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Robert McNamara, ex-defense secretary, dies

Laila, et al, I high suggest watching "The Fog of War," the doc that was linked on page one of this thread. If some are going to argue Vietnam in this thread, wouldn't it be more on topic to address McNamara's perspective on the mistakes that he made? It's a very good and enlightening movie, so watch.

**edited to add that the link is not the complete movie. If anyone can find it, please post it in this thread.
 
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Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies

I cannot defend the politics of the Vietnam War and why we got involved in the first place. I never agreed with it and when I was of draft age, even contemplated hiding out in Canada; my dilemma being that my father served there for a year and was a lifer in the Army. Vietnam was a pimple on China's ass as far as I was concerned.

All I am saying is that I would rather prop up/support a Capitalist dictator over a Communist one if those are the ONLY choices which it was in many instances during the Cold War.

It is very convenient to look back and second guess US actions abroad and in Latin America in the aftermath of the implosion of the Soviet Union. But during those years, there truly was an effort by the Soviet Union to dominate Europe, Asia, the Middle East and Latin America and an effort to support Communist thugs even if it meant through use of force.

We see how well that worked for Cuba. So to look back now and re-think the policies is a moot issue; what is more important in my mind is the loss of credibility and perceptions of our weakness when we back down and do not honor our agreements with former allies and allow them to become overrun by Communist forces who have no compunction breaking all their agreements in order to promote their ideology and take over those who do not agree with it.

I believe this contributes to the notions and perceptions of thugs like Bin Laden stating that all they need to do is kill enough of us and we will back down and results in attacks like 9-11. When terrorists, dictators, despots and communist thugs perceive you are weak, they will always attempt to take advantage of it.

You would think that in the aftermath of a catastrophe of a global WWII we would have learned that lesson by now.

I would disbute that the Soviet Union ever wanted to take over the world. It was more concerned with maintaining hemogency over its borders then anything else. It gave aid to the Afgan monarchy and refused to assist in overthrowing the Shah of Iran [whom they even gave weapons/aid to at one stage] as they feared it would damage their entente with the West. The whole idea of exporting revolution across the world died with Lennin.

As regards Robert McNamara the one thing you can say to his credit is that he showed a degree of repetance and recognition of how non-sensical much of the cold war was [and as Middleground said it his perspective shreads alot of light on the Vietnam war] Have a look at

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzKJ19P2jA0&feature=related"]YouTube - The For of War (Part 9)[/ame]
 
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Will try and watch it as soon as i have some time :)
 
BTW, here are R.S. McNamara's eleven life lessons, featured in the movie:

1-Empathize with your enemy
2-Rationality will not save us
3-There's something beyond one's self
4-Maximize efficiency
5-Proportionality should be a guideline in war
6-Get the data
7-Belief and seeing are often both wrong
8-Be prepared to reexamine your reasoning
9-In order to do good, you may have to engage in evil
10-Never say never
11-You can't change human nature
 
Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies

What I dont see is how Diem was worth defending. By defending South Vietnam America was fighting for the preservation of a capitalist dictatorship.

The Communists slaughtered millions of people after the US left Southeast Asia. It wasn't that Diem was worth defending, as much as it was that Communism was worth defeating.
 
Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies

The Communists slaughtered millions of people after the US left Southeast Asia. It wasn't that Diem was worth defending, as much as it was that Communism was worth defeating.

Well if your talking about Pol Pot then that makes little sence as he wasnt communist or even Starlinist and it was North Vietnam that removed him from power. If your refering to the fall of South Vietnam then im sure it was very bloody but how does it compare to the amount of people killed before hand?
 
Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies

Well ive never been a huge fan of the soviet bloc if thats what you mean, but captalist dictators were no better. Look at how many died during the dirty war operation Condor etc, not to mention how many Diem killed off.

I was never aware that Diem conducted any mass killings.

As regards Cambodia are you refering to Pol Pot or the North vietnamise invasion of Cambodia [which removed Pol Pot]?

Cambodia was a double edged sword. While it's true that Vietnam removed Pol Pot, the Vietnamese also committed atrocities after the kicked Pol Pot out.

Still as regards vietnam i was talking more about the different outcomes. Todays outcome is that Vietnam is a state capatilist dictatorship, a similar outcome would have been brought about by Diem so why would it have been worth wasting so many more lives defending him?

There's no way to really say that Diem's Vietnam would resemble Communist Vietnam.
 
Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies

Well if your talking about Pol Pot then that makes little sence as he wasnt communist or even Starlinist and it was North Vietnam that removed him from power. If your refering to the fall of South Vietnam then im sure it was very bloody but how does it compare to the amount of people killed before hand?

The Communists in Laos and Vietnam went on killing sprees on the same scale as Pol Pot after the US left Vietnam.

The Khmer Rouge raided into Vietnam and the Vietnamese Army raided into Cambodia, until finally over-running the country and installing their own government. The Vietnamese Army is responsible for killing thousands in the Khmer region of Cambodia, plus Hmong tribesmen all over Vietnam and Cambodia.
 
Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies

I was never aware that Diem conducted any mass killings.



Cambodia was a double edged sword. While it's true that Vietnam removed Pol Pot, the Vietnamese also committed atrocities after the kicked Pol Pot out.



There's no way to really say that Diem's Vietnam would resemble Communist Vietnam.

Well according to wikipedia "Tortures and killings of "communist suspects" were committed on a daily basis. The death toll was put at around 50,000 with 75,000 imprisonments, and Diem's effort extended beyond communists to anti-communist dissidents and anti-corruption whistleblowers."

Ngo Dinh Diem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Its fair to say that Diems rule would have been capatalist and despotic as it always had been. Vietnam today is also capatalist and is also despotic. Not much difference.
 
Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies

Well according to wikipedia "Tortures and killings of "communist suspects" were committed on a daily basis. The death toll was put at around 50,000 with 75,000 imprisonments, and Diem's effort extended beyond communists to anti-communist dissidents and anti-corruption whistleblowers."

Ngo Dinh Diem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Its fair to say that Diems rule would have been capatalist and despotic as it always had been. Vietnam today is also capatalist and is also despotic. Not much difference.

I knew he killed off a bunch of Communists. I thought you were talking about the killing off of politicians, doctors, teachers and artists like what the Communists did. There's a big difference between what Diem did and what the Communists did.
 
Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies

I knew he killed off a bunch of Communists. I thought you were talking about the killing off of politicians, doctors, teachers and artists like what the Communists did. There's a big difference between what Diem did and what the Communists did.

Sure but the killings extended beyond "Communists" to those expressing legitimate dissent. [as the article explains] and the killing of random doctors and teachers was more of a Khmer Rouge thing. And like i say this needs to be put in perspective with the amount of people killed during the war
 
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Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies

The Communists slaughtered millions of people after the US left Southeast Asia. It wasn't that Diem was worth defending, as much as it was that Communism was worth defeating.
Are we having to argue Vietnam all over again? All because McNamara died. :roll:
 
Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies

Sure but the killings extended beyond "Communists" to those expressing legitimate dissent. [as the article explains] and the killing of random doctors and teachers was more of a Khmer Rouge thing. And like i say this needs to be put in perspective with the amount of people killed during the war

I don't know where this conversation really began but... Diem certainly was not a good leader. He persecuted Buddhists and was a nepotist, trying to make his family some kind of aristocracy. He dismissed and demoted any able commanders, fearing they could threaten his place of power...And for those reasons, and many more, we supported a coup d'eat to remove him.

I don't really get what your trying to imply by pointing out his terrible and wannabe authoritarian leadership.
 
Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies

Are we having to argue Vietnam all over again? All because McNamara died. :roll:

We argue Vietnam "all over again" because many people have the wrong idea about it.

"No event in American history is more misunderstood than the Vietnam War. It was misreported then, and it is misremembered now." Richard M. Nixon

:roll:
 
Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies

I don't know where this conversation really began but... Diem certainly was not a good leader. He persecuted Buddhists and was a nepotist, trying to make his family some kind of aristocracy. He dismissed and demoted any able commanders, fearing they could threaten his place of power...And for those reasons, and many more, we supported a coup d'eat to remove him.

I don't really get what your trying to imply by pointing out his terrible and wannabe authoritarian leadership.

Thats understandable:lol: I was asking why Diem was worth defending in responce to TD complaining that the U.S abandoned South Vietnam. I found this odd given that vietnam ended up with a capatalist dictatorship anyway without the loss of life that continuing to back South Vietnam would have entailed.
 
Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies

Sure but the killings extended beyond "Communists" to those expressing legitimate dissent. [as the article explains] and the killing of random doctors and teachers was more of a Khmer Rouge thing. And like i say this needs to be put in perspective with the amount of people killed during the war

It wasn't just the Khmer Rouge. The North Vietnamese Communists killed thousands of people during the Tet Offensive and ever more in 1975 when South Vietnam fell.

Are we having to argue Vietnam all over again? All because McNamara died. :roll:

Sure, why not? Interesting history. Isn't it? I would wager that a few people that have been monitoring this thread have learned quiet a bit about that period. More than they learned in their revisionist history classes in school, to be sure. It was in junior high that I fell in love with history. In the process of writing a report for class I found out that most of what was in my 7th grade history text book was either bee-ess, or only told half the story. Needless to say, I pissed off several history teachers when I called shanannigans in the middle of class.
 
Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies

Thats understandable:lol: I was asking why Diem was worth defending in responce to TD complaining that the U.S abandoned South Vietnam. I found this odd given that vietnam ended up with a capatalist dictatorship anyway without the loss of life that continuing to back South Vietnam would have entailed.

Your chronology isn't exactly accurate, American combat units didn't start showing up in Vietnam until after Diem was overhtrown.
 
Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies

It wasn't just the Khmer Rouge. The North Vietnamese Communists killed thousands of people during the Tet Offensive and ever more in 1975 when South Vietnam fell.

Sure but my question still stands.
 
Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies

Sure but my question still stands.


I've already answered your question. It wasn't about supporting Diem, or Thieu. It was about defeating Communism.
 
Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies

I've already answered your question. It wasn't about supporting Diem, or Thieu. It was about defeating Communism.

I was thinking more along the lines of number of people killed by the "communists" after the war vs number of people killed during the war.
 
Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies

I was thinking more along the lines of number of people killed by the "communists" after the war vs number of people killed during the war.

Well, the difference between the people killed by the Communists--no need for quotes, they're really Communists--and the people killed during the war, is that the people killed by the Communists after the war would have died, anyway.
 
Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies

I was thinking more along the lines of number of people killed by the "communists" after the war vs number of people killed during the war.

Ahh you do bring up good points then :lol:

But, keep in mind the huge paradox that would've occured if no American intervention had occured... Since that is such a huge thing to say, there is really no telling what would've occured otherwise except that the North Vietnamese would've been able to conquer the south much more easily and with much less casualities. The Chinese and Soviet Union would see American resolve as weak and would not be wary of their expansionist policies.
 
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