Who's to blame in sex assault of girl? Father says nobody

Slithering Rainbow said:

It doesn't matter what she did. Nothing anyone does ever IMO makes sexual assult or abuse okay. Period.

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Just to clarify, I do not think anyone claimed sexual assault or abuse was okay.

Goldenboy219 said:

BTW, how was i power whining? Catz made comments about my moral character knowing full well the circumstances surrounding my initial response to the OP; meaning she must have skipped over that part.

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Catz called you for making a bad argument with a bad analogy, and you vomited forth a lot of tripe about you keeping your emotions in check when others weren't. That's power whining--the sort that merits a serving of Brie or Camembert.

Goldenboy219 said:

Do tell, how would you have gone about it, or would you have done (play DA) it at all?

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The proper way to play Devil's Advocate in this situation is to consider the credibility of the testimonies given and consider the possibility that the boys were innocent of the charge. Regardless of the severity of the crime, until convicted by a jury the boys still enjoy the presumption of innocence.

Your approach was to accept the guilt of the boys, then proceed to rationalize how one might hold the girl accountable for their guilt. Lame logic and a scuzz-bucket ethical stance to boot.

Logic and moral fail....big time.

This really surprises people? Many people STILL blame women for their own rapes. They dressed too sexy, they flirted, or hell... they talked to their assailants. Yes, it's much better now than it used to be in the US with the 'blame the victim' thing, but it hasn't been all that long now, so the same mentality shouldn't really surprise folks.

It's especially unsurprising by people who come from cultures who feel women are so extraordinarily powerful that they render men completely helpless simply by showing their face to them.

Sad, yes. Stupid, yes. Surprising? Not so much.

celticlord said:

Catz called you for making a bad argument with a bad analogy, and you vomited forth a lot of tripe about you keeping your emotions in check when others weren't.

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Actually, my logic was spot on in regards to the context of my words. I could care less if you agree, as the intention was not to convince people of anything, but to engage in a discussion that had discoursing dialog. The few of you who obviously got upset need to relax.

That's power whining--the sort that merits a serving of Brie or Camembert.

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When someone starts attacking you for being immoral or out of their mind (emotional rebuttal much like the one you have attempted to conceal), I am going to respond in proper fashion, and call them on it. You can say what you want about my analogy, but specific comments and tones toward me were conceived from feelings of anger.

The proper way to play Devil's Advocate in this situation is to consider the credibility of the testimonies given and consider the possibility that the boys were innocent of the charge. Regardless of the severity of the crime, until convicted by a jury the boys still enjoy the presumption of innocence.

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Pertaining to the OP, the question that was in doubt was "fault" not whether the boys were innocent or not. Whether the boys are guilty or not, the fathers inability to either A.) educate his daughter properly & B.) keep an eye on her: led to the situation. None the less, it does not seem likely at all, given the witnesses accounts, that there was a mix up.

From the article:

Officers were called to the scene after receiving phone calls about the young girl screaming, and running out of the shed partially clothed.

Arriving officers said they saw several boys running from the scene, and were able to detain one and later identify three more.

Hill said all the boys, ages 9, 10, 13 and 14, have been arrested and put in a juvenile corrections center. All four have apparently admitted to planning the assault and have been charged in the case.

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You see, i have a very hard time believing that witnesses were mistaken, or the girl did not receive a rape kit prior to the release of this story. In fact, they could not technically charge the boys with sexual assault without doing so.

Your approach was to accept the guilt of the boys, then proceed to rationalize how one might hold the girl accountable for their guilt. Lame logic and a scuzz-bucket ethical stance to boot.

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I was not able to diverge the guilty party until a few pages in the thread because i was stormed with such outrage. Here is what you fail to comprehend: I was not trying to shift the guilt, and i made that perfectly clear from the onslaught.

Logic and moral fail....big time.

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Identify the unsoundness of my logic, or go for a walk and breath slowly. You are in no position to challenge my morality. But your attitude is an example of how people behave irrationally when angered or outraged.

Have a nice day, and no hard feelings. Unless of course you want to continue being a dick. :2wave:

Goldenboy219 said:

Identify the unsoundness of my logic

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I told you: bad analogy. Catz told you: bad analogy.

First, comparing the judgment of an 8 year old to that of a teenager doesn't wash. Even before factoring in the enormous changes in cognitive thinking that take place after age 8, the levels of experience are so dramatically different as to render comparisons worthless. Simply put, 8 year olds are not teenagers.

