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Robert McNamara, ex-defense secretary, dies

Re: McNamara dies

So we lost.

Think of it this way, if two teams are playing hockey, and one team dominates the game but accidentally scores three own-goals, while only scoring two goals for their own team, they lose.

Dominating all game don't mean **** if the objective is lost.

A war isn't a hockey game and we didn't score any own goals.
 
Re: McNamara dies

mcnamara was a child prodigy, who subscribed to the belief in his greatness

he thought he could apply his "whiz kid" analytical approaches that he used at ford to create efficiencies in the military

he was very wrong about that, and later about our prospects for success in vietnam

he was the wrong fellow in the wrong job at the wrong time ... the blame most goes to the person who selected him for the position: JFK

later, mcnamara screwed up the world bank about like he did our defense department

he epitomized the saying that being smart is not enough

:applaud

I think that a lot of the problem was that McNamara - as well as most of the Pentagon - was thinking in terms of a traditional land war, like they'd fought in Europe and in Korea, and was unable and/or unwilling to face the reality of a guerrila-type war in the jungles of Southeast Asia.

However, the SecDef serves the POTUS, and if the war is going to be micro-managed from 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, then the SecDef either goes along with it, or resigns.

All I'll say about Robert McNamara is this - He and the "whiz kids" were supposed to have done one helluva job at Ford Motor before he came to Washington. Maybe he shoulda stayed at Ford...
 
Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies

So in essence, the enemy we lost to did more to stop down communism than we did by hitting Cambodia. :lol:

Also, did Laos not become a communist country after we lost Vietnam?

Seems to me the expansion, or stopping of the expansion, was not affected by our involvement.

How would you form that conclusion? The war in Vietnam was essentially a war in IndoChina, which consists of Laos, Cambodia, Vietnam... We knew that if Vietnam fell, the other two would likely follow suit.

But what we also believed was that without intervention, Communist expansion would continue into the Pacific Islands... Did that happen? NO. Why? I won't spell it out for you again... especially when your just laughing saying crap I already acknowledged. The mods always seem to be the most immature people on this site.
 
Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies

How would you form that conclusion? The war in Vietnam was essentially a war in IndoChina, which consists of Laos, Cambodia, Vietnam... We knew that if Vietnam fell, the other two would likely follow suit.

But what we also believed was that without intervention, Communist expansion would continue into the Pacific Islands... Did that happen? NO. Why? I won't spell it out for you again... especially when your just laughing saying crap I already acknowledged.

And I won't spell it out for you. Communist expansion continued AFTER the US lost the war. The goal of the war was to STOP communist expansion, not slow it down.

When we entered the war, the goal was to prevent North Vietnam form defeating South Vietnam. Since that goal was never attained, we can't change the goal posts and cal lit a victory because something we didn't know would happen, but feared might happen, didn't actually happen.


The mods always seem to be the most immature people on this site.

I have not once resorted to an insult while talking with you, but you resort to one while talking to me. What was that about maturity?

For the record, don't resort to such tactics again with me or there will be consequences. Consider that a warning.
 
Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies

So in essence, the enemy we lost to did more to stop down communism than we did by hitting Cambodia. :lol:

Also, did Laos not become a communist country after we lost Vietnam?

Seems to me the expansion, or stopping of the expansion, was not affected by our involvement.

Incorrect. The Communist enemy didn't halt Communist expansion in Southeast Asia.
 
Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies

And I won't spell it out for you. Communist expansion continued AFTER the US lost the war. The goal of the war was to STOP communist expansion, not slow it down.

When we entered the war, the goal was to prevent North Vietnam form defeating South Vietnam. Since that goal was never attained, we can't change the goal posts and cal lit a victory because something we didn't know would happen, but feared might happen, didn't actually happen.

Nazism didn't end with WW2. By your logic we lost WW2 as well.
 
Re: McNamara dies

Is Vietnam a communist regime?

Is the Nazi party re-gaining power in Germany? Did we lose WW2? Did we end Nazism, or just slow it down?
 
Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies

Nazism didn't end with WW2. By your logic we lost WW2 as well.

Clearly you missed my actual logic and have replaced it with this beautiful strawman.


Hmmm. Let me see... did Germany take over any countries or fight any other countries immediately after we finished fighting that war? No. No, they didn't. After we won that war we dictated the rules to them and they obeyed.

Did Japan? No. No, they didn't. After we won that war we dictated the rules to them and they obeyed.

Did Vietnam? Yes. Yes they did. And they didn't give a rats ass what we thought.

Do you see the difference yet?
 
Re: McNamara dies

Is the Nazi party re-gaining power in Germany? Did we lose WW2? Did we end Nazism, or just slow it down?


Hmmm... Let's play compare:

German Nazis after WWII = not in power anymore, tired for war crime

Vietcong after Vietnam = never lost power, never tried for war crimes

Do you see yet why your strawman fails?
 
Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies

Did Vietnam? Yes. Yes they did. And they didn't give a rats ass what we thought.


Um, no, Vietnam didn't takeover any other countries. And, yes, I still see your logic.
 
Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies

Vietnam was already lost in 1954, long before the war went hot. Vietnam had fought off the Japanese in 1945 and were ready to become independent, and then the French decided they wanted to recolonize the area. America sold out is values and backed French imperialism over its own democratic ideals. Then in 1954 after the French got stomped, we then decided to back a horrible dictator like Diem.

Ho Chi Mihn was a nationalist, and had no idealist embracing of communism. He even came to the U.S. in 1919 and asked Wilson to push for the freedom of his country. We made him an enemy by constantly supporting colonialism. He went to the communists because they would support him when we would not.

By 63, the odds were horribly stacked against the U.S. The government in Saigon was utterly unable to stand on its own. Even if we had won a military victory, it would not have been enough. Even a defeated NVA army would have been enough to smash the ARVN forces if we left. Unless we wanted to stay forever, south Vietnam was going to fall.
 
Re: McNamara dies

Hmmm... Let's play compare:

German Nazis after WWII = not in power anymore, tired for war crime

Vietcong after Vietnam = never lost power, never tried for war crimes

Do you see yet why your strawman fails?

Japan to date have never admitted to committing war crimes during WW2. Japanese vets say that American POW's got what they deserved.

Who is it that posting the strawman?
 
Re: McNamara dies

WW2 enabled the Communist takeover of Southeast Asia. Does that mean we lost WW2 based on that logic? If not for WW2, the colonial powers that were in SE Asia would have remained in power.
 
Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies

Ho Chi Mihn was a nationalist, and had no idealist embracing of communism. He even came to the U.S. in 1919 and asked Wilson to push for the freedom of his country. We made him an enemy by constantly supporting colonialism. He went to the communists because they would support him when we would not.

Very good point!
 
Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies

Vietnam was already lost in 1954, long before the war went hot. Vietnam had fought off the Japanese in 1945 and were ready to become independent, and then the French decided they wanted to recolonize the area. America sold out is values and backed French imperialism over its own democratic ideals. Then in 1954 after the French got stomped, we then decided to back a horrible dictator like Diem.

Ho Chi Mihn was a nationalist, and had no idealist embracing of communism. He even came to the U.S. in 1919 and asked Wilson to push for the freedom of his country. We made him an enemy by constantly supporting colonialism. He went to the communists because they would support him when we would not.

By 63, the odds were horribly stacked against the U.S. The government in Saigon was utterly unable to stand on its own. Even if we had won a military victory, it would not have been enough. Even a defeated NVA army would have been enough to smash the ARVN forces if we left. Unless we wanted to stay forever, south Vietnam was going to fall.

My recollectin was that Ho Chi Mihn was in thick with the REDS while that goat-teed little imp was in France. I could be wrong, I was wrong once that century !!
 
Re: McNamara dies

Your Kidding right you have no idea who he is. This explains allot about some of your post then.

Give her a break she is too young. She probably thinks that President Hoover founded the vacuum cleaner company instead of starting a depression LOL !!

PS YES I know that he did not start the depression he just made it wose !
 
Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies

And I won't spell it out for you. Communist expansion continued AFTER the US lost the war. The goal of the war was to STOP communist expansion, not slow it down.

When we entered the war, the goal was to prevent North Vietnam form defeating South Vietnam. Since that goal was never attained, we can't change the goal posts and cal lit a victory because something we didn't know would happen, but feared might happen, didn't actually happen.

No, that wasn't the goal -.- It's that simple... our goal was to try and stop the dominoes falling and continued Communist expansion to the east. Laos and Cambodia falling were directed consequences of Vietnam's fall... But, was there a successful Communist uprising in Malaysia, the Philipinnes, or Indonesia? The answer is no. The dominoes were stopped cold.

The goal was much broader than that. Your calling it a victory, I'm calling it a partial victory. There is a huge difference...

You see everything in black and white. The world is gray Tucker... gray.



I have not once resorted to an insult while talking with you, but you resort to one while talking to me. What was that about maturity?

For the record, don't resort to such tactics again with me or there will be consequences. Consider that a warning.


:rofl:rofl:rofl
woww... thanks for proving my point
 
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Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies

My recollectin was that Ho Chi Mihn was in thick with the REDS while that goat-teed little imp was in France. I could be wrong, I was wrong once that century !!

Even in '45, the OSS had given Ho chi Mihn support in his struggle against the Japanese. He had communist support, but he was a committed nationalist. He would have cheerfully become a capitalist if it meant independence for his country.

The entire cold war was pretty much a bunch of 3rd world nations pretending to support America/Soviet ideals in return for money and weapons. In truth, they cared nothing for which side they were on, only on what material goods they could get.
 
Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies

No, that wasn't the goal -.- It's that simple... our goal was to try and stop the dominoes falling and continued Communist expansion to the east. Laos and Cambodia falling were directed consequences of Vietnam's fall... But, was there a successful Communist uprising in Malaysia, the Philipinnes, or Indonesia? The answer is no. The dominoes were stopped cold.

The goal was much broader than that. Your calling it a victory, I'm calling it a partial victory. There is a huge difference...

You see everything in black and white. The world is gray Tucker... gray.


:rofl:rofl:rofl
woww... thanks for proving my point


The Malaysia fight with the commies was earlier and the brits handled that.
 
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