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Drive to legalize marijuana rolls on in California

Everything you said, is happening right now. Everything. It doesn't take much to start an indoor grow. Or even a small crop outdoors. The high THC quality is happening right now, right now, in a **** load of illegal grows. NO govt involvement. No taxes, no pesticides. Purely organic. :rofl


No, it's not. I mentioned being able to go pick it up like a six-pack, from your local grocer. You can't do that, jack, and even you should recognize that once a product becomes legal, and people are able to work with it in the open without fear of legal penalty, it gets better and better. That SOME of this has happened so far, despite its illegal status, goes to show how much better it could be and how much better it could be distributed. Also, it'd not be a criminal activity that would cost people their livelihoods.

I also mentioned that it would provide tax dollars instead of siphoning them away from better uses. That's a big difference in what's happening now. If you can't see that legalizing a product, and taking it out of the control of the black market changes its status, and how it gets to the customer, then i'm not sure how to help you.

Are you really claiming that marijuana is such a special product that it is the one magical item that nothing about it changes once its use and distribution is legalized? Really? Wow, that's some magic weed! It completely overthrows the laws of economics and capitalism. Why'd we ever worry about the communists when all it takes to destroy capitalism is one little plant?
 
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Not only that, but the blow to the drug cartels would be a major reason on it's own.

How's that going to hurt the cartels? They're already smuggling drugs that are illegal. What's a little tax evasion to them? The illegal cigarette and liquir businesses are multi-million dollar industries in this country.
 
How's that going to hurt the cartels? They're already smuggling drugs that are illegal. What's a little tax evasion to them? The illegal cigarette and liquir businesses are multi-million dollar industries in this country.

Because when a product is legal, suppliers and distributors don't have to do business with dangerous criminals willing to take the risk of moving and producing an illegal product. Professional businessmen would put the mj cartels out of business rather quickly, i think, because they could purchase and move the product like tomatoes or oranges, and not like child porn or heroin. Don't you agree?
 
So you admit that it does happen. That's good. We're making progress. You've heard of the 21st amendment, i gather?

WTF are you talking about? Are you high now? The federal government grabs power all the time, when did I ever say it didn't? How does that do anything to counter what I said? Wow.

Indeed. It's a lesson we really need to learn and do something about. Unfortunately, those who get into power soon forget that power corrupts, and so the new boss takes on the mantle and mannerisms of the old boss.

Durrr, see the Republocrats

Or you've taken a 5th grade history class. It's a fairly basic concept. Knowing 5th grade history aside, why are you so certain that mj will not be legalized? I think mj will be legalized because of the current trends and the desperation for tax dollars. (In other words, because i pay attention to the world around me). Do you have anything substantive on this issue, or am i supposed to just change my opinion to yours every time you express yourself?

Well if you're done being condescending. While the States may wish to legalize in total marijuana so that they can sell and tax it (and I think it's up to the State's to decide for themselves what they want, I think the War on Drugs is nothing more than a propaganda war meant to justify the expansion of the federal government, but as we have already established once the federal government seizes power, it rarely gives it back), those laws will be at odds with the federal laws and agencies, notably the DEA. While Obama said he would halt the raids against medical marijuana, it's already been said that they will not stop for marijuana in general. So a State can say, "we're not going to enforce this, in fact we're going to legalize and tax it" and the federal government will say "think again!". Because the federal government has already usurped that power long ago and will be very unwilling to yield it back.
 
That's my point. Anyone with a script can grow green dope right now in CA. Doesn't take much to package and make a few sales to make extra cash, tax free. What's a buyer going to do? Ask for your business license? You see, it doesn't take much to grow high quality green dope and undercut the gov't taxed dope. The gov't will not sell it for free? Right? Doesn't take much to recover your operating costs until a profit is made. Doesn't take much to grow a few plants in your backyard and make an enormous profit.

Damn, I think I might go into farming. :rofl

Why would I as a consumer buy your home grown weed which would likely be grown outdoors, pollinated and laced with seeds at risk of breaking the law to save a few dollars, when I can just drive down the street and buy sinsemilla much the same way I would drive to the liquor store.

You would have very little demand for your product, just as there is very little demand for moonshine currently.

Illegal distillation of spirits carries a penalty of up to 5 years in jail and/or up to a $10k fine with the same penalties for attempting to defraud the IRS. A similar penalty for illegal cultivation/distribution would be a significant deterrent.

Would there still be a few who will do it despite the penalties? yes. Will it have a significant impact to the legally generated tax revenues from legal MJ?? Much the same as moonshine has very little impact on the collection of alcohol taxes, the impact would be minuscule.
 
Well, it makes sense to let one state try it out. Then, if it works the anti-drug folks wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

They don't have a leg to stand on now. It hasn't stopped them from interfering.
 
WTF are you talking about? Are you high now? The federal government grabs power all the time, when did I ever say it didn't? How does that do anything to counter what I said? Wow.

Calm yourself. You said that the government "rarely" gives up power, or something to that effect. If it "rarely" does it, then they sometimes do it. Or did you misspeak, and said "rarely" when you meant to say "never"?


Durrr, see the Republocrats

Ohmygosh?! Really? Yeah, i'm the one that's high. :roll:


Well if you're done being condescending.

You're the one being condescending by not paying attention to the very words you write and at least trying to be consistent. Don't blame me for your mistakes.


While the States may wish to legalize in total marijuana so that they can sell and tax it (and I think it's up to the State's to decide for themselves what they want, I think the War on Drugs is nothing more than a propaganda war meant to justify the expansion of the federal government, but as we have already established once the federal government seizes power, it rarely gives it back),

You said that they do it, albeit rarely. I'm saying that this is one of those rarities.


those laws will be at odds with the federal laws and agencies, notably the DEA. While Obama said he would halt the raids against medical marijuana, it's already been said that they will not stop for marijuana in general. So a State can say, "we're not going to enforce this, in fact we're going to legalize and tax it" and the federal government will say "think again!". Because the federal government has already usurped that power long ago and will be very unwilling to yield it back.

Sorry, Ikari, your say so is just not good enough for me, no matter how many times you repeat it as if it is proven fact.
 
How's that going to hurt the cartels? They're already smuggling drugs that are illegal. What's a little tax evasion to them? The illegal cigarette and liquir businesses are multi-million dollar industries in this country.

As much as 70% of cartel revenues is from marijuana. they may very well try to continue, however their profit margin will be undercut, their market will be undercut, and what was a multi-BILLION dollar is now merely a multi-million dollar enterprise. There is a huge difference between billions and millions.

Why would anyone buy their poor quality smuggled shwag, or their seed laden product from a domestic grow, when one can legally buy superior product at the corner store?
 
The government rarely gives up power once it's seized it. History is full of the abuses and natural paths of government. I know this because I pay attention to the world around me.

See what you typed?
 
See what you typed?

Are you done? They do rarely give it up, and this isn't one of those cases. It's already been stated that while they will currently not go after medical marijuana, they aren't going to stop prosecuting the full of it. The federal government will overrule the State here, they've said so. California can look into getting rid of laws against it, but the DEA will not stop investigations and arrests. Sorry, you're the one who isn't reading what is there. You can stop with the condescension and just read. It's not "I say so", it's "the federal government already said so".

Drug czar: Feds won't support legalized pot - Local - fresnobee.com
The federal government is not going to pull back on its efforts to curtail marijuana farming operations, Gil Kerlikowske, director of the White House's Office of National Drug Control Policy, said Wednesday in Fresno.

The nation's drug czar, who viewed a foothill marijuana farm on U.S. Forest Service land with state and local officials earlier Wednesday, said the federal government will not support legalizing marijuana.

"Legalization is not in the president's vocabulary, and it's not in mine," he said.

Kerlikowske said he can understand why legislators are talking about taxing marijuana cultivation to help cash-strapped government agencies in California. But the federal government views marijuana as a harmful and addictive drug, he said.

"Marijuana is dangerous and has no medicinal benefit," Kerlikowske said in downtown Fresno while discussing Operation SOS -- Save Our Sierra -- a multiagency effort to eradicate marijuana in eastern Fresno County.

Jesus Christ.
 
As much as 70% of cartel revenues is from marijuana. they may very well try to continue, however their profit margin will be undercut, their market will be undercut, and what was a multi-BILLION dollar is now merely a multi-million dollar enterprise. There is a huge difference between billions and millions.

Why would anyone buy their poor quality smuggled shwag, or their seed laden product from a domestic grow, when one can legally buy superior product at the corner store?

Because the government will get greedy and merely try to replace the black marketeer, keeping the retail price almost as high as it's current ridiculous cost. And this idiocy will provide the niche for the black market to survive.

However, once the subtance is no longer a crime to grow, it's going to get harder to prosecute people for growing friggin' weeds. Once the door is unlocked and cracked open, it's a matter of time before it's pushed open and government influence is reduced by popular demand.

Alcohol prohibition did end because of public pressure, don't forget.
 
Sammyo, unfortunately we are bound by treaties which we force fed to the international community that would be rather difficult to wiggle our way out of.

Full federal legalization is likely not going to happen with marijuana maintaining its current international scheduling, (this is why Portugal decriminalized drugs as opposed to legalizing them).

Should Ca and other states legalize MJ there are a lot of legal battles and constitutional issues that would need to be sorted out, especially in regards to the 10th amendment.

Our States are not bound to abide by the treaties; however our federal government is.

How this plays out is contingent on the international community reexamining the current treaties, and their efficacy, or rescheduling marijuana. There is already a call to do reevaluate these treaties, especially among Central and South American nations; however our government still disagrees.
 
"Marijuana is dangerous and has no medicinal benefit," Kerlikowske said in downtown Fresno while discussing Operation SOS -- Save Our Sierra -- a multiagency effort to eradicate marijuana in eastern Fresno County.

Buncha boobs.

The best way and the easiest way to get illegal marijuana farms out of the federal forests is to end the criminalization of weed growing. Damn few people want to go through the hassle of sneaking out to illegally grow weeds on federal land if they could only grow the stuff on their own land without getting arrested by the cops.
 
Buncha boobs.

The best way and the easiest way to get illegal marijuana farms out of the federal forests is to end the criminalization of weed growing. Damn few people want to go through the hassle of sneaking out to illegally grow weeds on federal land if they could only grow the stuff on their own land without getting arrested by the cops.

Yup, pot is one drug which has no point in being illegal. But it's historical and you're going to have a damned tough fight getting the federal government to give this one up.
 
Because the government will get greedy and merely try to replace the black marketeer, keeping the retail price almost as high as it's current ridiculous cost. And this idiocy will provide the niche for the black market to survive.

It is CRITICAL that this is done right so that it can get it out of the black market, and out of the hand of our children.

As pro-legalization as I am, I am completely against the proposed Mass. legislation which would levy as much as $250/Oz in taxes. Whats the point when (this is subject to geographic variance) you can get an ounce of Mexican shwag for $100-$200/Oz.

Ca seems to have the balance right with their $50/Oz. still enough room to make a profit, and still plenty of leeway to sell the best genetics at the same price as current low grade mexican, and still make a profit.

Edit: on reading the actual proposed Mass. legislation I just noticed this after the taxation amounts:

Subject to approval by the general court, such excise shall be adjusted by the authority from time to time as necessary to maximize the revenue derived therefrom, and to minimize the incentive for the sale of cannabis not in accordance with the provisions of this act.

That is a very prudent clause, gives them plenty of room to tweak, but still one has wonder what the balance between "maximizing revenue" and "minimizing incentive" would be.
 
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Are you done?

That's entirely up to you, isn't it? You're the one who said that it "rarely happens" and then turned around and acted like you never allowed that it happened at all. That's on your dime, not mine.


They do rarely give it up, and this isn't one of those cases.

They "rarely" do it, so it stands that this could be one of those rare cases. You claiming that it isn't, carries no more weight than me claiming that it is. You can sit there and claim that they won't do it, and i can sit here and claim that we will, and at the end of the day neither of us has anything more than we had when we started.


It's already been stated that while they will currently not go after medical marijuana, they aren't going to stop prosecuting the full of it. The federal government will overrule the State here, they've said so. California can look into getting rid of laws against it, but the DEA will not stop investigations and arrests. Sorry, you're the one who isn't reading what is there. You can stop with the condescension and just read. It's not "I say so", it's "the federal government already said so".

I'm not being condescending, i'm holding you to a standard. I'm not sorry if you can't handle needing to be consistent in what you say. Again, that's your deal. Our gov't changes its mind all the time, so to speak. That they've said one thing for a while doesn't mean that they might not change their minds. That's fallacious reasoning.


Jesus Christ.

Yes my child?
 
Because the government will get greedy and merely try to replace the black marketeer, keeping the retail price almost as high as it's current ridiculous cost. And this idiocy will provide the niche for the black market to survive.

Good grief!! With that sort of insight into the future you should be making a fortune in the stock market! How do you know so much about what WILL happen, for sure?
 
They "rarely" do it, so it stands that this could be one of those rare cases. You claiming that it isn't, carries no more weight than me claiming that it is. You can sit there and claim that they won't do it, and i can sit here and claim that we will, and at the end of the day neither of us has anything more than we had when we started.

I gave you the link guy. The federal government has already stated that it will not allow the legalization of marijuana. Done deal. You're being obtuse and stubborn to hold onto a position. The States may currently be considering legalization, but at this time the federal government isn't going to let it go. It's going to take a lot more than some States wanting legalization for the federal government to let go of its power.

I'm not being condescending, i'm holding you to a standard. I'm not sorry if you can't handle needing to be consistent in what you say. Again, that's your deal. Our gov't changes its mind all the time, so to speak. That they've said one thing for a while doesn't mean that they might not change their minds. That's fallacious reasoning.

No, condescension and the stubbornness of a mule is all you have going for you. You try to insult me with a meaningless and nonsensical statement. I've provided the link and quotes which show the federal government has no intention at this time of letting go. The government "changes it's mind all the time". Ha. They flip flop a lot for sure, but not often does it result in the relinquishing of power. That flip flop is usually over ways to abuse power. It all comes down you want this legalized and you are taking exception because I'm saying not bloody likely. The federal government isn't just going to relinquish this power, it likes it because it gives it a lot of freedom to move against the States and the People. They've said THEMSELVES that they won't let it go. That's not me just making a claim, that's the actual federal government saying it. So I suggest you read what's been posted and maybe instead of trying to be sly and condescending and post pointless insults which have nothing to do with anything in this thread, you figure out exactly what those words mean so the next time you run your mouth you don't look the fool.
 
I gave you the link guy. The federal government has already stated that it will not allow the legalization of marijuana. Done deal.

::sigh:: And the gov't says one thing and does another ALL THE FRICKIN' TIME. Yeah, at one time they said that alcohol was going to be illegal. You can go buy a beer at the local gas station, today. Jeez, what will it take for you to realize that what the government says is not set in stone?


You're being obtuse and stubborn to hold onto a position. The States may currently be considering legalization, but at this time the federal government isn't going to let it go. It's going to take a lot more than some States wanting legalization for the federal government to let go of its power.

Yeah, and i'm not talking about "at this time," am i? No, i'm talking about as things progress. As time goes by, the gov't changes how it does things.


No, condescension and the stubbornness of a mule is all you have going for you.

You're the only one being condescending and stubborn, here. If you simply realized the silliness of your accusations, you'd be embarrassed, but obviously you don't have the intellect to justly evaluate our two positions and how weak is your stance in comparison with mine. Sure, you may feel all high and mighty stating what the fed is going to do or not do forever and ever, but it's a worthless statement seeing as the gov't changes, fairly often, how it does things.


You try to insult me with a meaningless and nonsensical statement.

FAIL

I'm not "trying to insult you". Just because you feel justified in saying what the gov't is going to do for the next half a century doesn't give you the right to assume my motives. If you had any dignity, you'd apologize for presuming what i'm "trying" to do.


I've provided the link and quotes which show the federal government has no intention at this time of letting go. The government "changes it's mind all the time". Ha. They flip flop a lot for sure, but not often does it result in the relinquishing of power. That flip flop is usually over ways to abuse power.

You just did it again. "usually". Yeah, the fed usually does things a certain way. You can't just go around declaring that because the gov't usually does things one way, it'll never change. That's silly, and you know it, or you'd not put in such qualifiers as "usually".


It all comes down you want this legalized and you are taking exception because I'm saying not bloody likely.

Wrong again. Tell me, does this attitude of just going around and assuming people's motives work out for you well in your personal life. I can just see it, you meet somebody for the first time wearing a blue shirt, and you're like, "Oh, you're an asshole because you're wearing a blue shirt and only assholes wear blue shirts!" You must be a big hit at all the parties with the sort of presumptuous ideology that runs your engine.