Second, comparing a teenager committing a criminal act (attempting to buy heroin is illegal) to an 8 year old minding her own business is also meaningless. The teenager is going out of his way to put himself in harm's way--committing crimes is dangerous. The 8 year old girl was not seeking out a dangerous situation.

Finally, we come to those cognitive differences. An 8 year old wouldn't recognize the danger of an oncoming car until it smacks her; a teenager generally would. Abstract reasoning pretty much doesn't exist in an 8 year old--that's why rules for kids that young about "no talking to strangers" generally fail: they are cognitively unable to understand the term "stranger".

Any one of these defects alone renders your logic fatally flawed. That you cling to it in the face of decided and deserved condemnation is morally suspect.

Goldenboy219 said:

You are in no position to challenge my morality.

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That's because to challenge it I'd have to find it (and I seem to have misplaced my magnifying glass).

celticlord said:

That's because to challenge it I'd have to find it (and I seem to have misplaced my magnifying glass).

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Or it's because "morals" are entirely subjective...

celticlord said:

I told you: bad analogy. Catz told you: bad analogy.

First, comparing the judgment of an 8 year old to that of a teenager doesn't wash. Even before factoring in the enormous changes in cognitive thinking that take place after age 8, the levels of experience are so dramatically different as to render comparisons worthless. Simply put, 8 year olds are not teenagers.

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You know my example was in context to the actions, not the motivating agents thoughts behind them. It makes not one shred of difference whether the they are 8 or 80, the fact that this little girl was allowed to, and did go with those boys allowed the situation to take place.

Second, comparing a teenager committing a criminal act (attempting to buy heroin is illegal) to an 8 year old minding her own business is also meaningless. The teenager is going out of his way to put himself in harm's way--committing crimes is dangerous. The 8 year old girl was not seeking out a dangerous situation.

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You are making quite a bit of assumptions, the first is the perception of the teenager. Who know's maybe they have been there many times before, and feel they would be safe, that they "know the dealers". Regardless, that is not my point... at... all. It is (and in my example i was considering the person to be a female teenager but whatever) all about the sheer act of "going". No presence, no murder. Get it? Got it? Good... I hope:doh

Finally, we come to those cognitive differences. An 8 year old wouldn't recognize the danger of an oncoming car until it smacks her; a teenager generally would. Abstract reasoning pretty much doesn't exist in an 8 year old--that's why rules for kids that young about "no talking to strangers" generally fail: they are cognitively unable to understand the term "stranger".

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I say you are grasping at straws in bold. Regardless, the best way to avoid getting hit by a car is not to be there. For 4 weeks, i watched my little nephew, who was 8 years old; and the very first thing i did when we went anywhere, every time, was tell him not to talk to anyone if we happened to get separated. I informed him of every scenario, and then proceeded to scare the lights out of him using hypothetical stories. Not one time did he leave my side, and asked every time to go play with other children, where he was in constant view. And this is throughout southern California, with days at Disney, California adventure, Universal, Venice Beach, Long Beach, Hunnington, and even Tijuana. So take your bull**** somewhere else.

Any one of these defects alone renders your logic fatally flawed. That you cling to it in the face of decided and deserved condemnation is morally suspect.

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If i was attempting to blame the little girl, you would have quite the point. But i was not, no matter if you are convinced or not. It was about her sheer presence.

That's because to challenge it I'd have to find it (and I seem to have misplaced my magnifying glass).

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Well when you find it, proceed to locating your.... needle.... err... personality.... Anyone of accusing me of "shifting blame" most likely has issues in real life social situations. Your attempt to build straw men has been called. I even referred to her as the "dependent variable", so people would know i was using the act as a premise. Her mentality has very little to do with it.

That is just so wrong. WTH is wrong with the parents? I think they need to look into this girls homelife cause it cannot be good with crappy parents like that

Edit. I can see why they are looking into the cultural thing because as the article says the adults in the family are still in the mindframe of where they came from.

Also in parts of West Africa? They think nothing of clitorial mutilation and think girls should get no pleasure at all from sex. :shock:

:shock: ........

Realist1 said:

Why the Hell are we letting sub-humans like this into the Country?

Femi Babarinde, an African Studies professor from the Thunderbird School of Global Management, said it is normal to feel shame because of a rape in the family in the Liberian culture.

