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Democrats Block GOP Health Care Mailing

WillRockwell said:
So you don't care if Congressmen send out lies using taxpayer money as long as they are Republicans? Here is what they wanted to send out, a fictitious "chart" supposedly representing the "Democratic health care plan". It's all made up, of course, and if the Republicans had been allowed to send it out, taxpayers would have paid for it.
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Well, I lot of other people have cal;led you out on not being able to explain how the cart is "made up"
 
Reverend_Hellh0und said:
So we were supposed to have our congress critters vote on a non existant plan? :roll:
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I'm curious what you people don't get about this: there is no final draft to vote on yet. It doesn't exist. It's still in committees and therefore doesn't exist as of yet. What is it about that you don't understand?
 
The right only wants propaganda sent out if it is from the Republicans and it matters not how truthful it is. In fact, the most cited recourse from the right wingers is the Lewin Group. Most numbers and opposition to the entire process are based on the Lewin Group's "research." What the GOP doesn't tell you is, the Lewing Group is owned by one of the largest Health Insurance Agencies in the nation. Oh, there's no conflict of interest there.... never. Furthermore, the Republicans pick and choose what to release from the Lewin Group's studies, leaving out critical information. This is all reported in the Washington Post, a conservative leaning paper. What does that say about said pamphlet going out? I know I know, the Republicans will use whatever "information" they can to squash this for the American people no matter how false their information is, but I would hope conservative leaning citizens wouldn't put up with it. I guess I was wrong.

washingtonpost.com
 
formerroadie said:
I'm curious what you people don't get about this: there is no final draft to vote on yet. It doesn't exist. It's still in committees and therefore doesn't exist as of yet. What is it about that you don't understand?
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So if there's no plan what was the vote that got delayed all about?
 
formerroadie said:
The right only wants propaganda sent out if it is from the Republicans and it matters not how truthful it is. In fact, the most cited recourse from the right wingers is the Lewin Group. Most numbers and opposition to the entire process are based on the Lewin Group's "research." What the GOP doesn't tell you is, the Lewing Group is owned by one of the largest Health Insurance Agencies in the nation. Oh, there's no conflict of interest there.... never. Furthermore, the Republicans pick and choose what to release from the Lewin Group's studies, leaving out critical information. This is all reported in the Washington Post, a conservative leaning paper. What does that say about said pamphlet going out? I know I know, the Republicans will use whatever "information" they can to squash this for the American people no matter how false their information is, but I would hope conservative leaning citizens wouldn't put up with it. I guess I was wrong.
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There were no lies in that chart. If there were lies, you would be pointing them out, not attempting to shoot the messenger.
 
formerroadie said:
I'm curious what you people don't get about this: there is no final draft to vote on yet. It doesn't exist. It's still in committees and therefore doesn't exist as of yet. What is it about that you don't understand?
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Doesn't exist yet, eh?

Nothing to talk about yet, eh?

Search Results - THOMAS (Library of Congress)

You seem to be saying that no discussion, debate, or criticism of anything is legitimate until it's already the law.

This, of course, is just obscene Obama toadyism.
 
Harshaw said:
Doesn't exist yet, eh?

Nothing to talk about yet, eh?

Search Results - THOMAS (Library of Congress)

You seem to be saying that no discussion, debate, or criticism of anything is legitimate until it's already the law.

This, of course, is just obscene Obama toadyism.
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Then debate about specifics in the law rather than trashing the whole thing. What is clear is, the right doesn't want it to pass so the Republicans can move back into power, plain and simple.
 
celticlord said:
So if there's no plan what was the vote that got delayed all about?
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There is no final draft to vote on.

The delay is to give them more time to figure out what it will be, if anything.
 
formerroadie said:
Then debate about specifics in the law rather than trashing the whole thing. What is clear is, the right doesn't want it to pass so the Republicans can move back into power, plain and simple.
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Or, they don't want it to pass because they think it's a bad idea, and a bad bill.

Besides, the chart they made up is VERY MUCH about "the specifics" in the bill.
 
formerroadie said:
I'm curious what you people don't get about this: there is no final draft to vote on yet. It doesn't exist. It's still in committees and therefore doesn't exist as of yet. What is it about that you don't understand?
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There is a plan getting through committees that could become the final version, or key parts of it could. That is the only version that is available, and if someone disagrees with it, they should speak up.... preferably the people who will vote on it. That is how our system of creating a bill works.
 
Harshaw said:
Doesn't exist yet, eh?

Nothing to talk about yet, eh?

Search Results - THOMAS (Library of Congress)

You seem to be saying that no discussion, debate, or criticism of anything is legitimate until it's already the law.

This, of course, is just obscene Obama toadyism.
Click to expand...

Yes, it's fine to criticize it, but don't pretend like it will be in the final bill. This is the House Bill and the Senate has to approve it too and will probably modify it. Knowing is half the battle!
 
celticlord said:
There were no lies in that chart. If there were lies, you would be pointing them out, not attempting to shoot the messenger.
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Ok, let's start with this:

Ezra Klein - When Health-Care Reform Stops Being Polite and Starts Making Charts

Then:

Dueling Health Care Flow Charts: Reality vs. GOP Propaganda | Crooks and Liars

Also it's the same crap they pulled during the Clinton years. They pass on a misleading chart that scared people because it was hopelessly convoluted. It explains nothing but the fact that the GOP is trying to scare people into their mentality and the keeping of the status quo, which is not working:

One more link:

Republican Go Back to Old Playbook with Anti-Health Care Reform Charts | The Stimulist
 
formerroadie said:
Yes, it's fine to criticize it, but don't pretend like it will be in the final bill. This is the House Bill and the Senate has to approve it too and will probably modify it. Knowing is half the battle!
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Who's "pretending" anything? They're criticizing the bill as it exists now, exactly as they should.

This really is amazing, actually. "You can't criticize this!!!! It's not even the law!!! Wait until is before you open your big fat yap!!!"
 
Alex said:
There is a plan getting through committees that could become the final version, or key parts of it could. That is the only version that is available, and if someone disagrees with it, they should speak up.... preferably the people who will vote on it. That is how our system of creating a bill works.
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I agree, but the right wingers have a tendency not to discuss specifics in a bill but rather spread rumors, lies, and make over the top comments in order to scare the public. It's their MO.
 
Harshaw said:
Who's "pretending" anything? They're criticizing the bill as it exists now, exactly as they should.

This really is amazing, actually. "You can't criticize this!!!! It's not even the law!!! Wait until is before you open your big fat yap!!!"
Click to expand...

Well, when your criticisms actually site the bill and make specific comments about specific quotes from it, you let me know.
 
formerroadie said:
Ok, let's start with this:

Ezra Klein - When Health-Care Reform Stops Being Polite and Starts Making Charts

Then:

Dueling Health Care Flow Charts: Reality vs. GOP Propaganda | Crooks and Liars

Also it's the same crap they pulled during the Clinton years. They pass on a misleading chart that scared people because it was hopelessly convoluted. It explains nothing but the fact that the GOP is trying to scare people into their mentality and the keeping of the status quo, which is not working:

One more link:

Republican Go Back to Old Playbook with Anti-Health Care Reform Charts | The Stimulist
Click to expand...

They don't say there's anything factually wrong with it. They just say it's not "scary."

So, that's what "misleading" means? Accurate, but just not scary enough?
 
formerroadie said:
Well, when your criticisms actually site the bill and make specific comments about specific quotes from it, you let me know.
Click to expand...

This is about the Republicans' chart, not "my" criticisms. Anything specific about it you care to dispute?

Nice attempt at deflection, but not being a moron, I'm not biting.
 
celticlord said:
The relevant point is that the Anti-Republicans are seeking to deny to the minority party a privilege that by law extends to all members of Congress.

So you are ok with there being one standard of law for Anti-Republicans and another standard for the rest of America?

Nice to know Anti-Republicans are more equal than the rest of us, Squealer.
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And which law would it be that is being broken? Can you point to exact cite in either the USC or US Constitution for us?

Harshaw said:
This is about the Republicans' chart, not "my" criticisms. Anything specific about it you care to dispute?

Nice attempt at deflection, but not being a moron, I'm not biting.
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The entire chart is absolutely misleading. There isnt a final bill being debated. In fact as of right now there are 4 different bills being created. So why should the GOP be allowed to send a "chart" that doesnt even reflect all bills being considered. When did we start to support government waste again?
 
formerroadie said:
Ok, let's start with this:

Ezra Klein - When Health-Care Reform Stops Being Polite and Starts Making Charts

Then:

Dueling Health Care Flow Charts: Reality vs. GOP Propaganda | Crooks and Liars

Also it's the same crap they pulled during the Clinton years. They pass on a misleading chart that scared people because it was hopelessly convoluted. It explains nothing but the fact that the GOP is trying to scare people into their mentality and the keeping of the status quo, which is not working:

One more link:

Republican Go Back to Old Playbook with Anti-Health Care Reform Charts | The Stimulist
Click to expand...
Ummm....none of those links claim there's anything untrue in the chart. In fact, Ezra Klein seemed to poo-poo the chart:
Which leaves this chart in a bit of a weird position: Those who don't read it won't be able to understand it. And those who do read it won't be scared by it. All in all, a less than intimidating outing from the minority leader's office.
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Ezra Klein's assessment of the chart indicates the chart is accurate (and therefore honest), and thus his article proves my statement and discredits yours.

Remember, this is the statement of mine you are attempting (and thus far failing) to rebut:
celticlord said:
There were no lies in that chart. If there were lies, you would be pointing them out, not attempting to shoot the messenger.
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Back to you. Where are are the lies?
 
PeteEU said:
What good? Can you even name anything good the last decade?
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The Dept of Homeland Security comes to mind immediately. Deep tax cuts. Expanding our role in the AIDS crisis in Africa. Should I keep going?
 
WillRockwell said:
So you don't care if Congressmen send out lies using taxpayer money as long as they are Republicans? Here is what they wanted to send out, a fictitious "chart" supposedly representing the "Democratic health care plan". It's all made up, of course, and if the Republicans had been allowed to send it out, taxpayers would have paid for it.

chart.jpg
Click to expand...

So what you're saying is that the GOP has to have their mail checked by their masters before is can be allowed out the door.

Does your demand remind you of any special kinds of recurrent oppressive (ie, liberal) societies most notable for driving the history of the Twentieth Century?
 
celticlord said:
Ummm....none of those links claim there's anything untrue in the chart. In fact, Ezra Klein seemed to poo-poo the chart:
Ezra Klein's assessment of the chart indicates the chart is accurate (and therefore honest), and thus his article proves my statement and discredits yours.

Remember, this is the statement of mine you are attempting (and thus far failing) to rebut:

Back to you. Where are are the lies?
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Did you read Freethinker's post or just skip it cuz it made sense? The fact is, the chart doesn't represent any bill that is completed on the floor. how can they make a chart of a health care plan that doesn't exist as a completed plan? Only pieces of the plan are passed and only in one part of the Congress. It's all a lie because what they are charting doesn't exist as a comprehensive, in tact bill let alone the ideas that are not represented in the chart that are up for discussion.
 
jallman said:
The Dept of Homeland Security comes to mind immediately.
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Department of Homeland Security is an epic example of government waste. This is a department that should be dismantled and the duties handed back over to the CIA and the FBI which in fact did the job quite well since there creation. What purpose does homeland security serve that the FBI nor CIA could do as they have done before?

jallman said:
Deep tax cuts.
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Yes, adding TRILLIONS of dollars to the national debt is a good thing. So much for fiscal conservation.

jallman said:
Expanding our role in the AIDS crisis in Africa
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Yes, all hail the expanding policies of interventionism. We should have put that money to use right here in the US we have our own citizens dying of AIDS. Screw these other countries AMERICANS FIRST.

Please do keep going, this should be interesting.
 
celticlord said:
There were no lies in that chart. If there were lies, you would be pointing them out, not attempting to shoot the messenger.
Click to expand...

we're not "pointing them out" because we don't understand the graph, we're not supposed to. That's the point.
 
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