The federal government isn't just going to relinquish this power, it likes it because it gives it a lot of freedom to move against the States and the People. They've said THEMSELVES that they won't let it go. That's not me just making a claim, that's the actual federal government saying it.

You can't state what the gov't will or won't do, just because of their stance in the past. Obviously the gov't changes how it does things, and that change is a hell of a lot more obvious and apparent then whether or not they'll do a specific thing in the future.


So I suggest you read what's been posted and maybe instead of trying to be sly and condescending and post pointless insults which have nothing to do with anything in this thread, you figure out exactly what those words mean so the next time you run your mouth you don't look the fool.

Well, why don't you stop acting like you know the future and it couldn't possibly go any other way except the way you've declared by fiat. Just go ahead and admit that things might not go exactly the way you always predict. It'll be a big weight off your shoulders, i'm sure.
 
Whatever. You can't see the forest for the trees. You want so badly for pot to be legalized that you refuse to take into account what the federal government itself says. "Oh the federal government changes its mind all the time..." blah blah blah. That's nothing more than conjecture on your part that it will just turn around on this issue. Not right now, it's going to take well more pressure on them to make them give it up.

Just because I say something rarely happens doesn't mean that it's gaurnateed to be this time. Stop and think for a change. The government rarely gives up its power, that doesn't mean that it's gaurnateed that the government will reverse its position on marijuana. Maybe it will, but it's not likely. And it's not going to happen now, not during Obama's administration because the DEA and the federal government have already came out and said they won't stop their enforcement of marijuana laws. That's their current stance. Man, you're just being purposefully obtuse because of your personal ideals on this case. You're ignoring evidence from the federal government itself. They said they aren't going to stop. Guess what that means? They ain't gonna stop. There is going to have to be a lot of pressure other than some strapped for cash States looking into marijuana legalization to get the federal government to change its stance.

That's reality, no matter how much you want to rally against it; that's reality. End of story. I have no interest in "debating" with a mule, so do whatever you want. But you're conjecture and speculation does nothing to change reality.
 
My bad, Ikari, you obviously know the future of the universe and what the gov't will or won't do, and your opinions are far more important than any facts or possibilities. You say that the fed won't change its mind on marijuana, and obviously, plainly, if we were to go into the future to the year 2130, the gov't would look exactly like you say it will look, and pot will still be illegal. I mean, here i was thinking that even if there was a possibility that marijuana might get legalized at some point, your "NO IT WON'T BE" claims would be wrong. I mean, all it takes is the POSSIBILITY. But what do i know. Just because the possibility exists that doesn't trump your prophetic power. Oh, and even though you have no idea what i'm thinking or what my motives are, you're obviously correct on any and all assumptions you make about me.

Sorry to doubt your fortune telling skills. Do you forgive me?

Oh, can you tell me what i'll be wearing tomorrow, and what my opinion will be then? Thanks.
 
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I said it will take more pressure than a few strapped for cash States wanting to legalize marijuana for the federal government to change its position. Not that it won't happen. Learn to read.
 
I said it will take more pressure than a few strapped for cash States wanting to legalize marijuana for the federal government to change its position. Not that it won't happen. Learn to read.


Ummm...


And it's not going to happen now, not during Obama's administration because the DEA and the federal government have already came out and said


Nope. You said it won't happen now or during obama's admin. You're so sure of yourself, you must be right. There's no other explanation. I've come to see the light. Praise jesus.
 
Nope. You said it won't happen now or during obama's admin. You're so sure of yourself, you must be right. There's no other explanation. I've come to see the light. Praise jesus.

They said they won't. That's their stance. I have your conjecture and wishful thinking saying that it's going to change, or I have official federal government stance saying that it won't. Hmmmm. "But government changes it's mind all the time" blah blah blah. Not without outside pressure. The federal government has taken the position as dictated by the Obama administration that it will not stop enforcement of marijuana laws. If a State legalizes marijuana, the federal government is not going to recognize that. That's reality. It's not going to change now, or during Obama's administration with just some States wanting to legalize it. That's it. That's fact. Without a significant increase in pressure, it's not going to change. Cry as much as you want, it's not going to change reality.
 
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