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Unimaginable Horror In Tehran Today (Baharestan Square Massacre)

WI Crippler said:
The mistakes we made with Iraq were 1. Not taking him out the first time. We had an international coalition, and there was every justification for removing him from power. We also had a greater number of troops in the area that would have been a help to stabilize the country. 2. When we invaded this time, we went for style over substance. This was Rumsfeld fault for relying too much on the idea of "Shock and Awe" rather than something more appropriate like the Powell Doctrine. We allowed the country to destabilize too easily, after the overthrow was complete. It allowed certain factions to take hold, until Petraus' strategy took over.

Do I believe we made mistakes with Iraq? Sure. We made several as far as the "selling" of the war, and its execution. But I do not believe the war to be unjustified or hypocritical. You must remember, we went into Afghanistan and overthrew their government as well, we didn't just go looking for Osama.
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The reason President Bush the elder gave for not invading was fear of destabilizing the region, which was a pretty legitimate fear. Its easy to look back and second guess, but I kinda respect the guy for not taking extra chances.
 
jallman said:
That's it. Upon confirmation of these reports, we should be willing to send military assistance into Iran. If that's the way it's going to be, arm the protestors with American weapons and join the fight. I don't really see much else we can do if all this is true.
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Is Obama still just "Apalled"? I am looking for his statement but can't seem to get past all that jackson bull****.
 
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WI Crippler said:
Do I believe we made mistakes with Iraq? Sure. We made several as far as the "selling" of the war, and its execution. But I do not believe the war to be unjustified or hypocritical. You must remember, we went into Afghanistan and overthrew their government as well, we didn't just go looking for Osama.
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I still personally believe it's either hypocritical or unjustified (not really sure right now) for us to go into Afghanistan to retaliate against an "attack against America" and then shift the focus to a war in a different country. I mean, we DID overthrow the Afghanistan government as well, but that really just falls into my "fortunate consequence" category. I don't think we were really trying to (at least as far as we were justified in doing). We were supposed to be paying Al-Qaeda back for 9/11 and we didn't really do that. The Afghanistan War was overshadowed for many years by the Iraq War and I don't believe that was right.
 
Reverend_Hellh0und said:
Is Obama still just "Appaulled"? I am looking for his statement but can't seem to get past all that jackson bull****.
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He'll likely put out a statement about Michael Jackson, before he puts one out about the growing situation in Iran.
 
WI Crippler said:
So we took out one.

Thats more than anybody else in the west can claim to have done. So while your busy shifting goalposts, and pointing to all the other troubled spots in the world, maybe you should realize that we did something, somewhere, as opposed to the rest of the free world, who stands by doing absolutely nothing. You should be proud of the work your British troops have done in Iraq and Afghanistan along side the US. Its a bit goddamned more impressive than any effort put forth by anybody else.
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What is there to be proud of?
If we are mentioning humanitarian reasons for our actions in Iraq, why shouldn't i mention other countries which ARE more worthy of US and UK help? Why aren't we helping stop a genocide but we went nuts about invisible weapons?

We did not go to Iraq because of a dictator. We didn't care when we was funding weapons and helping him murder his own people.
Hell, US and UK refused to condemn the actions Iraq had took against Iran in the UN, chemical weapons because he was our "friend"
We sure as hell didn't care he was a oppressive, murderous dictator then did we? We brushed aside human rights and democracy as if it was nothing then.
Why was it so different in 2003?
 
WI Crippler said:
He'll likely put out a statement about Michael Jackson, before he puts one out about the growing situation in Iran.
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I sitll have found nothing out there to confirm this story. A few repeats of the original, and one claim the axe wound victim was faked(by some guy who claimed to have done forensic work...not reliable from what I saw). Isn't it a bit early to be giving Obama a hard time based on an unconfirmed report?
 
Redress said:
I sitll have found nothing out there to confirm this story. A few repeats of the original, and one claim the axe wound victim was faked(by some guy who claimed to have done forensic work...not reliable from what I saw). Isn't it a bit early to be giving Obama a hard time based on an unconfirmed report?
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I think our whole point in this thread is "if it can be confirmed". I am pretty sure, that Obama knows if this is true or not. We've got to have feet on the ground over there. What I don't know, is where he would stand if it were true, or if he would ever do more than vocalize his discomfort with such actions.
 
Red_Dave said:
Regan helped the government of El Salvador to do pretty much the same things that the Iranian government is doing now so I think its fair to say the worlds better off without him
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Oh please the Sandinistas, Soviets and Cubans were sponsoring FALN slaughter in El Salvador against a democratically elected government which came to power in 1984 (Christian Democrat Jose Duarte who was succeeded in a peaceful democratic transfer of power by ARENA's Alfredo Cristiani) so the U.S. and El Salvador exercised our mutual right to collective defense.
 
WI Crippler said:
I think our whole point in this thread is "if it can be confirmed". I am pretty sure, that Obama knows if this is true or not. We've got to have feet on the ground over there. What I don't know, is where he would stand if it were true, or if he would ever do more than vocalize his discomfort with such actions.
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I really do not see us being in a good position to put boots on the ground over there. Iraq and Afghanistan have our military pretty busy and have logistics pretty tied up. I suspect that by the time we could get enough force there, this will all be long blown over.

How many troops do you think we would need to "put boots on the ground"?
 
Any cop ever called in by neighbors over to a domestic disturbance will tell you never turn your back on the wife getting beaten. She will turn on you quicker than a cobra as soon as you lay hands on the husband.


Until the united people of Iran CALL us publicly to clear out the mullahs then we should be hands off until then. Coming in to stop the violence is a stop gap solution at best. The US will be painted the bad guy like before. As it is now I suspect the guy with the tanks will prevail.

Now would be a good time though logistically. Soldiers currently in Iraq for a time could just cross the street.
 
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biggest mistake we could make would be to go to the middle of the mid-east and try to "clear out the mullahs". I like cowboy movies as well as anyone, but this one would not have a happy ending.
 
WillRockwell said:
biggest mistake we could make would be to go to the middle of the mid-east and try to "clear out the mullahs". I like cowboy movies as well as anyone, but this one would not have a happy ending.
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Why would that cause people to be massacered? Oh wait.... :ssst:
 
Redress said:
I really do not see us being in a good position to put boots on the ground over there. Iraq and Afghanistan have our military pretty busy and have logistics pretty tied up. I suspect that by the time we could get enough force there, this will all be long blown over.

How many troops do you think we would need to "put boots on the ground"?
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I meant that we have to have people on the ground over there right now, reporting back whats going on with regards to the riots. Intel and such. Thats what I meant by, "We must have boots on the ground over there" Meaning we already have people over there, keeping Obama aware of the situation.
 
Agent Ferris said:
Oh please the Sandinistas, Soviets and Cubans were sponsoring FALN slaughter in El Salvador against a democratically elected government which came to power in 1984 (Christian Democrat Jose Duarte who was succeeded in a peaceful democratic transfer of power by ARENA's Alfredo Cristiani) so the U.S. and El Salvador exercised our mutual right to collective defense.
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Sure but he got up to alot before he was elected [and the election in question left alot to be desired] are you dennying his links with death squads?
 
Red_Dave said:
Sure but he got up to alot before he was elected [and the election in question left alot to be desired] are you dennying his links with death squads?
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The U.S. actually financed Duarte's campaign against Cristiani but Cristiani was in fact democratically elected in free and fair elections.
 
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Agent Ferris said:
A) It was a free and fair election.

B) The U.S. actually financed Duarte's campaign against Cristiani but Cristiani was in fact democratically elected in free and fair elections.
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Free and fair save for the presence of death squads killing off the opossition
 
50 years ago we went into Iran at the behest of the British and that is what contributed towards getting us into this mess in the first place. We helped overthrow Mossadegh, installed the Shah and the rest is history.

I think we need to look at long term rather than short term strategies, myself, and rushing in now runs the risk of a backlash similar to that of our earlier involvement. It would also take the impetus for change away from the Iranian people and that is the worst thing to do IMO. Change has to come from within, and so our role should be to help make sure the world knows what is really going on there. We should be pointing out how Palestinian goons are being imported to do much of the dirty work, especially inasmuch as THEY are the foreigners here, not us. By illuminating the fact that it is Palestinians killing Iranians, we can establish that our own intent isn't to invade, and perhaps even wake up a few Europeans in the process.

I'm not against offering assistance, but nascent movement like this needs time to coalesce into something more organized. Otherwise, there is no valid structure in place to replace the rotton one.
 
Red_Dave said:
Free and fair save for the presence of death squads killing off the opossition
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You had death squads on both sides, however, the elections themselves were free and fair and I'll remind you that ARENA was instrumental in bringing an end to the civil war.
 
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Agent Ferris said:
You had death squads on both sides, however, the elections themselves were free and fair.
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Agreed on the former but not the latter. How can elections be free and fair without the freedom of both sides to express their opionions? Still what is without a doubt is that a government whose forces raped nuns killed preists and massacred indians is in no way superior to todays Iranian government.
 
Red_Dave said:
Agreed on the former but not the latter. How can elections be free and fair without the freedom of both sides to express their opionions?
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They still expressed their opinions, the elections in Iraq allthough marred by violence were still free and fair as were elections in the Palestinian territories, Lebanon, and numerous other hotspots.

Still what is without a doubt is that a government whose forces raped nuns killed preists and massacred indians is in no way superior to todays Iranian government.
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It was a civil war, bad things happen during wartime and those responsible for the rape and murder of the nuns were found guilty and sentenced to prison, the Cristiani government which was instrumental in ending the civil war and accepted free and fair democratic elections and the peaceful transfer of power to the opposition was far superior to the current Iranian theocracy.
 
It has now been confirmed:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRuG7nM2AMQ]YouTube - The View from the balcony - police and basijis VS people of Iran, Baharestan June 24.[/ame]

It's a grainy video and it's hard to tell what's going on but the gunshots are clearly audible.
 
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Doesn't anyone in Tehran have a decent video camera? Jesus, I'm tired of looking at phone video.
 
WillRockwell said:
Doesn't anyone in Tehran have a decent video camera? Jesus, I'm tired of looking at phone video.
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Anyone with a camera has been a target for beating and arrest. Sometimes, the only video available is cell video.
 
NDNdancer said:
Anyone with a camera has been a target for beating and arrest. Sometimes, the only video available is cell video.
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Yeh, but when most of the video is shot out of windows and out of public view, seems like there could be better quality.
 
WillRockwell said:
Yeh, but when most of the video is shot out of windows and out of public view, seems like there could be better quality.
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If you want to run right over there and get some good quality video, have at it. :roll:


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