• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Gay West Point grad testifies before Army

Redress said:
Yeah, cannot see why a study she did on the current military would be taken over the word of a bunch of retired military people who belong to a conservative vet group.
Click to expand...

How much time in the field leading troops does she have? That wasn't on her resume. Has she been to infantry school? Jump school? Arctic warfare school? Jungle school? Ranger school? SF qual-course? Have her CIB? Most of those men do and that's why I'll take their opinion over Dr. Miller's.
 
TheNextEra said:
I will say this, as a "non-ranger' person in the U.S. Army, when I was in I sure in the hell wouldn't have voted for the damn berets and force the ranger folks to go tan.
Click to expand...

See? We found some common ground. Berets for non-special/elite troops was the worst uniform policy the Army ever created...IMO. There was consideration being given to bringing back the, "Ike Jacket", right before I ETS'ed, but unfortunately, that was a no-go.
 
apdst said:
How much time in the field leading troops does she have? That wasn't on her resume. Has she been to infantry school? Jump school? Arctic warfare school? Jungle school? Ranger school? SF qual-course? Have her CIB? Most of those men do and that's why I'll take their opinion over Dr. Miller's.
Click to expand...

Of course you would. It's not convenient to admit that there is no evidence whatsoever to back your position, and that means throwing out the only study done on the subject of gays in the military. What is particularly amusing is almost all of us who fulfill your qualifications to pass judgment on the issue on this board support gays in the military, but of course, we don't count either since we are inconvenient. You have blinded yourself to everything but what you see as the truth, and that makes your point of view incredibly limited.
 
apdst said:
See? We found some common ground. Berets for non-special/elite troops was the worst uniform policy the Army ever created...IMO. There was consideration being given to bringing back the, "Ike Jacket", right before I ETS'ed, but unfortunately, that was a no-go.
Click to expand...

But to prove a point, it wasn't voted on by the soldiers. And it was a changing event. I knew many rangers that were ****ing pissed.

There are changing events in the military that are NOT voted on by the soldiers.

DADT, Berets, EO, whatever.

It happens, gays being allowed (openly) in them ilitary is another one of those.
 
Last edited:
TheNextEra said:
Never had a 1st SGT in that situation.
Click to expand...

I saw it happen twice. One guy thought he was going to punish his company for poor performance on a field problem and he didn't bring them evening chow. I was assigned to the battalion S-3 at the time and I just had to ask him what the hell he was thinking...LOL!!!

Tell me when did the soldiers have a vote on DADT in the first place?

Did the soldiers have a vote in Black Officers?
Click to expand...

Unofficially, they did. The DoD took the reaction of the soldiers into consideration when making the decision, I'm sure. Wouldn't you? Or would your political agenda take precedence over troop morale?
 
TheNextEra said:
But to prove a point, it wasn't voted on by the soldiers. And it was a changing event. I knew many rangers that were ****ing pissed.
Click to expand...

We're talking about something more than just a hat, too.

You remember the first generation BDU's with the big ass disco collar? Wish I woulda had a vote on that crap.
 
Redress said:
Of course you would. It's not convenient to admit that there is no evidence whatsoever to back your position, and that means throwing out the only study done on the subject of gays in the military. What is particularly amusing is almost all of us who fulfill your qualifications to pass judgment on the issue on this board support gays in the military, but of course, we don't count either since we are inconvenient. You have blinded yourself to everything but what you see as the truth, and that makes your point of view incredibly limited.
Click to expand...

Would you take the word of a doctor who had actually done a few surgeries, or the word of a doctor that wrote a few books about doing surgeries?

Practical experience, in any situation, trumps every other opinion.

What is particularly amusing is almost all of us who fulfill your qualifications to pass judgment on the issue on this board support gays in the military, but of course, we don't count either since we are inconvenient.
Click to expand...

What, I'm not as qualified as you are? Is this where we get into a dick measuring contest about who had crotch-rot the most and who had to eat the most snakes?
 
Last edited:
apdst said:
I saw it happen twice. One guy thought he was going to punish his company for poor performance on a field problem and he didn't bring them evening chow. I was assigned to the battalion S-3 at the time and I just had to ask him what the hell he was thinking...LOL!!!
Click to expand...

Haven't seen it. All the 1SG I had never were brough up on that. I only had one 1SG brought up on anything and that was because he was accused of dinggling a Specialist. He was only relieved of his 1SG rank but allowed to keep his E-8 and stay a MSG.

apdst said:
Unofficially, they did. The DoD took the reaction of the soldiers into consideration when making the decision, I'm sure. Wouldn't you? Or would your political agenda take precedence over troop morale?
Click to expand...


Actually there were MANY cases when Blacks were made officers hat the enlisted were not happy with and many of them were disciplined for it.

Either way, officially soldiers didn't vote for it, so why should gays serving openly be allowed that option officially?
 
apdst said:
We're talking about something more than just a hat, too.

You remember the first generation BDU's with the big ass disco collar? Wish I woulda had a vote on that crap.
Click to expand...

Blacks being officers was NOT voted officially either.

And I later saw an officer that had that Big ass disco collar still in 1998 and laughed my ass off lol.
 
Last edited:
TheNextEra said:
Haven't seen it. All the 1SG I had never were brough up on that. I only had one 1SG brought up on anything and that was because he was accused of dinggling a Specialist. He was only relieved of his 1SG rank but allowed to keep his E-8 and stay a MSG.
Click to expand...

Oh, you were in a co-ed unit? Glad I didn't have to deal with all that.


Actually there were MANY cases when Blacks were made officers hat the enlisted were not happy with and many of them were disciplined for it.

Either way, officially soldiers didn't vote for it, so why should gays serving openly be allowed that option officially?
Click to expand...

And, there was alotta racial unrest in the 70's, too. I wonder if it was worth it. Tom Clancey's Battle Ready has contributions by General Anthony Zinni that touches on the racial problems he encountered while stationed in Okinawa. Good read.
 
apdst said:
Would you take the word of a doctor who had actually done a few surgeries, or the word of a doctor that wrote a few books about doing surgeries?

Practical experience, in any situation, trumps every other opinion.
Click to expand...

Guess where the data came from? Why, those people with experience, and military documents. Are you familiar with the Rand Corporation?

You claimed that sexual harassment rates where going to go through the roof, and yet the evidence, obtained from the military, is that this is not happening or going to happen. I supplied more than enough information to back up that claim, you have provided none.

What, I'm not as qualified as you are? Is this where we get into a dick measuring contest about who had crotch-rot the most and who had to eat the most snakes?
Click to expand...

Might want to go back and read what I said. I said that those of us who fit your qualifications(ie veterans) disagree with you.
 
apdst said:
Oh, you were in a co-ed unit? Glad I didn't have to deal with all that.
Click to expand...

Not at the beginning no, but later yes.

I will say this, I welcomed it, while some females didn't cut the mustard, we had one that would rival the guy we called "the beast" hehe.

apdst said:
And, there was alotta racial unrest in the 70's, too. I wonder if it was worth it. Tom Clancey's Battle Ready has contributions by General Anthony Zinni that touches on the racial problems he encountered while stationed in Okinawa. Good read.
Click to expand...

Not saying there wasn't unrest or bad feelings about it, but either way the soldiers don't get to vote on it even if it is life changing.

The blacks I served with in the military were quite honrable. Yes, we had some that either got kicked out or got in trouble (same as whites or Latinos did) but that happens.
 
Last edited:
Redress said:
Guess where the data came from? Why, those people with experience, and military documents. Are you familiar with the Rand Corporation?
Click to expand...

Yeah, they're a Liberal think tank.

You claimed that sexual harassment rates where going to go through the roof, and yet the evidence, obtained from the military, is that this is not happening or going to happen. I supplied more than enough information to back up that claim, you have provided none.
Click to expand...

I provided one. BTW, you got that coed latrine info for us? It affects your credibility not to be able to to support your comments that are made as statements of fact. We don't play that on this forum.



Might want to go back and read what I said. I said that those of us who fit your qualifications(ie veterans) disagree with you.
Click to expand...

"Almost all", is what you said. But you're Left leaning, so you're putting your politics ahead of your service.
 
TheNextEra said:
The blacks I served with in the military were quite honrable. Yes, we had some that either got kicked out or got in trouble (same as whites or Latinos did) but that happens.
Click to expand...


I was in the infantry, so my experience with female soldiers was extremely limited. Thank God! I've heard some horror stories about being in coed units.

My time in service was a very valuable experience. I learned to look past the color of a man's skin, before hating his guts.
 
apdst said:
I learned to look past the color of a man's skin, before hating his guts.
Click to expand...

The same was with Females

And the same will be with openly gays IMO.

My military experience was life changing and I appreciate it.

I still beleive the military to be cutting edge on technology and social behavior and still do, the acceptance of gays will come with that.
 
Offtopic, but goes to show you retired military still can be somewhat liberal :2wave:

That's why I get pissed at people saying Military is nothing but warmongers and I get pissed at people saying liberals know nothing of the military.
 
TheNextEra said:
Offtopic, but goes to show you retired military still can be somewhat liberal :2wave:

That's why I get pissed at people saying Military is nothing but warmongers and I get pissed at people saying liberals know nothing of the military.
Click to expand...

You're in very small minority.:2wave:
 
apdst said:
You're in very small minority.:2wave:
Click to expand...

Maybe, but I am happy to have served and even disagreeing over the Iraq war, I get pissed at people trying to say the military isn't a viable career option.

It is like any other dangerous career option, but IMO gives you more benefits :)
 
apdst said:
yeah, and everyone always has a black, or Latino friend and so on. I only ever met one gay service member and he got his ass kicked for oogling at a dude in the shower one night--charged with sexual harrassment, then later discharged--so I'm having a hard time believing that this many people know that many gay troops. Just guaging by my own experience.
Click to expand...

I'm a gay man who worked for the Air Force for eleven years... four years at the Pentagon. Yes, I knew quite a few gay service members.

I won't challenge your own anecdote about the gay service member who got his ass kicked for oogling a dude in the shower. But I will question the details. Were you there to witness the oogling personally? Did you witness the ass kicking? Please elaborate.

..
 
apdst said:
Yeah, they're a Liberal think tank.
Click to expand...

Not that I can find any evidence on. I do know they are funded partly by, guess who, the DoD. About the RAND Corporation | RAND Frequently Asked Questions (FAQs)

RAND Project AIR FORCE, the RAND National Defense Research Institute, and the RAND Arroyo Center—are long-standing research centers funded annually through the Department of Defense budget to carry out short- and long-term research on national security questions.
Click to expand...

Can you back up your liberal claim by chance?

I provided one. BTW, you got that coed latrine info for us? It affects your credibility not to be able to to support your comments that are made as statements of fact. We don't play that on this forum.
Click to expand...

You know the difference between anecdotal evidence(which is what you supplied), and a study using statistics from the services as a whole? That difference is important.


"Almost all", is what you said. But you're Left leaning, so you're putting your politics ahead of your service.
Click to expand...

The majority of veterans who have commented on this in this thread have supported gays in the military. Do I need to count the numbers for you?

By the way, I do not put anything ahead of my service and love of country. Watch your personal accusations.
 
Grateful Heart said:
I won't challenge your own anecdote about the gay service member who got his ass kicked for oogling a dude in the shower. But I will question the details. Were you there to witness the oogling personally? Did you witness the ass kicking? Please elaborate.
Click to expand...


No, I didn't witness it, but I had to leave in the middle of supper with my wife to go to the barracks and deal with it, since I was their platoon sgt. According to the soldiers who did witness it, it wasn't the first time that the guy had acted inappropriately, and it was delt with smong themselves, as soldiers will sometimes do, but I'm sure that that was the first time that it had turned violent. I was pissed that it was allowed to get that far and wrote everybody up. The gay soldier for sexual harrassment--IAW the Army's definition of sexual harrassment--the sexually harrassed soldier for assault and two soldiers--a fireteam leader and a squad leader--for dereliction of duty. As NCO's in leadership positions, they should have prevented it from going that far.


The company commander insisted that it be dealt with at the company level, very much against my advice. He didn't want the battalion commander finding out about it, which I understood, kinda. He was a weak CO and he was on the BC's radar, so I understood his motivation. The gay soldier was transferred to another platoon, but it wasn't long before there was trouble there, just about the same scenario, too and then the issue made it's way to battalion, where the **** really hit the fan over the whole ordeal.

The gay soldier was sent for a head measuring session and determined to have some serious preditorial tendencies. Ulimately, he was discharged for an, "inability to adapt to military life", a Chapter 7 discharge. When he went to the shrink, he admitted to two other incidents in basic training. One was never written up, because no one wanted to deal with all the bee-ess and the other was never reported.
 
apdst said:
No, I didn't witness it, but I had to leave in the middle of supper with my wife to go to the barracks and deal with it, since I was their platoon sgt. According to the soldiers who did witness it, it wasn't the first time that the guy had acted inappropriately, and it was delt with smong themselves, as soldiers will sometimes do, but I'm sure that that was the first time that it had turned violent. I was pissed that it was allowed to get that far and wrote everybody up. The gay soldier for sexual harrassment--IAW the Army's definition of sexual harrassment--the sexually harrassed soldier for assault and two soldiers--a fireteam leader and a squad leader--for dereliction of duty. As NCO's in leadership positions, they should have prevented it from going that far.
Click to expand...

You said he was charged with sexual harassment. What was the nature of the harassment? Simply looking at somebody in the shower? Or did he make some sexual advance?

..
 
Redress said:
Not that I can find any evidence on. I do know they are funded partly by, guess who, the DoD. About the RAND Corporation | RAND Frequently Asked Questions (FAQs)



Can you back up your liberal claim by chance?



You know the difference between anecdotal evidence(which is what you supplied), and a study using statistics from the services as a whole? That difference is important.




The majority of veterans who have commented on this in this thread have supported gays in the military. Do I need to count the numbers for you?
Click to expand...


I'm sorry if you don't approve, but I'm going to take boots on the ground over a piece of paper hanging in someone's office, anyday.


By the way, I do not put anything ahead of my service and love of country. Watch your personal accusations
Click to expand...

You might try extending the same courtesy to me, sir.

Got that latrine info? It's ok, if you don't.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom