• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

UK cuts Israel weapons contracts

tlmorg02 said:
Play nice fellas!;)
Click to expand...

I'm not really going to play at all. I find these threads don't allow meaningful discussion. If you take any side other then a pro Israel side, you are called a bigot.

I just threw out the fact that the reformation of Israel was born out of propaganda.
 
Apocalypse said:
And that, folks, is how a propaganda looks like. ;)
Click to expand...

How exactly is it propaganda? In hindsight, it does seem like a measurable reality that the creation of Israel has caused more damage than good.
 
ARealConservative said:
I'm not really going to play at all. I find these threads don't allow meaningful discussion. If you take any side other then a pro Israel side, you are called a bigot.

I just threw out the fact that the reformation of Israel was born out of propaganda.
Click to expand...

I haven't been called bigot .... yet and i am far from the pro israel team.

The state of Israel came about because of many factors. Britain played a role as did the UN and we'd be lying if we said the Holocaust did not contribute
 
ARealConservative said:
I'm not really going to play at all. I find these threads don't allow meaningful discussion. If you take any side other then a pro Israel side, you are called a bigot.

I just threw out the fact that the reformation of Israel was born out of propaganda.
Click to expand...

I do not think you are a bigot at all. I agree that Israel was born of propaganda because Europe, nor the U.S. wanted to house those displaced after the war due to their own racism. I do feel that they deserve a home without constant threat of destruction, and it happens to currently be in Israel. But if you wish to explore the propaganda of the creation, feel free sir.
 
Ikari said:
How exactly is it propaganda? In hindsight, it does seem like a measurable reality that the creation of Israel has caused more damage than good.
Click to expand...
It shapes reality in a false way and then used as a support for one of the sides in the argument.
It's pure propaganda.
 
Laila said:
I haven't been called bigot .... yet and i am far from the pro israel team.

The state of Israel came about because of many factors. Britain played a role as did the UN and we'd be lying if we said the Holocaust did not contribute
Click to expand...

K, but there were more than Jews killed by Hitler in the holocaust. He went after several ethnic groups, near wiped some out right? So if the Holocaust was a contributing factor, how come it didn't also spawn arguments for countries for the other ethnic groups who were systematically hunted down and killed?

In the end, what's done is done and Israel now exists and people need to get over it an acknowledge that. But at the same accord, I don't think we need to blindly support Israel just because it's Israel. It does seem that often times critique against Israel is met with accusations of bigotry or other nonsense. It may not be all the time, but it does seem to happen in general (not localized to this board).
 
Last edited:
Apocalypse said:
It shapes reality in a false way and then used as a support for one of the sides in the argument.
It's pure propaganda.
Click to expand...

So measured reality shapes reality in a false way? Interesting definition.
 
Ikari said:
So measured reality shapes reality in a false way? Interesting definition.
Click to expand...
No, propagandist claims shape reality in a false way.
 
tlmorg02 said:
I do not think you are a bigot at all. I agree that Israel was born of propaganda because Europe, nor the U.S. wanted to house those displaced after the war due to their own racism. I do feel that they deserve a home without constant threat of destruction, and it happens to currently be in Israel. But if you wish to explore the propaganda of the creation, feel free sir.
Click to expand...

The site chosen was the worst possible site if the end game was to create a safe haven. That was just propaganda, the plan was always to reoccupy the holy land regardless of risk factors associated with life there.
 
Ikari said:
K, but there were more than Jews killed by Hitler in the holocaust. He went after several ethnic groups, near wiped some out right? So if the Holocaust was a contributing factor, how come it didn't also spawn arguments for countries for the other ethnic groups who were systematically hunted down and killed?
Click to expand...

Right.
I think because the media played it up, they were highlighted not the gypsies who i also think deserve a country as much as Jews and Europe did not want to take them in still so supported the idea of a Jewish state

And guilt played a massive role and some can argue still does.
It was a collective thing Europeans and indeed the rest of the world felt.
 
ARealConservative said:
The site chosen was the worst possible site if the end game was to create a safe haven. That was just propaganda, the plan was always to reoccupy the holy land regardless of risk factors associated with life there.
Click to expand...

Was it "marketed" as a safe haven, or just the biblical "promised land" of the Israeli's? I have never heard it referred to in any historical text as a safe haven.
 
Apocalypse said:
No, propagandist claims shape reality in a false way.
Click to expand...

And yet measured reality does indicate that in hindsight we have caused more conflict than we have solved by the creation of Israel in the place where it currently is located. So I asked, how that was propaganda. Or even the fact that Israel's base creation was based off of propaganda after WW II. That is also measured reality.
 
Laila said:
Right.
I think because the media played it up, they were highlighted not the gypsies who i also think deserve a country as much as Jews and Europe did not want to take them in still so supported the idea of a Jewish state

And guilt played a massive role and some can argue still does.
It was a collective thing Europeans and indeed the rest of the world felt.
Click to expand...

Guilt for what? We didn't do anything. And if it were collective guilt, again why only the Jews? There are just as oppressed ethnicities out there too, why didn't we feel "guilt" for them too? In the end, I don't think any of it is really cause for a creation of a State in hostile lands. I mean, we can't change the past, but if you were to objectively look at it one couldn't help but question the decision.
 
Ikari said:
In the end, what's done is done and Israel now exists and people need to get over it an acknowledge that. But at the same accord, I don't think we need to blindly support Israel just because it's Israel. It does seem that often times critique against Israel is met with accusations of bigotry or other nonsense. It may not be all the time, but it does seem to happen in general (not localized to this board).
Click to expand...
No country needs to be blindly supported, and Israel is not blindly supported.
 
Laila said:
There is little evidence that british weapons was used apart form the say so of Amenesty International
It seems it may be occuring because of this.
BBC NEWS | UK | UK sued over Israeli arms sales

I was critical of Gaza and Israel's actions but not because of the principal that Israel had the right to protect one self but because i got the feeling that the siege occured for no good reason outside of political gain. It did not manage to achieve the end it wished, remove Hamas or stop rockets. They continued falling and the death toll seemed too one sided.

Maybe it is just me who is concerned we are bowing to pressure groups at the drop of a hat.
If Israel says it did not use it, take its word for it unless there is undeniable evidence that it did use it.
Click to expand...

Well according to the article the Isrealis havent dennied that they used our weapons in Gaza, they denny that they commited any war crimes. As the article said the FCO conducted a review before making this decision so its not as if they are just following amnesty unthinkingly. Either way I think its fair to say an organisation with a £2.1 billion budget with one of the worlds best intelligence agencys under its command would have a pretty good idea of whats going on. And again why is AI such an untrustworthy source?
 
Ikari said:
And yet measured reality does indicate that in hindsight we have caused more conflict than we have solved by the creation of Israel in the place where it currently is located. So I asked, how that was propaganda. Or even the fact that Israel's base creation was based off of propaganda after WW II. That is also measured reality.
Click to expand...
It can only be called as propaganda if one doesn't believe the holocaust existed, otherwise it's just cause and effect.
And besides, the Zionist movement existed and acted towards the creation of the Jewish homeland in Israel since the 19th century.
 
Ikari said:
I will wholeheartedly disagree with that statement.
Click to expand...
And I will wholeheartedly disagree with your wholehearted disagreement.
 
tlmorg02 said:
Was it "marketed" as a safe haven, or just the biblical "promised land" of the Israeli's? I have never heard it referred to in any historical text as a safe haven.
Click to expand...

I believe it was marketed as a safe haven. That is certainly a reason given by Truman when officially recognizing their formation.
 
ARealConservative said:
I believe it was marketed as a safe haven. That is certainly a reason given by Truman when officially recognizing their formation.
Click to expand...
Ahh.. no.
It was 'marketed' as the historic homeland of the Jewish people.
 
Apocalypse said:
It can only be called as propaganda if one doesn't believe the holocaust existed, otherwise it's just cause and effect.
And besides, the Zionist movement existed and acted towards the creation of the Jewish homeland in Israel since the 19th century.
Click to expand...

The Jews were not the only people persecuted in the Holocaust. They were not the only ethnic group rounded up and executed. In fact, other groups were driven to near extinction during it. Propaganda comes in for the fact that it was only the Jews for which arguments for a homeland were made. And I don't find the holocaust to be justifiable reason for the creation of a new country in hostile lands. So there was propaganda for the creation of Israel, if not then it would have been all or nothing. Other groups would have gotten homelands, or no one would have gotten homelands. But your statement seems to be in complete ignorance over the fact that Nazi Germany did not just go after the Jews. You make it seem like it was just the Jews. If you want to claim cause and effect from the holocaust that is.

Who's using propaganda to redefine reality now?
 
Apocalypse said:
And I will wholeheartedly disagree with your wholehearted disagreement.
Click to expand...

This thread itself supports my claim. Britain pulls out its weapons contract and all of a sudden, they're caving into the "other side" or whatever else you want to call it. All because they aren't going to support Israel militarily, or at least sell them guns. You people were all over them for doing so, despite that it's their right and they didn't do it for no reason. You're just a biased source in the end, and you don't seem to care about ignoring parts of history or even the present to make your point.
 
Apocalypse said:
It can only be called as propaganda if one doesn't believe the holocaust existed, otherwise it's just cause and effect.
And besides, the Zionist movement existed and acted towards the creation of the Jewish homeland in Israel since the 19th century.
Click to expand...

Theodor Herzl wrote of using antisemitism as a propaganda weapon in the creation of a jewish state - so even before the holocaust, Israel was marketed as a safe haven.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom