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Washington to California: Drop dead

Scarecrow Akhbar said:
So you subscribe to the false theory that lower taxes equals lower government revenues.
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That's sometimes true, sometimes not. We know for sure, however, that lower taxes always equals more economic activity.
 
disneydude said:
Here is a good place to start....(five second search)....When I have more time....I'll do the rest of your research for you.




Wrong...read the link and do a little research of your own.

The reality is....the death penalty is costly and a luxury that the State can no longer afford, this doesn't even get into whether it is morally right or not...this is simple economics.
If California wants to cut billions from its budget, eliminate the death penalty and punish offenders by putting them in a 10x4 cell for 23 hours a day for the rest of their lives.
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[HERE'S the link: Costs of the Death Penalty | Death Penalty Information Center.
 
apdst said:
They're also able to work for $3.00 per hour, too. Wouldn't a pay hike cause our food prices to go through the roof? That's the argument that the Libbos have used to defend illegal labor all these years. Is not as true now?
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I don't know. It matters if the pay hikes turn the profits upside down. More then likely the pay hike will require that the work force be trimmed and less have to work harder to make up the slack.

Also we would have 3 million people more paying taxes and contributing to the consumer market. That is beneficial to our economy.

apdst said:
If we're going to pay them minimum wage, anway, let's jsut deport all of them and give those jobs to actual American citizens.
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I'm all for that. The problem is the illegal workers do their work without complaint of conditions or time off, etc. You will be asking agricultural companies to give up paying a guy $3.00/hour that never talks back and works hard for someone they have to pay $8/hour that will constant complain and most likely bring the union into the fold.

It would have to be setup correctly to make the transition as painless as possible to be accepted.
 
Gibberish said:
I'm all for that. The problem is the illegal workers do their work without complaint of conditions or time off, etc. You will be asking agricultural companies to give up paying a guy $3.00/hour that never talks back and works hard for someone they have to pay $8/hour that will constant complain and most likely bring the union into the fold.

It would have to be setup correctly to make the transition as painless as possible to be accepted.
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How can we justify forcing someone to pay an employee $8 an hour when the work is only worth $3 an hour to him?
 
phattonez said:
How can we justify forcing someone to pay an employee $8 an hour when the work is only worth $3 an hour to him?
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It's called minimum wage. To the employer the work is worth the lowest amount they can pay. I'm sure the employers would love for all their workers to work for free. One reason for minimum wage is to protect the livelihood of those that can be easily taken advantage of by employers through lack of options.

You can agree or disagree with the existence of minimum wage but as it is, it exists.
 
Gibberish said:
It's called minimum wage. To the employer the work is worth the lowest amount they can pay. I'm sure the employers would love for all their workers to work for free. One reason for minimum wage is to protect the livelihood of those that can be easily taken advantage of by employers through lack of options.

You can agree or disagree with the existence of minimum wage but as it is, it exists.
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I mean how can we morally justify it?

And yes, employers would love for their workers to work for free, but if you have a policy that all of your employees will work for free, then you will have no employees.
 
Gibberish said:
The problem is the illegal workers do their work without complaint of conditions or time off, etc. You will be asking agricultural companies to give up paying a guy $3.00/hour that never talks back and works hard for someone they have to pay $8/hour that will constant complain and most likely bring the union into the fold.
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I'm not totally convinced that the illegals are the workaholics that most folks think they are. I've worked around plenty of them and scene suddenly, "no comprende". Generally speaking, they do whine less than your average American doing the same job, but you have to understand the position they're in. It's either do the job, as is, or go back to Mexico. Not much room for whinin there. As long as we live in a country that awards laziness and punishes hard work, that's the way it'll always be.
 
Gibberish said:
It would have to be setup correctly to make the transition as painless as possible to be accepted.
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Oh, that's easy enough.

Start arresting employers of invaders, fining them, and putting them in jail.

The transition to an invader-free agricultural industry will happen rapidly and painlessly to me.
 
Scarecrow Akhbar said:
That's why the government has machine guns.
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Lol, okay, so I guess you agree with me on that, but what about welfare? I'd assume you don't like that either.

So then, what would you do with immigration? Quota system or free immigration (as long as we weed out criminals)?
 
Scarecrow Akhbar said:
Oh, that's easy enough.

Start arresting employers of invaders, fining them, and putting them in jail.

The transition to an invader-free agricultural industry will happen rapidly and painlessly to me.
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So what happens to the economy and the nations food supply when 2/3 of the $30 billion a year agricultural industry, which is also close to 15% of the US food supply, is shutdown due to arrests?
 
apdst said:
I'm not totally convinced that the illegals are the workaholics that most folks think they are. I've worked around plenty of them and scene suddenly, "no comprende". Generally speaking, they do whine less than your average American doing the same job, but you have to understand the position they're in. It's either do the job, as is, or go back to Mexico. Not much room for whinin there. As long as we live in a country that awards laziness and punishes hard work, that's the way it'll always be.
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I'm not either. In my experience those workers do a half ass job. They do the job their told without complaint. It's the quality that gets hurt.

Though in agriculture how much of a variant in quality is there when picking produce?
 
phattonez said:
I mean how can we morally justify it?

And yes, employers would love for their workers to work for free, but if you have a policy that all of your employees will work for free, then you will have no employees.
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Which is why they pay their employers just enough to make them not leave. The minimum wage sets this baseline at, not what the employee is willing to make, but at what is required to live a means in the US that the employee can still give back to the consumer market, even if in a small way.
 
Gibberish said:
Which is why they pay their employers just enough to make them not leave. The minimum wage sets this baseline at, not what the employee is willing to make, but at what is required to live a means in the US that the employee can still give back to the consumer market, even if in a small way.
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You must see the flaw in your reasoning. If what you are saying were true, then everyone would be making minimum wage.
 
phattonez said:
You must see the flaw in your reasoning. If what you are saying were true, then everyone would be making minimum wage.
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How do you figure that? There is still an employment free market. This just sets the baseline for non-educated non-experienced non-specialty workers.

Why would I make minimum wage when the employment market dictates my job is over 100k?
 
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Gibberish said:
How do you figure that? There is still an employment free market. This just sets the baseline for non-educated non-experienced non-specialty workers.
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That's what I'm saying. They'll get paid what they're worth. Why is it any different with these people?
 
phattonez said:
That's what I'm saying. They'll get paid what they're worth. Why is it any different with these people?
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They can choose to decide they are worth more, ask for higher pay, and strike they don't receive it. The problem is, because of their lack of skills, education, and experience, they aren't worth more to anyone else. Thus their pay is limited to what employers are willing to pay them.

If they want to make more they need to either demand it or acquire the skills to make themselves more valuable to employers.

In the instance of the illegals. The workers are at the mercy of the employers because the illegal doesn't have the options to demand anything.
 
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Gibberish said:
They can choose to decide they are worth more, ask for higher pay, and strike they don't receive it. The problem is, because of their lack of skills, education, and experience, they aren't worth more to anyone else. Thus their pay is limited to what employers are willing to pay them.

If they want to make more they need to either demand it or acquire the skills to make themselves more valuable to employers.
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So then what is the moral justification for minimum wage?
 
Gibberish said:
Though in agriculture how much of a variant in quality is there when picking produce?
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There's a large variant: too ripe, not ripe enough, miss the high quality fruit, pick the low quality fruit resulting in too many culls, while quality fruit continues to ripen on the plant, improper handling of the fruit causing bruising; there's as much quality control in produce picking as there is in putting a car together on an assembly line.

I worked on my family's farms as a teenager and I can tell you that a field hand can make you, or break you.
 
phattonez said:
So then what is the moral justification for minimum wage?
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I'm not an expert but I believe it set at what economics feel is a justified level for someone to live a life off the streets while trying to make your self more valuable to employers through experience and education.

I don't think it is ever meant as a level to live your life at. It's an entry point to the employment world.
 
Gibberish said:
I'm not an expert but I believe it set at what economics feel is a justified level for someone to live a life off the streets while trying to make your self more valuable to employers through experience and education.
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But why should am employer be forced to pay that when he is not even getting that level of production from the worker? Sure, everything seems great for the worker, but what about the employee? Who speaks for him?
 
apdst said:
There's a large variant: too ripe, not ripe enough, miss the high quality fruit, pick the low quality fruit resulting in too many culls, while quality fruit continues to ripen on the plant, improper handling of the fruit causing bruising; there's as much quality control in produce picking as there is in putting a car together on an assembly line.

I worked on my family's farms as a teenager and I can tell you that a field hand can make you, or break you.
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From my understanding these large farms pick everything within quadrants of growth and everything is shipped to a facility for sorting. The pickers don't make the decisions. I believe their is a documentary out a few years ago speaking to the thousand of pounds of wasted food due to the food not considered sell able in grocery stores.
 
Gibberish said:
From my understanding these large farms pick everything within quadrants of growth and everything is shipped to a facility for sorting. The pickers don't make the decisions. I believe their is a documentary out a few years ago speaking to the thousand of pounds of wasted food due to the food not considered sell able in grocery stores.
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Some do, but not all.
 
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