• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Washington to California: Drop dead

Gibberish said:
What is the negative of taxing an already established work force that is currently not paying taxes?
Click to expand...

They're still here illegally, something should be done about it so that at least they're working legally.
 
Scarecrow Akhbar said:
What part of "illegal" escapes your comprehension?

If agribusiness wants berry pickers, it can hire US citizens or legal immigrants, not invaders.
Click to expand...

That's great in theory. The reality is that illegal workers are hired and will remain hired until their work force can be replaced without impacting productivity.

Scarecrow Akhbar said:
1) Is the state funding your park? No? Then it's not an issue.

2) Why shouldn't you pay a fee to use the park, instead of taxing people who aren't using it to keep it up?
Click to expand...

What is the price increase for security to keep people off the park property that have not paid? Are parks going to now be fenced in like amusement parks?
 
phattonez said:
They're still here illegally, something should be done about it so that at least they're working legally.
Click to expand...
That's what I am saying.

Some people on here don't want to go down that road. They just have this resentment and want the illegal workers to pay for their crimes no matter what and are unwilling to compromise. They would rather see industries in the United States fail and have us spend hundreds of million of dollars then to compromise with the workers.
 
Last edited:
Gibberish said:
Some people on here don't want to go down that road. They just have this resentment and want the illegal workers to pay for their crimes no matter what and are unwilling to compromise. They would rather see industries in the United States fail then to compromise with the workers.
Click to expand...

We should be in better control of the immigration problem. That said, I support free immigration, as long as we filter out the criminals.
 
phattonez said:
We should be in better control of the immigration problem. That said, I support free immigration, as long as we filter out the criminals.
Click to expand...

And how do you purpose to do that if they are illegal.

Mexico is going to give the crooks a free pass on immigration just to get rid of them.

Cost of illegals in California 10 billion a year and rising.That's one third of the deficient now,and is a major reason for it.

Tell the people on welfare no work, no money,don't like the job, find yourself a better job and get off welfare.
 
Scarecrow Akhbar said:
Friggin' Democrats.

What's their complaint about California?



According to those maggots, the problem California has is that the politicians can't raise taxes faster than they can spend money.

Californians are taxed more than anyone else in the entire country.

Low taxes aren't the problem here.
Click to expand...

California does have high taxes, but are 9th in the top 10. New Jersey and New York are the highest. I am a Democrat, but my problem with California is the same as the rest of the country. These states are not living within their means. Stop the deficit spending and then you can lower taxes, like the Dakotas and Alaska, that have the lowest taxes in the country and do not even tax incomes.
 
rudedog said:
And how do you purpose to do that if they are illegal.

Mexico is going to give the crooks a free pass on immigration just to get rid of them.

Cost of illegals in California 10 billion a year and rising.That's one third of the deficient now,and is a major reason for it.

Tell the people on welfare no work, no money,don't like the job, find yourself a better job and get off welfare.
Click to expand...

We should have better control over our borders. We definitely should get rid of welfare since it would destroy an incentive to come over.
 
apdst said:
Are you suggesting that halting the death penalty will save the state money?
Click to expand...

Absolutely....it costs Billions to have a death penalty. Isn't life in prison without the possibility of parole enough?

When you have a death penalty, you have to make absolutely sure you are making the right decision. Especially when you have case after case after case being found to be wrongly decided with new DNA technology.

If the state simply got out of the killing business the state would save billions of dollars.
 
Scarecrow Akhbar said:
Limit the number of appeals, and pull the trigger when the appeals run out, saving tons of money, but nothing more than a drop in the bucket of California's spending problem.
Click to expand...

This response just shows how little you know about the justice system. The cost is not in the appeal...the cost is in the prosecution.

