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Honduran President Manuel Zelaya Is Deposed

It sounds as if Zelaya wanted to be another Chavez and the other arms of government have taken him down. I do not know whether this is good or bad, but if the country turns more to military leadership, we may be looking at a Central American version of Pakistan.
 
tlmorg02 said:
It sounds as if Zelaya wanted to be another Chavez and the other arms of government have taken him down. I do not know whether this is good or bad, but if the country turns more to military leadership, we may be looking at a Central American version of Pakistan.
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Pakistan is a bad analogy. Honduras doesn't have a Taliban haunting its borders, nor nuclear weapons, nor the means to acquire nuclear weapons.

Chile is the better analogy, with a leftist (Allende) being overthrown by military junta (Pinochet).

What I did not see in the article was specifically who was commanding the military forces arresting Zelaya. Am curious to see who's in the role of Pinochet.
 
celticlord said:
Pakistan is a bad analogy. Honduras doesn't have a Taliban haunting its borders, nor nuclear weapons, nor the means to acquire nuclear weapons.

Chile is the better analogy, with a leftist (Allende) being overthrown by military junta (Pinochet).

What I did not see in the article was specifically who was commanding the military forces arresting Zelaya. Am curious to see who's in the role of Pinochet.
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I've got plans to go to Honduras on a fishing trip. I hope this doesn't screw it up.
 
tlmorg02 said:
It sounds as if Zelaya wanted to be another Chavez and the other arms of government have taken him down. I do not know whether this is good or bad, but if the country turns more to military leadership, we may be looking at a Central American version of Pakistan.
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Well ive got to admit I dont know much about the situation in Honduros but their is certainly a history in Latin America of unsavory characters taking over countrys using the false pretence that the country in question is going to be turned into a communist dictatorship. Jacobo Arbenz/Carlos Castillo Armas for example.

Central American version of Pakistan in what sence?
 
Red_Dave said:
Well ive got to admit I dont know much about the situation in Honduros but their is certainly a history in Latin America of unsavory characters taking over countrys using the false pretence that the country in question is going to be turned into a communist dictatorship. Jacobo Arbenz/Carlos Castillo Armas for example.

Central American version of Pakistan in what sence?
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I have to agree with Celticord on the better example of Chile. However, my reference to Pakistan was one of military control. Musharaff, for example, was general in the Pakistani military and basically ruled the country as such. He battled the Supreme Court and the legal scholars and lawyers of Pakistan for a long time, before finally stepping aside with much U.S. pressure. It appears in Honduras, the military is attempting to take over the government from elected leaders. This will be a terrible development for the country and region as a whole.
 
tlmorg02 said:
I have to agree with Celticord on the better example of Chile. However, my reference to Pakistan was one of military control. Musharaff, for example, was general in the Pakistani military and basically ruled the country as such. He battled the Supreme Court and the legal scholars and lawyers of Pakistan for a long time, before finally stepping aside with much U.S. pressure. It appears in Honduras, the military is attempting to take over the government from elected leaders. This will be a terrible development for the country and region as a whole.
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Well I think the same applies to Chile as Guetamala. Salador Allende was in the process of moderating when he was overthrown, he was making overtures to more moderate factions while his former allies on the far left were acusing him of selling out. As in Guetamala saving the country from a fake totalitarian threat was a false pretence. Im not saying this is necessarily the case in Honduras im just saying its a history that needs taking into account.
 
Agnapostate said:
So Chavez says that he'll "abort" the coup? I wonder if they're prepared for military intervention.
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If thats the case then I hope Uribe isnt thinking along similar lines:shock:
 
Something to think about. We trained the Honduran military and operate a joint base there. We have 550 or so troops down there along with a lot of aircraft and hardware. What about our troops down there? Are they cut off? Will they be expelled? I haven't heard anything at all about them, I hope they are safe.
 
angrycarpenter said:
Something to think about. We trained the Honduran military and operate a joint base there. We have 550 or so troops down there along with a lot of aircraft and hardware. What about our troops down there? Are they cut off? Will they be expelled? I haven't heard anything at all about them, I hope they are safe.
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Unless Honduras wants to be completely obliterated they'll leave them alone or at least kick them out peacefully.

What are we doing in Honduras anyway?
 
phattonez said:
What are we doing in Honduras anyway?
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Soto Cano Air Base, Honduras

Joint Task Force-Bravo is located at Soto Cano Air Base, Honduras. JTF-Bravo is comprised of approximately 550 US military personnel and more than 650 US and Honduran civilians. They work in six different areas including the Joint Staff, Air Force Forces (612th Air Base Squadron), Army Forces, Joint Security Forces and the Medical Element. 1st Battalion, 228th Aviation Regiment, a US Army South asset, is a tenant unit also based at Soto Cano. The J-Staff provides command and control for JTF-B.

The Air Force Forces has among its functions; weather forecasting, fire protection, and maintaining a 24-hour C-5-capable runway. The Army Forces operate finance, food service and transportation. Joint Security Forces is comprised of Air Force, Army and Marine force protection personnel who patrol the base and downtown areas frequented by US servicemembers.

Health care services are performed by the Medical Element. The 1st Battalion, 228th Aviation Regiment performs a variety of airlift support missions throughout Central and South America with UH-60 Black Hawk and CH-47 Chinook helicopters. US forces are guests here on the base which is the home of the Honduran Air Force Academy.

As early as 1965, the US and Honduran Armed Forces conducted combined training exercises. In 1983, the number and size of these exercises increased when the US, at the request of the Honduran Government, began maintaining a visible military presence in the face of threats from foreign forces. This initial joint force was designated JTF-11. Since 1983, the joint task force has provided support for joint and combined training exercises involving active and reserve components. The location and climate of Honduras combine to provide US military members an opportunity to train in an overseas, semi-tropical, austere environment.

The task force also oversees Operation New Horizons — civil engineer training missions that build new schools, bridges, wells and other infrastructure projects in underdeveloped regions of Central America, as well as assisting US forces in providing humanitarian assistance. Additionally, Soto Cano stages and arranges regular medical readiness training exercises throughout Central America — dispatching doctors, dentists and nurses to remote regions to treat locals, some of whom have never received modern medical care.
 
Agent Ferris said:
Or that he is put back in power where he can continue to disobey the Honduras Constitution like another Chavez.
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The referendum was colsolative and non binding so I cant see how Zelaya was an immediate threat. Still how is changing the constitution "disobeying" it? Were all 27 amendments to the United States constitution examples of the government "disobeying" the consitution? Should the presidents responsible have been overthrown as well?
 
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They're saying Hillary was pissed at him for dragging her into a room to shake hands with his entire family. That'll teach them to f*** with the Clintons.
 
Red_Dave said:
The referendum was colsolative and non binding so I cant see how Zelaya was an immediate threat.
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Red_Dave,

You raise an important issue.

IMO, while President Zelaya was taking measures that violated Honduras' constitution, as only the Congress has the authority to schedule referenda of the kind President Zelaya was seeking, the constitutional machinery needed to be used to address the problem. That might have taken some time, but it was within the Supreme Court's decision to strike down the results of an illegal referendum and Congress' authority to move to impeach the President should he have held that referendum.

A military coup runs counter to Honduras' constitution.
 
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donsutherland1 said:
Red_Dave,

You raise an important issue.

IMO, while President Zelaya was taking measures that violated Honduras' constitution, as only the Congress has the authority to schedule referenda of the kind President Zelaya was seeking, the constitutional machinery needed to be used to address the problem. That might have taken some time, but it was within the Supreme Court's decision to strike down the results of an illegal referendum and Congress' authority to move to impeach the President should he have held that referendum.

A military coup runs counter to Honduras' constitution.
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Is that to say that holding *non-binding* referendums without the permission congress is illegal? I think the huge crackdown on left-wingers we,re seeing in the country would surgest there are ulterior motives involved.
 
donsutherland1 said:
A military coup runs counter to Honduras' constitution.
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So does the president ignoring the rulings of the supreme court and the congress. The Honduran congress were upholding the rule of law.

What happened wasn't a coup. The congress empowered the military to arrest and deport the president. The government wasn't ovethrown, a dictator wasn't placed in power. In fact, the opposite happened, the government was preserved and a dictator was ousted from office.
 
No, you continue to ignore that critical point in favor of ideological dogma. Even if there was dispute about the constitutionality of something so trivial as a nonbinding referendum, there exists neither legal nor ethical justification for the forcible removal and deportation of a democratically elected head of state, since, as was previously mentioned, there wasn't even an apparent constitutional means to remove him peaceably.
 
Agnapostate said:
No, you continue to ignore that critical point in favor of ideological dogma. Even if there was dispute about the constitutionality of something so trivial as a nonbinding referendum, there exists neither legal nor ethical justification for the forcible removal and deportation of a democratically elected head of state, since, as was previously mentioned, there wasn't even an apparent constitutional means to remove him peaceably.
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Zelaya totally ignored the rulings of the supreme court. Obviously, he didn't intend on playing byt the rules and agree to go peaceably. If he got away with ignoring the supreme court decision prohibiting the abolition of term limits, it's safe to say he would have used his new dictatorial powers to suspend elections this fall.
 
apdst said:
Zelaya totally ignored the rulings of the supreme court. Obviously, he didn't intend on playing byt the rules and agree to go peaceably. If he got away with ignoring the supreme court decision prohibiting the abolition of term limits, it's safe to say he would have used his new dictatorial powers to suspend elections this fall.
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No, it isn't. Aside from the obviously fallacious nature of the insinuation that there were no other means of responding to his attempt to organize a referendum than through forcible and violent removal, I wouldn't necessarily consider an attempt to organize an effective poll of the electorate an indication of an intent to suspend democratic governance. ;)
 
apdst said:
So does the president ignoring the rulings of the supreme court and the congress. The Honduran congress were upholding the rule of law.
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At the time of the coup, the Congress had not impeached the President. Instead, Bloomberg.com reports, the Congress was "moving toward impeachment proceedings." Had the Congress actually impeached the President and then the military removed him on account of his refusing to leave office, there would be no constitutional issues. Unfortunately, that is not what happened.
 
donsutherland1 said:
At the time of the coup, the Congress had not impeached the President. Instead, Bloomberg.com reports, the Congress was "moving toward impeachment proceedings." Had the Congress actually impeached the President and then the military removed him on account of his refusing to leave office, there would be no constitutional issues. Unfortunately, that is not what happened.
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They were stopping trouble, before it happened. I don't think it's a far stretch to suggest that Zelaya would have mobilized his own forces in response to an official impeachment.
 
Agnapostate said:
No, you continue to ignore that critical point in favor of ideological dogma. Even if there was dispute about the constitutionality of something so trivial as a nonbinding referendum, there exists neither legal nor ethical justification for the forcible removal and deportation of a democratically elected head of state, since, as was previously mentioned, there wasn't even an apparent constitutional means to remove him peaceably.
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I heard on the radio this morning that the Congress impeached him by a unanimous vote. He wouldn't leave so they removed him.
 
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