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House narrowly passes major energy-climate bill

apdst said:
Because PBO knows that he only has one term to pass all this BS.
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:rofl...you wish....after the line that the Republicans have drawn in the sand, the next election should be cake.
Who is the GOP going to run....Palin :doh, Jindal:lol: or Ensign...:2funny:

Oh wait.....Huckabee? :sinking:
 
disneydude said:
:rofl...you wish....after the line that the Republicans have drawn in the sand, the next election should be cake.
Who is the GOP going to run....Palin :doh, Jindal:lol: or Ensign...:2funny:

Oh wait.....Huckabee? :sinking:
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The Dems will ahve to run someone in PBO's place, just to get someone, anyone, elected. All the damage he's doing to the country and no one is going to vote for his silly ass.

I bet OPEC's glad this piece-a-**** bill passed. We just thought our dependance on foreign oil was alot. we ain't seen nothin' yet.
 
disneydude said:
:rofl...you wish....after the line that the Republicans have drawn in the sand, the next election should be cake.
Who is the GOP going to run....Palin :doh, Jindal:lol: or Ensign...:2funny:

Oh wait.....Huckabee? :sinking:
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Hey DD, if this actually becomes law, and I think it won't, but if it does, and next year the impact of the higher costs to EVVERYTHING we do in life, and the lost jobs kick in...

Will you still feel the same way? I think not.... we'll I would hope you'd wake up at that point.
 
MrVicchio said:
Yes, because reading a bill BEFORE one votes on it is SOOO 20th Century.
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Hillarious!!!!!!

I've had Libbos tell me that they are going to drag us kicking and screaming into the 21st Century. I guess that means not reading bill, too.
 
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Don't Tase Me Bro said:
When this passed in Spain, they lost 2.2 jobs for every green job that was created. It devastated their economy. Their unemployment rate is over 18%.

RealClearPolitics - Tilting at Green Windmills
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Talk about bull****.

Spain's unemployment has zero to do with them investing heavily in green energy. It has everything to do with an over reliance on the construction industry for the last 2 decades.
 
MrVicchio said:
Hey DD, if this actually becomes law, and I think it won't, but if it does, and next year the impact of the higher costs to EVVERYTHING we do in life, and the lost jobs kick in...

Will you still feel the same way? I think not.... we'll I would hope you'd wake up at that point.
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I wonder if the Libbos who support this BS lose their jobs because of it, will they still support it. Will it still be, "good science"?
 
PeteEU said:
Talk about bull****.

Spain's unemployment has zero to do with them investing heavily in green energy. It has everything to do with an over reliance on the construction industry for the last 2 decades.
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What, they stopped building stuff? They were building stuff because expansion demanded it. Ever think it got too expensive to build stuff, because of green legislation?
 
MrVicchio said:
Would that explain why they didn't watch Obama's infomercial?
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Actually, I think people did not watch it because people had other things they would rather watch. None of that changes that your post was over the top partisan rhetoric. Nice dodge though.
 
MrVicchio said:
Hey DD, if this actually becomes law, and I think it won't, but if it does, and next year the impact of the higher costs to EVVERYTHING we do in life, and the lost jobs kick in...

Will you still feel the same way? I think not.... we'll I would hope you'd wake up at that point.
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If that were to happen, which I doubt it will...but assuming it did. I would not feel the same way....see we aren't like the 30% who still think Bush did a fabulous job.
 
disneydude said:
If that were to happen, which I doubt it will...but assuming it did. I would not feel the same way....see we aren't like the 30% who still think Bush did a fabulous job.
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No, you're the ones taht think this is a good idea. YOU don't know what that climate bill will do, neither do anyone in the senate. They voted without reading it.

So you cannot, CANNOT tell me that it's "scare" tactics by the right, when you don't even know WHAT damage this thing will do.

Now can you?

Of course, you COULD throw it in my face I cannot say that it will hurt anything, but I atleast, have history and common sense on my side, you have...

Emotion only.
 
MrVicchio said:
No, you're the ones taht think this is a good idea. YOU don't know what that climate bill will do, neither do anyone in the senate.
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But you and your crystal ball do? :doh

you are too much
 
apdst said:
What, they stopped building stuff? They were building stuff because expansion demanded it. Ever think it got too expensive to build stuff, because of green legislation?
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They have not stopped building green energy projects. They in fact just put into use a huge next gen solar power plant near here. Plus the state subsidy for solar powered water heaters is still in place.

As for "building stuff".. you have heard of the credit crisis right? The thing you yanks started? I aint saying the Spanish are angels because people have been saying (including their own politicians) for many many years that Spain was far too dependant on the construction industry, but the main reason for the collapse is the credit crisis started by the US.

Spain built more homes than France, Germany and the UK combined each year for quite a considerable number of years the last decade. That is a hell of a lot of homes. These homes and non residents buying them as a second house, pushed up the prices by astronomical figures driving Spanish nationals out of buying homes in certain areas. It was and is so bad that a majority of young people still live at home in their mid 20s and even many in their 30s because they can not afford to buy or rent a hours or flat... this is in the major cities.

Half of the Spanish unemployment is construction related.. at least. The Spanish economy is still coming off 40 years of dictatorship and its labour market and industrial base is still adapting to the changes. It is especially the labour market that has a hard time in adapting and changing and it dont help that the socialists are in power at the moment.. although the conservatives did jack **** when they were in power to change the labour laws.

So no, the Spanish unemployment is not because of investing heavily in green energy. In fact I would call the article a hit piece since there is very little reference material, and I suspect their "facts" came from right wing sources in Spain who have like in the US been against investing in anything green...

Like it or not, investing in green energy takes dependency away from oil and that can only be good regardless of the initial price. Like it or not, Spain produces over 40% of its energy needs from renewables and will soon get over 50% of its energy needs from renewables and like it that will mean that when the economies of the world start working again, and energy (oil) prices go up, Spain will be sitting nicely along with France, Sweden and others who get a large part of their energy from renewables, where as the US will still be hurting and complaining..
 
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PeteEU said:
Talk about bull****.

Spain's unemployment has zero to do with them investing heavily in green energy. It has everything to do with an over reliance on the construction industry for the last 2 decades.
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Care to provide us with some proof?
 
disneydude said:
Its nice to once again have a President that isn't afraid of Science.

The rest of the world was passing us by due to the lack of efforts of the prior administration in advancing alternative energy. Even China is exporting more solar energy than we are right now. This bill is a step in the right direction.
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Some of that "rest of the world" realized that they were going to hell in a handbasket and have regrets... but, alas, we jump into their misguided handbasket.
 
Don't Tase Me Bro said:
Care to provide us with some proof?
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Proof?

BBC NEWS | Business | Big jump in Spanish unemployment
Spain was until recently one of Europe's fastest growing economies, but the global financial crisis has hit the country hard, particularly affecting the property and construction sectors.
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BBC NEWS | Business | Spanish economy shrinks rapidly
The near-collapse of its key construction industry has hit the economy hard.
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http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/06/business/worldbusiness/06iht-ghost.1.6018106.html

Spanish builders constructed 750,000 houses and apartments last year, more than France and Germany combined, while annual demand runs about 60 percent of that, according to the Finance Ministry.
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Spanish home prices have more than doubled since 1998, exceeding growth rates in Britain and Ireland, two of Europe's fastest-growing markets.
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That proof enough?
 
MrVicchio said:
No, you're the ones taht think this is a good idea. YOU don't know what that climate bill will do, neither do anyone in the senate. They voted without reading it.

So you cannot, CANNOT tell me that it's "scare" tactics by the right, when you don't even know WHAT damage this thing will do.

Now can you?

Of course, you COULD throw it in my face I cannot say that it will hurt anything, but I atleast, have history and common sense on my side, you have...

Emotion only.
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So, tell me, have you read this bill? You seem to be quite the expert, so clearly you must have read this in it's entirety as well as every other piece of legislature that passes through congress that you seem to have such expert opinions about. If you have read this and every other bill that you've argued adamantly for or against, I withdraw my statement, but if you have only read political cliff notes then the hypocrisy of this statement is absolutely absurd. Granted, it is equally ridiculous when bills are passed through congress with much less than a glance at said legislature, but unless you have done it yourself, you have no leg to stand on.
 
I've been speed reading the bill and may have posted in error about the tree planting. It appears voluntary. However,other things bother me. States will have to adopt new building codes with strict energy efficiency requirements which are in accordance with International standards. New buildings and substantially renovated older buildings will have to meet the requirements. Your home will be labeled based upon its energy efficiency and will be reported on the tax records. Property appraisers will be required to consider the compliance of your home with the new standards when appraising. If it would cost thousands to bring your home to par,then that is subtracted from the appraisal,thus a bank would loan you less as would a purchaser pay less.This could not come at a worse time for banks holding large portfolios of older homes as they will have to write down the values. One unusual provision is that if the home is efficient and you are borrowing to purchase the home the bank has to add to your income the estimated annual energy savings. More loans to people without income?
 
PeteEU said:
They have not stopped building green energy projects. They in fact just put into use a huge next gen solar power plant near here. Plus the state subsidy for solar powered water heaters is still in place.

As for "building stuff".. you have heard of the credit crisis right? The thing you yanks started? I aint saying the Spanish are angels because people have been saying (including their own politicians) for many many years that Spain was far too dependant on the construction industry, but the main reason for the collapse is the credit crisis started by the US.
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How are they building all this green stuff if there's a credit crisis? Are those projects being paid for with cash? There are contactors in Spain that are that liquid?? I'm guessing, no.
 
underdog334 said:
I've been speed reading the bill and may have posted in error about the tree planting. It appears voluntary. However,other things bother me. States will have to adopt new building codes with strict energy efficiency requirements which are in accordance with International standards. New buildings and substantially renovated older buildings will have to meet the requirements. Your home will be labeled based upon its energy efficiency and will be reported on the tax records. Property appraisers will be required to consider the compliance of your home with the new standards when appraising. If it would cost thousands to bring your home to par,then that is subtracted from the appraisal,thus a bank would loan you less as would a purchaser pay less.This could not come at a worse time for banks holding large portfolios of older homes as they will have to write down the values. One unusual provision is that if the home is efficient and you are borrowing to purchase the home the bank has to add to your income the estimated annual energy savings. More loans to people without income?
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Whatta goddamned joke.
 
disneydude said:
In a huge victory for the Obama Administration:
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Correction. It is a huge victory for the ignorant.

The bill passed lacks the necessary tooth policies required to actually combat emissions. Instead of having hard strict policies on how credits are dolled out, it has questionable writings with only 15% being sold. I highly suspect that without strong writings requiring a decrease in credits given, we'll see the same outcome as Europe and Kyoto, where government simply just gives as many credits to highly polluting industries as they need. Furthermore, the outrageous number of compromises to get the bill through ensures that a great many of polluters will comply with a form rather than a substance of the law, thus failing to actually do what we want.

We should have done something imitating the sulfur market if a cap and trade was the way to go. IMO, the problem with cap and trade is that you must know how much the environment can handle and how much of a change is tolerable. That more or less existed for sulfur. It does not for carbon. Thus, a carbon tax would be preferable as rates could increase to incorporate better information. And we could apply emissions tax on imports that do not build the price in to level the playing field.

This is a bad law that will eventually bite the environmentalists in the butt. Principle it is not a bad idea, but as so many good ideas go into Washington, they turn into total garbage coming out.
 
PeteEU said:
That proof enough?
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It's proof that the industry has had a major negative impact on their economy and undoubtedly makes up a substantial portion of their unemployment rate, however it does not prove, nor is it in any reality, the only reason for their high unemployment rate. It does not disprove that what Caldaza reports is true.

But Calzada's report concludes that they often are temporary and have received $752,000 to $800,000 each in subsidies -- wind industry jobs cost even more, $1.4 million each. And each new job entails the loss of 2.2 other jobs that are either lost or not created in other industries because of the political allocation -- sub-optimum in terms of economic efficiency -- of capital. (European media regularly report "eco-corruption" leaving a "footprint of sleaze" -- gaming the subsidy systems, profiteering from land sales for wind farms, etc.) Calzada says the creation of jobs in alternative energy has subtracted about 110,000 jobs from elsewhere in Spain's economy.
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Democrats off-loading economics to pass climate change bill.-WSJ

"Waxman-Markey would cost the economy $161 billion in 2020, which is $1,870 for a family of four. As the bill's restrictions kick in, that number rises to $6,800 for a family of four by 2035.

Note also that the CBO analysis is an average for the country as a whole. It doesn't take into account the fact that certain regions and populations will be more severely hit than others -- manufacturing states more than service states; coal producing states more than states that rely on hydro or natural gas. Low-income Americans, who devote more of their disposable income to energy, have more to lose than high-income families."

"Even as Democrats have promised that this cap-and-trade legislation won't pinch wallets, behind the scenes they've acknowledged the energy price tsunami that is coming. During the brief few days in which the bill was debated in the House Energy Committee, Republicans offered three amendments: one to suspend the program if gas hit $5 a gallon; one to suspend the program if electricity prices rose 10% over 2009; and one to suspend the program if unemployment rates hit 15%. Democrats defeated all of them."

"Americans should know that those Members who vote for this climate bill are voting for what is likely to be the biggest tax in American history. Even Democrats can't repeal that reality."





U G L Y.....


If environmentalists really want to save the environment so badly they should kill themselves and provide fertlizer for the earth. Much more effective and minimizes the noxious emissions coming out of various orifices.
 
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