"When you look at the shame culture in African societies it basically means something negative happened and it affects not only that individual [the victim] but the family and extended family," said Babarinde. "They may be reacting to the attention that this will get and the knowledge of this within the community that could be a source of embarrassment."


:smash:

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I think calling them subhuman is very unfair. You know only what culture you are raised in unless you are exposed to other things. :doh

Reverend_Hellh0und said:

Where do these ****ing savages get the idea that the girl child is at fault for getting gang raped and why, why is police department:




Really? What purpose would learning this help in explaining savagry?


Sometimes people in this world make me sick.

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You can't blame Liberians for acting like Liberians.

The real issue is why are they in America? Anyone who does not acknowledge American ideals should not be granted American citizenship.

celticlord said:

Police need to be exploring ways to charge the parents (including those of the victim) with abuse and neglect. The four boys are to blame, and the parents are to blame for letting the boys think that this was an ok way to behave.

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A 14 year old raped an 8 year old, what kind of a freaking fruit little bastard is this? He should have to wear a sign in public that says, "I'm a rapist".

Kali said:

I think calling them subhuman is very unfair. You know only what culture you are raised in unless you are exposed to other things. :doh

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I think I was being generous in my description. Most wild animals will "defend their young"...These "creatures" sure don't.:roll:

Liberia only outlawed rape 3 years ago. Even now, they only have a single rape clinic (kind of sick they would need one when you think about it), some of these females have to travel very long distances to go to the rape clinic so evidence will be properly handled. Even then the chances of the rapist being held responsible for their crime is slim to none.

On the other hand...the chance of the female (I will not say woman here because many of the rape victims are children like the one some are trying to pretend brought this gang rape upon herself) being held responsible for being raped are extremely high.

When I read these articles about the little girl being kidnapped and raped by these pigs I did a little research about rape in Liberia...how it is viewed culturally in that part of the world. What I read is very disturbing.

Here's a link to one article for reference...

IRIN Africa | West Africa | Liberia | LIBERIA: Rape in Liberia still goes unpunished | Gender Issues Human Rights | Feature

The father's "response" to the rape is reprehensible. Something I note that is missing is a single word from the mother. This child will be put in danger if she is returned to the two idiots she calls Mom and Dad.

What I find stunning is that people such as these come to America as refugees for a better life and as a nation, we open our arms to them. But they just can't seem to muster the intelligence it takes to leave the garbage behind them...instead they insist on bringing it right along with them expecting us to accept it as a "cultural" norm. It they wanted to enjoy the culture and all the trash that goes with it...why in the hell did they come here as refugees anyway?

Lock the pigs that raped this child (yeah, she is a child and is NOT responsible for the rape) up for years and years and years to come. Let them be educated about our prison systems and just how much we loathe child rapist....it's a cultural thing you know.

After that are released from prison deport their sorry asses right back to the country from which they fled.

Oh and the waste of skin this child calls Mom and Dad? Relieve them of custody of that child. They have proved they are too stupid to take care of her and since they are so concerned about the culture of the hellhole they left behind...I say we give them a one way ticket back to the hellhole.

We do not need them to impose the low standards of their "culture" on the good people of this country.

bella-day said:

The father's "response" to the rape is reprehensible. Something I note that is missing is a single word from the mother. This child will be put in danger if she is returned to the two idiots she calls Mom and Dad.

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In realistic terms, this girl was victimized by these boys, and she is now likely to be victimized by the system. From her perspective, she has already been removed from the only family she knows and placed with strangers, where she may or may not be safe (read up on abuse in the foster care system).

She will be fortunate if she makes it to adulthood with any sense of normalcy and without being victimized again.

Catz Part Deux said:

In realistic terms, this girl was victimized by these boys, and she is now likely to be victimized by the system. From her perspective, she has already been removed from the only family she knows and placed with strangers, where she may or may not be safe (read up on abuse in the foster care system).

She will be fortunate if she makes it to adulthood with any sense of normalcy and without being victimized again.

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She will be lucky if she makes it to adulthood, period.

Catz Part Deux said:

She will be fortunate if she makes it to adulthood with any sense of normalcy and without being victimized again.

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I'd say the chances of that are already nil. She'll never be able to have a normal sexual relationship with anyone from here on, most likely.

Truly sad.