A murder charge without the death penalty usually goes to trial in about a year.
A special circumstance/death penalty case usually takes about 4-5 years to prosecute because of the penalty phase portion of the trial.
When death is the punishment, our system requires the prosecution to show that the aggravation outweighs any mitigating factors. Because death is absolute, it raises the stakes substantially higher than other cases.
With the additional investigation ...etc. It costs about 10x as much to prosecute a death penalty case. If the state simply said that spending the rest of your life in a 10x4 cell was punishment enough.....we would save billions.
 
phattonez said:
Yes, but there are barriers to entry, most importantly is minimum wage. If they are not worth minimum wage, then they will have to work long hours and many will not be employed. It's as simple as that.
Click to expand...

If they're US citizens, it will be illegal to pay them less than minimum wage. If they're US citizens, they will also be able to go after jobs that they wouldn't be able to get, as illegals.



Gibberish said:
They are already working. They are just able to evade the taxes that go along with working.

What is the negative of taxing an already established work force that is currently not paying taxes?
Click to expand...


They're also able to work for $3.00 per hour, too. Wouldn't a pay hike cause our food prices to go through the roof? That's the argument that the Libbos have used to defend illegal labor all these years. Is not as true now?

If we're going to pay them minimum wage, anway, let's jsut deport all of them and give those jobs to actual American citizens.



disneydude said:
Absolutely....it costs Billions to have a death penalty. Isn't life in prison without the possibility of parole enough?

When you have a death penalty, you have to make absolutely sure you are making the right decision. Especially when you have case after case after case being found to be wrongly decided with new DNA technology.

If the state simply got out of the killing business the state would save billions of dollars.
Click to expand...


If we're not executing them, they we're not spedning money on a death row...LOL!!!!

Especially when you have case after case after case being found to be wrongly decided with new DNA technology.
Click to expand...

DNA can be used to find them guilty beyond all doubt, as well. Ready to go ahead an smoke those ones???
 
apdst said:
If they're US citizens, it will be illegal to pay them less than minimum wage. If they're US citizens, they will also be able to go after jobs that they wouldn't be able to get, as illegals.
Click to expand...

What's your point? Minimum wage will still affect US citizens.
 
apdst said:
If we're not executing them, they we're not spedning money on a death row...LOL!!!!



DNA can be used to find them guilty beyond all doubt, as well. Ready to go ahead an smoke those ones???
Click to expand...

Actually....thank you....you raised a point that I forgot.
It costs more to house an inmate on death row awaiting execution than it does to simply house them in high security general population for the rest of their life.

The higher security.....higher guard wage pay is another issue that simply doing away with the death penalty would save.

If Arnold had the balls....he would simply say that the death penalty is a luxury that the State cannot afford.
Life without the possibility of parole is probably a harsher penalty anyways....and would save the state billions.
 
disneydude said:
If Arnold had the balls....he would simply say that the death penalty is a luxury that the State cannot afford.
Life without the possibility of parole is probably a harsher penalty anyways....and would save the state billions.
Click to expand...


Not an expert here on that matter as far as ACTUAL costs, but what would you say a state would save on that, and would it be really worth doing?

What I mean is if the death row costs an equivalent 5 cents to a $200.00 budget that doesn't amount to very much change or bang for the buck.

Where is the main money being spent? Because that is what really has to be looked at then. If Death row is costing a big amount compared to what needs to be cut , then I say go for it, cut it.
 
Can you imagine what the rioting will look like in the ghettos when those welfare checks stop going out? Holy moly
 
Liz Peeps said:
Can you imagine what the rioting will look like in the ghettos when those welfare checks stop going out? Holy moly
Click to expand...

Imagine: a world where you actually have to take on responsibility.
 
tlmorg02 said:
California does have high taxes, but are 9th in the top 10. New Jersey and New York are the highest. I am a Democrat, but my problem with California is the same as the rest of the country. These states are not living within their means. Stop the deficit spending and then you can lower taxes, like the Dakotas and Alaska, that have the lowest taxes in the country and do not even tax incomes.
Click to expand...

California and New York can have higher taxes because people actually WANT to live here.
The Dakotas and Alaska are good examples of states that have low taxes because if they had taxes on our level no one would live there.
 
disneydude said:
This response just shows how little you know about the justice system. The cost is not in the appeal...the cost is in the prosecution.

A murder charge without the death penalty usually goes to trial in about a year.
A special circumstance/death penalty case usually takes about 4-5 years to prosecute because of the penalty phase portion of the trial.
When death is the punishment, our system requires the prosecution to show that the aggravation outweighs any mitigating factors. Because death is absolute, it raises the stakes substantially higher than other cases.
With the additional investigation ...etc. It costs about 10x as much to prosecute a death penalty case. If the state simply said that spending the rest of your life in a 10x4 cell was punishment enough.....we would save billions.
Click to expand...

This is so false that I don't know where to start.

This response just shows how little you know about the justice system. The cost is not in the appeal...the cost is in the prosecution.
Click to expand...

Link?

A murder charge without the death penalty usually goes to trial in about a year.
A special circumstance/death penalty case usually takes about 4-5 years to prosecute because of the penalty phase portion of the trial.
Click to expand...

Link?

With the additional investigation ...etc. It costs about 10x as much to prosecute a death penalty case.
Click to expand...

No, it absolutely doesn't. Even anti-death penalty advocacy groups don't make such ridiculous claims.

From Amnesty:

# A 2003 legislative audit in Kansas found that the estimated cost of a death penalty case was 70% more than the cost of a comparable non-death penalty case. Death penalty case costs were counted through to execution (median cost $1.26 million). Non-death penalty case costs were counted through to the end of incarceration (median cost $740,000).
(December 2003 Survey by the Kansas Legislative Post Audit)

# In Tennessee, death penalty trials cost an average of 48% more than the average cost of trials in which prosecutors seek life imprisonment.
(2004 Report from Tennessee Comptroller of the Treasury Office of Research)
Click to expand...

Death Penalty Cost

You're taking your numbers from a CA study that doesn't actually look at the cost of prosecuting the cases, but makes horribly rough estimates as to the "cost of the system" and then extrapolates from there. Even then, you embellished.

If the state simply said that spending the rest of your life in a 10x4 cell was punishment enough.....we would save billions.
Click to expand...

Even if this were true (and it's not), that assumes that the cost savings would outweigh the many lives that would be lost:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/18/us/18deter.html
 
TheNextEra said:
Not an expert here on that matter as far as ACTUAL costs, but what would you say a state would save on that, and would it be really worth doing?

What I mean is if the death row costs an equivalent 5 cents to a $200.00 budget that doesn't amount to very much change or bang for the buck.

Where is the main money being spent? Because that is what really has to be looked at then. If Death row is costing a big amount compared to what needs to be cut , then I say go for it, cut it.
Click to expand...

I would have to research it to get you a link, but I have worked in the justice system for a couple of decades. There are many studies that show that doing away would the death penalty would save billions of dollars.
 
tlmorg02 said:
California does have high taxes, but are 9th in the top 10. New Jersey and New York are the highest. I am a Democrat, but my problem with California is the same as the rest of the country. These states are not living within their means. Stop the deficit spending and then you can lower taxes, like the Dakotas and Alaska, that have the lowest taxes in the country and do not even tax incomes.
Click to expand...

So you subscribe to the false theory that lower taxes equals lower government revenues.

Good for you.

Someone has to worship the false gods, or they go hungry.

Better you than me.

The states, all of them, need to stop spending on practically everything that involves the Robbin' Hood Principle, ie, stealing money where you can and buying votes with it.
 
phattonez said:
We should have better control over our borders. We definitely should get rid of welfare since it would destroy an incentive to come over.
Click to expand...

AND...!

It would provide a serious incentive for people to turn off Oprah and get out to the fields where they can earn money to buy food.

Work! What a concept.
 
disneydude said:
If the state simply got out of the killing business the state would save billions of dollars.
Click to expand...

Then again, if the state got out of the appeal business, when DNA testing conclusively shows the accused is guilty, the state would save billions of dollars.

Lots of people like that on death row, who could be flushed tomorrow, becuase their basic guilt isn't in question, merely whether some judge along the line failed to dot his j's.
 
disneydude said:
This response just shows how little you know about the justice system. The cost is not in the appeal...the cost is in the prosecution.
Click to expand...

Oh, then let's restore vigilante justice. Rope is cheap.

disneydude said:
A murder charge without the death penalty usually goes to trial in about a year.
A special circumstance/death penalty case usually takes about 4-5 years to prosecute because of the penalty phase portion of the trial.
Click to expand...

Oh, nonsense.

Jose Avilla was tried within two years of his apprehension, the day after his victim was found strangled with his sperm in her five year old body, with tire tracks matching his car at the scene where she was found and with her blond hair in his car.

There was no reason that trial too so long to prepare.

There is no reason why that turd is still breathing.

The trial rules are too lenient if it takes two years to put that thing on trial, the appeals rules are to soft, if he's still breathing after all this time.

Scott Peterson is still alive.

Why?

The ONLY thing making capital punishment so expensive is the bleeding heart whiners who don't mind seeing millions of innocent babies murdered each year but cry their hypocritical hearts out when a convicted murderer finally gets the punishment waiting for him.

Here's a notion for ya. The justice system exists to punish the guilty. Claiming we should abdicate that duty to save money is the sheerest hypocrisy of liars who don't care the least bit about justice.

Stop spending more than five billion dollars on illegal aliens, stop spending billions on welfare, stop spending billions upon billions on publics schools that don't educate, and stop spending billions more on social engineering programs that can never work because they ignore basic facts of human nature.

But do all that before you continue corrupting the basic framework of the justice system. It's supposed to dispense justice for the victim and punishment to the convicted.

disneydude said:
When death is the punishment, our system requires the prosecution to show that the aggravation outweighs any mitigating factors. Because death is absolute, it raises the stakes substantially higher than other cases.
Click to expand...

Fine.

Then when the case is shown to be aggravated beyond belief, when the evidence is totally incontrovertible, why isn't the accused executed?

Well?

Not because the evidence is faulty.

Not because the jury made a boo-boo.

Because the lawyers make money by dragging the system out.

Start disbarring lawyers wasting taxpayer money with frivolities and watch the system improve.
 
apdst said:
If they're US citizens, it will be illegal to pay them less than minimum wage.
Click to expand...

Eliminate the minimum wage. It's inflationary and decreases the number of jobs and it violates basic constitutional principles of property ownership and freedom of association.

apdst said:
If they're US citizens, they will also be able to go after jobs that they wouldn't be able to get, as illegals.
Click to expand...

If they started out as illegals, they have to get in the back of the line.

That's called "fairness".


apdst said:
They're also able to work for $3.00 per hour, too. Wouldn't a pay hike cause our food prices to go through the roof?
Click to expand...

Jeez, same old robot arguments getting dragged out until the poor thing's joints are frozen and the battery's done gone flat.

It cost a dime to pick a head of lettuce that sells for a buck at the supermarket. If the cost of picking the damn thing is doubled to pay for legal labor, it costs twenty cents. If 100% of that cost was passed on to the consumer the price of lettuce would sky rocket all the way up to a dollar ten from a dollar.

So much for the oh-gee, we'll go broke at the store argument favoring the invading hordes.

apdst said:
That's the argument that the Libbos have used to defend illegal labor all these years. Is not as true now?
Click to expand...

Never been true at all.

apdst said:
If we're going to pay them minimum wage, anway, let's jsut deport all of them and give those jobs to actual American citizens.
Click to expand...

Let's just deport them because we understand what the word "illegal" means and be done with it.
 
RightinNYC said:
Link?
Click to expand...

Here is a good place to start....(five second search)....When I have more time....I'll do the rest of your research for you.


RightinNYC said:
No, it absolutely doesn't. Even anti-death penalty advocacy groups don't make such ridiculous claims.
Click to expand...

Wrong...read the link and do a little research of your own.

The reality is....the death penalty is costly and a luxury that the State can no longer afford, this doesn't even get into whether it is morally right or not...this is simple economics.
If California wants to cut billions from its budget, eliminate the death penalty and punish offenders by putting them in a 10x4 cell for 23 hours a day for the rest of their lives.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom