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UK cuts Israel weapons contracts

Ikari said:
The Jews were not the only people persecuted in the Holocaust. They were not the only ethnic group rounded up and executed.
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No they were not, and nobody claims that they were.
In fact, I will argue that you are trying to falsify it as if Jews claim that they were the only people who were murdered in the Holocaust by raising this claim.

The Jews, however, suffered the highest amount of casualties from the holocaust, with over 6 million Jews dead.
The second group in its size were the Slavs, who've suffered 4.9 million less casualties than the Jews have, which brings it to 1.1 million.
The Slavs have already had their country, so obviously you didn't mean to them.
The rest of the groups do not get even close to 1 million casualties.

Propaganda comes in for the fact that it was only the Jews for which arguments for a homeland were made.
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How is that propaganda?
So because the Jews are the only ones who took manners to hands it is called Propaganda?
Do you listen to yourself sometimes?
You obviously just claimed that because other groups who suffered from the holocaust didn't work towards independence, it means that the Jews' partook in propaganda.
This is absolutely bizarre and by no means acceptable.
And I don't find the holocaust to be justifiable reason for the creation of a new country in hostile lands.
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Are you trying to imply it was the only reason?
Are you trying to imply that the Jews based their claim for the land solely on the Holocaust?
Other groups would have gotten homelands, or no one would have gotten homelands.
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Again you claim that if other groups didn't work towards their own homelands it means that the Jews partook in propaganda.
This would only make the slightest bit of sense if it wasn't the Jews but the international community who'd work towards the Jews' independence.
By saying that you would actually bring into question the reason for them to aid the Jews alone in their work towards an homeland, while not aiding the rest of the groups.
Obviously, that is not what happened, the Jews weren't helped by the international community and did everything on their own, moving from an empire to an empire, asking for permission and being refused.
But your statement seems to be in complete ignorance over the fact that Nazi Germany did not just go after the Jews.
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Nazi Germany did not just go after the Jews.
This statement coming from me just canceled and obliterated your claim. :2wave:
You make it seem like it was just the Jews. If you want to claim cause and effect from the holocaust that is.
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How so?
The holocaust is one of the causes, a minor cause if I may add, but one of the causes.
And it had an effect.
I simply stated a fact.
Who's using propaganda to redefine reality now?
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The one who's uneducated on the subjects he debates on in an astonishing way.
 
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ARealConservative said:
Theodor Herzl wrote of using antisemitism as a propaganda weapon in the creation of a jewish state - so even before the holocaust, Israel was marketed as a safe haven.
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No he has not.
 
Ikari said:
This thread itself supports my claim. Britain pulls out its weapons contract and all of a sudden, they're caving into the "other side" or whatever else you want to call it. All because they aren't going to support Israel militarily, or at least sell them guns. You people were all over them for doing so, despite that it's their right and they didn't do it for no reason. You're just a biased source in the end, and you don't seem to care about ignoring parts of history or even the present to make your point.
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The heck you're talking about.
All I did in this thread was showing disappointment in the way Britain succumbs to propaganda.
I did not make an enemy out of them or anything like that.
You should watch carefully what letters you type on when you let your hands fall on the keyboard like that.
 
Apocalypse said:
The one who's uneducated on the subjects he debates on in an astonishing way.
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Which appears to be you.

You did not say "a reason". You claimed that someone couldn't call it propaganda unless they didn't believe the holocaust happened, otherwise it's cause and effect. Your words. Now, what does that mean? You said the Holocaust is cause and effect to the creation of Israel. YOU SAID THAT. So let's see who is uneducated. What is cause and effect? One choice or action which directly leads to an outcome of events. You claimed the holocaust as cause and effect, not that it's one of the causes not that it's a contributing cause, but that it is the full cause and effect. If it's cause and effect, then there is no reason why the other ethnic groups didn't get their homes either. Your own words overlook all the other ethnic groups which were abused and driven to near extinction since you claimed cause and effect. Your words, not mine.

Only later when it was pointed out and you had to engage in hyperbole and spin against me did you claim the holocaust was just a factor, and then you went on to say a small factor at that. Which is contradictory to your original post when you claimed it as cause and effect. If it is only a small factor, then one can definitely call the use of the holocaust as reason to create Israel propaganda because at that point, the holocaust isn't a cause for the creation of and arguments which employ the holocaust as reasoning for the creation of Israel are nothing more than propaganda based on appeal to emotion.

You can't have this both ways. You're changing definitions every post to try to keep up with your continued spinning of arguments. It's not my fault you're having a hard time keeping up with your own hyperbole and spin.
 
Ikari said:
The Jews were not the only people persecuted in the Holocaust. They were not the only ethnic group rounded up and executed. In fact, other groups were driven to near extinction during it. Propaganda comes in for the fact that it was only the Jews for which arguments for a homeland were made. And I don't find the holocaust to be justifiable reason for the creation of a new country in hostile lands. So there was propaganda for the creation of Israel, if not then it would have been all or nothing. Other groups would have gotten homelands, or no one would have gotten homelands.
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The difference being, that the other ethnic groups--Romanis, Slavs, Pols--were already in their ethnic homelands. There was nowhere for a homeland to be stablished for them, beause they were already there. Why would you send the Pols anywhere, but Poland?
 
Apocalypse said:
You should watch carefully what letters you type on when you let your hands fall on the keyboard like that.
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Irony? I think so.

BTW, it wasn't merely pointed at you, but rather the whole thread. My post said that, you just found it convenient to ignore that (that, or reading comprehension isn't your strong suit). In which people have critiqued the British government for withdrawing their weapons contract based on evidence and reports that the Israeli army may not be using them as specified. All of a sudden, it's "giving into propaganda" or whatever. Britain didn't just go along with whatever Israel wanted, and now people have jumped on them for not following Israel. It's their weapons, their choice. But when people start talking against Israel or critiquing them in anyway, there are a good group of people who get hopping mad and have to start ranting about crap. No one is innocent in the Israel/Palestine conflict, maybe Britain just awoke to that fact.
 
apdst said:
The difference being, that the other ethnic groups--Romanis, Slavs, Pols--were already in their ethnic homelands. There was nowhere for a homeland to be stablished for them, beause they were already there. Why would you send the Pols anywhere, but Poland?
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the word homeland creeps me out anyway. I picture a bunch of people from Stormfront whenever I hear the term.
 
Ikari said:
You can't have this both ways. You're changing definitions every post to try to keep up with your continued spinning of arguments. It's not my fault you're having a hard time keeping up with your own hyperbole and spin.
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No, I'm not changing definitions.
You clearly cannot follow the arguments as you do not possess any kind of knowledge on the issue.
I don't see why you would be so sensitive to this, it's not like I get hurt when someone says that I have no idea about African elephants, that is true, I really don't.
 
Ikari said:
You said the Holocaust is cause and effect to the creation of Israel. YOU SAID THAT.
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I wish to devote a whole post to this quote.
Please, Ikari, explain to me how the holocaust can be both the cause and the effect to the creation of Israel.
I said that it was the cause, not the effect.
Clearly the effect was the creation of Israel.
How can the holocaust be both the cause and the effect to the creation of Israel?
Wouldn't Israel need to be the effect?
Is that not wrong?

My words also do not neglect that there are other causes as well, and bigger causes too.
You are engaged in a ridiculous try to debunk my words while only saying silly and weird stuff in the process.
Why do you keep debating on an issue you have no understanding of?
What is it that drives you to do that?
I know that they always tell if you don't ask you won't know, but this is just too much.
 
Gardener said:
There is tolerance and there is cultural self-hatred, and often times the latter masquerades as the former.

Until people learn to use a little reason in regards to WHAT they tolerate, they aren't really fostering tolerance at all, and make that double for those who have been hoodwinked into viewing their own western liberal culture as somehow inferior to those stuck in the stone age.
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Well i guess the question here is whether unconditional support of Isreal is condusive to liberal culture. I wouldnt regard their reckless disregard for civillian casualties as being condusive to this nor would I regard tolerating the current loss of palestinian land to the separation wall as being particually liberal.

Not to mention that the Brittish empire was one of the most iliberal insitutions the world has ever seen:doh
 
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Ikari said:
Seems to be about the only way you can handle debate.
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There are many ways I can handle a debate.
Trust me, you do not want to experience those ways.
 
Apocalypse said:
I wish to devote a whole post to this quote.
Please, Ikari, explain to me how the holocaust can be both the cause and the effect to the creation of Israel.
I said that it was the cause, not the effect.
Clearly the effect was the creation of Israel.
How can the holocaust be both the cause and the effect to the creation of Israel?
Wouldn't Israel need to be the effect?
Is that not wrong?

My words also do not neglect that there are other causes as well, and bigger causes too.
You are engaged in a ridiculous try to debunk my words while only saying silly and weird stuff in the process.
Why do you keep debating on an issue you have no understanding of?
What is it that drives you to do that?
I know that they always tell if you don't ask you won't know, but this is just too much.
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Quit being daft. This is nothing more than deflect. You called the holocaust the cause to the creation of Israel. You said it, not me. Sorry that you can't defend against your claim, well actually you contradicted yourself later on.

You said the holocaust and Israel are cause and effect. Sorry, I didn't completely spell it out for you each and every time, and condensed it into cause and effect. I thought you were smart enough to have figured it out, I was wrong. Sorry, I'll keep in mind the fact that I have to hold your hand for debates. Still, the point remains. Your original post which I quoted, you did not state the Holocaust as part of the cause to Israel's creation. In fact, if you read my post (which you don't, you just pick out one line), you'll see the cause and effect laid out, so it was actually defined in text. YOU just didn't want to read it, or you ignored it, or you didn't understand it. I don't know where your failings on the issue come from, but it was all there.

The original point stands, you called the Holocaust the cause to the effect of Israel's creation (better, am I holding your hand well enough? Did you understand that? The words weren't too big for you, were they? Certainly wouldn't want you to get lost...AGAIN). I pointed out that it wasn't the whole cause. Then you went off on a rant, but everything I commented on was based on YOUR POST. So maybe before you start pointing fingers at people, you should take the time to reread what YOU wrote.
 
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Apocalypse said:
There are many ways I can handle a debate.
Trust me, you do not want to experience those ways.
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If they are even more ignorant than the path in which you currently tread, you are correct in your assertion.
 
Ikari said:
Quit being daft. This is nothing more than deflect. You called the holocaust the cause to the creation of Israel. You said it, not me. Sorry that you can't defend against your claim, well actually you contradicted yourself later on.
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Blah blah blah, I'm Ikari and I say silly stuff dahhhh.
Now that would be being daft.
I challenge you to show where did I call the holocaust the cause for the creation of Israel.
With an emphasize on the word 'THE', as I clearly stated that it is 'a' cause.
 
Moderator's Warning:
General Warning - Stop the baiting and innuendo.
 
Apocalypse said:
Blah blah blah, I'm Ikari and I say silly stuff dahhhh.
Now that would be being daft.
I challenge you to show where did I call the holocaust the cause for the creation of Israel.
With an emphasize on the word 'THE', as I clearly stated that it is 'a' cause.
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"blah blah blah, let me play the rhetoric game"

Apocalypse said:
It can only be called as propaganda if one doesn't believe the holocaust existed, otherwise it's just cause and effect.
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You did not say "a" cause, you directly linked the holocaust as the cause to the effect of the creation of Israel. It wasn't till later, when I called you out on this statement, that you switched to saying it was "a" cause. But there was no "a" cause here, merely cause and effect. Your words. No one can claim propaganda into the arguments for the creation of Israel unless they think the holocaust doesn't answer, otherwise it's cause and effect. Your words. This sentence means that the holocaust is cause to the creation of Israel; that's that. That's exactly what the sentence means. Because if the holocaust isn't the FULL cause to the effect (like how I'm holding your hand, I'm learning to help ya out...you're welcome), then it can in fact be propaganda. Because the use of the holocaust in the arguments for the creation of Israel could at that point be an appeal to emotion. Which is one basis by which you can build a propaganda argument. So something in your arguments is wrong. Later, you corrected this and said that the holocaust was one of the reasons behind it, even calling it a small reason. But this original statement did not have that distinction, and in fact you were making links to it as to describe it as the full cause. If not, then propaganda can exist to push for the creation of Israel imploying the holocaust as part of the argument. If it's cause and effect, that statement implies full cause and effect that is that because the holocaust happened, the State of Israel rightfully came into being (and beyond that, even if the holocaust were somehow the full cause, I don't buy the argument. There are lots of lands historically owned by other groups of people who lost them, and we don't push for those to be returned either. I for one know that the American Indians are just screwed, sorry Charlie but they don't get their land back, just because you owned it at one time doesn't mean you have rightful claim to it today).

Done and done. Sorry you weren't careful enough in what you wrote down. I'll keep in mind that you don't find the holocaust full cause to the effect of Israel's creation in the future, even if you do misspeak again. Just another way I'm willing to help you out. Now if you have rebuttal, you may PM me and we can handle it that way.


[edit]I was in process of writing this when the mod posted warning, this is now dropped from public forum, sorry[/edit]
 
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Ikari said:
You did not say "a" cause, you directly linked the holocaust as the cause to the effect of the creation of Israel. It wasn't till later, when I called you out on this statement, that you switched to saying it was "a" cause. But there was no "a" cause here, merely cause and effect. Your words. No one can claim propaganda into the arguments for the creation of Israel unless they think the holocaust doesn't answer, otherwise it's cause and effect. Your words. This sentence means that the holocaust is cause to the creation of Israel; that's that. That's exactly what the sentence means. Because if the holocaust isn't the FULL cause to the effect (like how I'm holding your hand, I'm learning to help ya out...you're welcome), then it can in fact be propaganda. Because the use of the holocaust in the arguments for the creation of Israel could at that point be an appeal to emotion. Which is one basis by which you can build a propaganda argument. So something in your arguments is wrong. Later, you corrected this and said that the holocaust was one of the reasons behind it, even calling it a small reason. But this original statement did not have that distinction, and in fact you were making links to it as to describe it as the full cause. If not, then propaganda can exist to push for the creation of Israel imploying the holocaust as part of the argument. If it's cause and effect, that statement implies full cause and effect that is that because the holocaust happened, the State of Israel rightfully came into being (and beyond that, even if the holocaust were somehow the full cause, I don't buy the argument. There are lots of lands historically owned by other groups of people who lost them, and we don't push for those to be returned either. I for one know that the American Indians are just screwed, sorry Charlie but they don't get their land back, just because you owned it at one time doesn't mean you have rightful claim to it today).
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I'm sorry if I misled you, but when one is saying the term cause and effect it doesn't mean that it is the only cause, but might as well be just one of the causes.

For example, Ikari being sick and Ikari not willing to go to work is the cause and effect, but Ikari might as well not like someone from his work.
Ikari not liking someone from his work and Ikari not willing to go to work is cause and effect.
See how that works out?

Done and done. Sorry you weren't careful enough in what you wrote down. I'll keep in mind that you don't find the holocaust full cause to the effect of Israel's creation in the future, even if you do misspeak again. Just another way I'm willing to help you out.
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Why gee, thanks Ikari.
In return, I'll show my own sign of good will and won't hold you for all the wrong things that you said in this thread.

I was in process of writing this when the mod posted warning, this is now dropped from public forum, sorry
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To the PM then.
 
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