child indicates a weakness in the parent, IMO. Plain and simple.

I agree that there are plenty of ways a parent can discipline a child without physical force but I also see the need for physical contact in some situations and would not want the government to remove that option. I believe by doing so we ultimately lose the ability to control our children.
 
I'm sorry I was harsh on you, Laila. :3oops:

I think your sister in law is pathetic as well. I believe there's a way to discipline children without having to hit them. I remember thinking she was very lazy or wimpy about disciplining her children. Am I correct?

What's interesting, my older siser and her husband have spanked their son like it's going out of style. It does not prevent him from misbehaving. To me, their problem is that they refuse to have him suffer any consequences other than the temporary pain of a spanking. Their system is not working.

No problemo =)

Yes, she believes smacking is child abuse and so is raising the voice (ridiculous)

A child needs structure and discipline. It needs boundaries and if she is not going to provide it for her child, i will provide it for my nieces.

I have spanked my niece and have done since whenever they do something horrible that i do not accept and it works wonders for me.
I think the main issue with this society is that the discipline has been sucked out because the Government sees fit to get involved in a area where it needs to mind its own business.

I'd rather my child fears me than have a child that will beat me or disrespect me (both things i have seen)
I recall when i was at a sleepover with one of my friends houses when i was 15, Jenny was so horrific to her Mother it was unbelieveable. Stole money, slapped her and part of the reason i think she did that was because she did not fear her parent. My mom would have killed me if raised a hand to her and rightly so, i will not (even to this day) dare raise my voice to my Mom
 
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It's curious that, if corporal punishment is is okay, its proponents feel the need to refer to it euphemistically. "Physical force", "physical contact" (I like that one, lol), "physical discipline". Even "spanking", really, is a euphemism, because when we use it in reference to adults it refers only to a playful activity, generally with sexual overtones.
Think: if somebody actually walked up and began striking you- an adult- in earnest, on the butt, with the intent of inflicting pain and discomfort on you, you would not call that a "spanking". It would be assault.

What we're actually talking about here is striking children.
The intensity of the blows is not really the point. It's the principle of the matter.
The location on their body where the blows are landed is also rather beside the point, in my opinion, although it does seem a bit self-defeating to strike them deliberately on the ass, while at other times instructing them that this is a "private part" and that they should tell a grown-up if anyone attempts to touch it.

I just feel there's a reason why adults are protected by law from being physically struck. By anyone, under any circumstances except in self-defense. Even a murderer on death row is ostensibly protected from physical blows to his body (on any part of his body, of any intensity).
It seems a bit schizophrenic that the majority of adults in our society believe it's okay to strike children, as long as we don't do it hard enough to permanently damage them or cause severe injury.

But that's solely my opinion.
 
No problemo =)

Yes, she believes smacking is child abuse and so is raising the voice (ridiculous)

A child needs structure and discipline. It needs boundaries and if she is not going to provide it for her child, i will provide it for my nieces.

I have spanked my niece and have done since whenever they do something horrible that i do not accept and it works wonders for me.
I think the main issue with this society is that the discipline has been sucked out because the Government sees fit to get involved in a area where it needs to mind its own business.

I'd rather my child fears me than have a child that will beat me or disrespect me (both things i have seen)
I recall when i was at a sleepover with one of my friends houses when i was 15, Jenny was so horrific to her Mother it was unbelieveable. Stole money, slapped her and part of the reason i think she did that was because she did not fear her parent. My mom would have killed me if raised a hand to her and rightly so, i will not (even to this day) dare raise my voice to my Mom

Reminds me of a woman I was behind in line at walmart. Her child had grabbed a sweet from the isle and refused to listen to his mother and put it back. The womans only method of enforcing the issue was to reapeat over and over "put it back". The child refused to listen and held his candy. Ill be honest, after hearing the mother say "put it back" about 15-20 times I felt a sudden urge to spank the mother. ;)

I just wonder what this child will be like when they are a little older. I mean you can give verbal commands or punishment all day long and if the child still refuses you need something to back it up with. If the child knows you can go no further why would they listen?
 
It's curious that, if corporal punishment is is okay, its proponents feel the need to refer to it euphemistically. "Physical force", "physical contact" (I like that one, lol), "physical discipline". Even "spanking", really, is a euphemism, because when we use it in reference to adults it refers only to a playful activity, generally with sexual overtones.
Think: if somebody actually walked up and began striking you- an adult- in earnest, on the butt, with the intent of inflicting pain and discomfort on you, you would not call that a "spanking". It would be assault.

What we're actually talking about here is striking children.
The intensity of the blows is not really the point. It's the principle of the matter.
The location on their body where the blows are landed is also rather beside the point, in my opinion, although it does seem a bit self-defeating to strike them deliberately on the ass, while at other times instructing them that this is a "private part" and that they should tell a grown-up if anyone attempts to touch it.

I just feel there's a reason why adults are protected by law from being physically struck. By anyone, under any circumstances except in self-defense. Even a murderer on death row is ostensibly protected from physical blows to his body (on any part of his body, of any intensity).
It seems a bit schizophrenic that the majority of adults in our society believe it's okay to strike children, as long as we don't do it hard enough to permanently damage them or cause severe injury.

But that's solely my opinion.

Well I view it differently. I also will apply it to adults. I have been arrested a few times due to this but I still feel I am in the right. If some adult is being a dick to me or my family for no reason what so ever they should expect to swallow my fist. I will take a couple days in jail if it shows these people that as far as Im concerned the law wont protect them being a prick.
 
Reminds me of a woman I was behind in line at walmart. Her child had grabbed a sweet from the isle and refused to listen to his mother and put it back. The womans only method of enforcing the issue was to reapeat over and over "put it back". The child refused to listen and held his candy. Ill be honest, after hearing the mother say "put it back" about 15-20 times I felt a sudden urge to spank the mother. ;)

I just wonder what this child will be like when they are a little older. I mean you can give verbal commands or punishment all day long and if the child still refuses you need something to back it up with. If the child knows you can go no further why would they listen?

Exactly.
I recall deliberately pushing the boundaries as a child and my Mom would re enforce them by a smack - I learned pretty fast.

I have seen some of the most horrible things.
You are not a parent unless you have control over your children imo.

I have seen 7 year olds swearing at the Mom - 'Bitch, **** off' when the Mom says no to something, toddles hitting Mom and shouting if a candy is not given.
A mother being resorted to "Please don't do that Ben please".
(Why are you saying please for you dumb lady, he came out of you! Establish some damn control for the love of God!)
Toddlers running riot on trains, buses pushing over old ladies carts and screaming so much so i am sometimes within <-> distance into smacking the children right across the face along with the Mom

When i am out with my youngest brothers (7 and 9) if they dare swear, scream, disrupt another passenger. I will hit them there and then.
I do not care, i will discipline in public if need be (But i have never resorted to such a thing seeing they have discipline and they know i am in charge when i go out)
 
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No problemo =)

Yes, she believes smacking is child abuse and so is raising the voice (ridiculous)

A child needs structure and discipline. It needs boundaries and if she is not going to provide it for her child, i will provide it for my nieces.

I have spanked my niece and have done since whenever they do something horrible that i do not accept and it works wonders for me.
I think the main issue with this society is that the discipline has been sucked out because the Government sees fit to get involved in a area where it needs to mind its own business.

I'd rather my child fears me than have a child that will beat me or disrespect me (both things i have seen)
I recall when i was at a sleepover with one of my friends houses when i was 15, Jenny was so horrific to her Mother it was unbelieveable. Stole money, slapped her and part of the reason i think she did that was because she did not fear her parent. My mom would have killed me if raised a hand to her and rightly so, i will not (even to this day) dare raise my voice to my Mom

With my sister, she has not given her son structure or boundries. My father spanked us. To this day, I have a strained relationship. Throughout my childhood/adulthood, I have been aware of this underlying negative feeling I have towards him. I am ashamed to admit it. He has expressed his regret in spanking us, but the damage has been done. I used to have nightmares about my father because he scared me. I don't see how that is a positive thing. It may have worked to some extent with me, but not really. I remember doing things knowing it would result in a spanking, and yet I would still do it.

I'll be interested to see how my discipline method compares to theirs. I have read this book that teaches you about showing respect to your child early on and that such respect is returned. We're talking about during the toddler years. We shall see.
 
Well I view it differently. I also will apply it to adults. I have been arrested a few times due to this but I still feel I am in the right. If some adult is being a dick to me or my family for no reason what so ever they should expect to swallow my fist. I will take a couple days in jail if it shows these people that as far as Im concerned the law wont protect them being a prick.

Wow. Well, you are consistent.
 
Well I view it differently. I also will apply it to adults. I have been arrested a few times due to this but I still feel I am in the right. If some adult is being a dick to me or my family for no reason what so ever they should expect to swallow my fist. I will take a couple days in jail if it shows these people that as far as Im concerned the law wont protect them being a prick.

So when you physically strike adults, you are arrested. Society does not condone this behavior on your part.
But when you physically strike children, there is no consequence.
Does this seem fair to you?
Does it seem at all odd that society extends protection from physical violence to adults, but not to children?

Your arrests seem not to have changed your views, nor deterred you from the behavior they were intended to deter you from.
What would? Would being physically struck show you the error of your ways?
And if no, why do you assume it will work on anyone?
 
With my sister, she has not given her son structure or boundries. My father spanked us. To this day, I have a strained relationship. Throughout my childhood/adulthood, I have been aware of this underlying negative feeling I have towards him. I am ashamed to admit it. He has expressed his regret in spanking us, but the damage has been done. I used to have nightmares about my father because he scared me. I don't see how that is a positive thing. It may have worked to some extent with me, but not really. I remember doing things knowing it would result in a spanking, and yet I would still do it.

I'll be interested to see how my discipline method compares to theirs. I have read this book that teaches you about showing respect to your child early on and that such respect is returned. We're talking about during the toddler years. We shall see.

I'm sorry you went through that but not every case in the same.

I love my Mom to death and she was sometimes very harsh with me. She did smack me and spank and i thank her to this day
The discipline she taught me stays with me as does the manners and her lessons

My Mom will never ever regret disciplining me, compared to what she went through (she was raised in Africa where there is no such thing as 'child abuse' - from the age of 9 she was cooking, cleaning, herding sheep and camels and working to earn her keep) i was in comparison a spoilt brat. My mom was too lenient on me imo

You let me know how it turns out :p
 
With my sister, she has not given her son structure or boundries. My father spanked us. To this day, I have a strained relationship. Throughout my childhood/adulthood, I have been aware of this underlying negative feeling I have towards him. I am ashamed to admit it. He has expressed his regret in spanking us, but the damage has been done. I used to have nightmares about my father because he scared me. I don't see how that is a positive thing. It may have worked to some extent with me, but not really. I remember doing things knowing it would result in a spanking, and yet I would still do it.

I'll be interested to see how my discipline method compares to theirs. I have read this book that teaches you about showing respect to your child early on and that such respect is returned. We're talking about during the toddler years. We shall see.

Really, you was just a kid. You shouldnt let something this small get to you. My dad did it to me, infact i was 14 at the time and he seriously went for me. But at the end of the day you was a child and probably friggin deserved it. Tough luck, thats how you should view it. Unless your farther really stepped over the boundaries...or rather the fine line of disciplining your child and just being sheer abusive which my father has passed before. Again just take the view that you was "a kid and probably deserved it". Its no big deal but obviously i dont know what you have been through so i cant say anything.
 
I'm sorry you went through that but not every case in the same.

I love my Mom to death and she was sometimes very harsh with me. She did smack me and spank and i thank her to this day
The discipline she taught me stays with me as does the manners and her lessons

My Mom will never ever regret disciplining me, compared to what she went through (she was raised in Africa where there is no such thing as 'child abuse' - from the age of 9 she was cooking, cleaning, herding sheep and camels and working to earn her keep) i was in comparison a spoilt brat. My mom was too lenient on me imo

You let me know how it turns out :p

My father's spanking was too harsh and too frequent, IMO. Had his discipline had been few and far in between, maybe I would feel differently.
 
So when you physically strike adults, you are arrested. Society does not condone this behavior on your part.
But when you physically strike children, there is no consequence.
Does this seem fair to you?
Does it seem at all odd that society extends protection from physical violence to adults, but not to children?

Your arrests seem not to have changed your views, nor deterred you from the behavior they were intended to deter you from.
What would? Would being physically struck show you the error of your ways?
And if no, why do you assume it will work on anyone?


Does it show either the error of there ways? Probably not but it will show that you will not tolerate the behavior in your presence.

With children you have little legal means to inforce the rules. If a child refuses to clean there room for example you cannot press charges.
 
My father's spanking was too harsh and too frequent, IMO. Had his discipline had been few and far in between, maybe I would feel differently.

Were they done for no reason whatsoever/
Did you as a child do anything to trigger it? Or did your father just do so out of some sort of sick pleasure?

You probably would have, your own experience has affected how you see the entire debate.
I got smacked when i deserved it
 
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